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New RPG Card Game Idea Thanks to MarkKreitler! Still needs a name!

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Team Gambit
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Hey guys Dan here and after reading the awesome post about how to be taken seriously by producers I started thinking of new game ideas that I've been trying to bury in my mind while I focused on Zodiak.

I've had an idea for a simple card game that sort of takes from Raw Deal's (Man I Feel Old) overall mechanics but I didn't know how to go about executing it. That was unit a few days ago when I read a very awesome post about a very awesome dice mechanic for an RPG game.

MarkKreitler posted on another person's topic a few days ago introducing a theory for a game mechanic where the layout of the card is used to keep track of its own stats, while using Dice to combat.

Here’s a link to that post: http://www.bgdf.com/node/7024

So I'm sitting at my desk at work bored out of my mind and it hits me. I know a great way to use that mechanic and combine it with one of my favorite card games Raw Deal!

Game Summary:
In Raw Deal a player used a "face card" as his/her character and a deck to back up that character. The deck was used as your overall move set and life support. In this game hand size never mattered because you needed "fortitude" in order to play cards and cards are what gave you fortitude.
(I know that’s a terrible explanation but that's the best way I can explain it right now)

In this game (For now lets call it Mystics). A player uses 3 "face cards" choosing from 3 different Types (Mage, Warrior, and Defender). To back up the face cards you would have a deck of 40 cards. Each card in the deck would have 2 numbers on it. 1 for gold (which in this situation would be equivalent to fortitude) and another for XP earned.

How I incorporate the dice mechanic:
So we've discussed how this game is similar to Raw Deal but not how I plan to incorporate the dice mechanic MarkKreitler came up with. His mechanic in theory makes the game more RPG based by allowing you to level up your characters (or face cards) and increasing their stats.

Example:

Xaphan is a mage and begins the game with 1 Red die (attack), 1 Blue die (defense), and 2 Purple die (magic/mana). As Xaphan level’s up I can add a die to one of his classes thus making him stronger and increasing his probability of dealing damage, etc.

How to level up:
There would be a couple of different ways to level up your face cards. One way you could do it is by adding up the XP from all the cards you’ve played equal to your face card’s XP requirements. All you would do is turn all your cards side ways to show the XP on them has been used but the Gold value would still be available to you.

The second way to level up is to purchase the level increase with a card effect.
Example: Troll Catapult says “Add 1 attack dice to a face card” and has a purchase cost of $500G.
You would need to gather all the cards that equal 500G and turn them upside down showing that they had been spent. If a card has been spent it cannot be used for your gold or XP values any longer.

What Happens when you level up?
Add a die to your preferred class.

How to Win:
Defeat your opponent’s 3 face cards or deck them out.

So what now?
This game is very simple and I haven’t been really pondering it for to long because as soon as the Raw Deal aspect popped into my head I started typing this out (which explains why its all over the place…Sorry…). Mystics seems simple enough to get started and I can see it being a lot of fun. I’ve already talked to my Zodiak Developers about it and they seem very excited to get started so I suppose we’ll see where this all goes.

One thing I need help with is the Magic. Attack and Defense are easy to do and figure out but what would magic give to the game? What would it do? Why is it important? How should I use it? I was thinking of a cost system where you could use magic to complete different card effects or negate them and than I started thinking of custom dice where instead of a standard D6, magic dice would have different faces on them tell you…stuff? I’m not sure yet but I was hoping you guys could help me.

Can’t wait to hear form all of you!

MarkKreitler
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Cool!

Hey TG,

First, thanks for giving me a nod. You needn't have, especially considering how much you've added and changed, but I appreciate the fact you did. :-)

This is a neat direction, and though I never played Raw Deal, the bits I've read seem like a good fit with your design. As for magic, I have a couple of ideas. Well, one, anyway, and it's not just about magic.

So, imagine using custom dice. Attack dice have faces 1-4 and two special symbols, as do defense dice (though the special symbols differ). Magic dice have faces 1-2 and four special symbols (maybe the elements, as a clichéd example).

Then, on the cards, in addition to xp and gold, there is an Ability and a required activation roll. When a player rolls his dice, he can choose to execute any of the Abilities on the cards he has played, assuming he polls the right activation symbols.

Abilities can d Amy number of ridiculous things, from damage bonuses to deck ordering to hearing damage, but once you activate a card's ability, you can no longer claim gold or xp.

Example:
Vandrik the Mage rolls his magic dice and gets two 'fire' symbols. This allows him to activate the Fireball ability on the card he played last round. He does so, following the instructions to re-roll his magic dice, doing 4 damage per die plus 4 for each fire symbol in the re-roll. Vandrik rolls his 3 magic dice, getting 1 fire symbol. He inflicts 16 damage, then removes the fireball card from play.

Abilities needn't be purely magic, or magic in any way. Suppose the symbols on the attack dice are a sword and a bow. One can imagine a "quick shot" skill that allows the attack to add 3 to his defense roll (because he used his bow instead of his sword).

Or something like that. I don't have a good enough feel for the details of you rules to know how badly I'm violating them...

Looking forward to seeing how your design takes shape.

Team Gambit
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Not sure if I'm looking to

Not sure if I'm looking to the route of custom dice yet but I am very interested in the options it gives me.

Also leveling up give you more dice sure but does that mean more damage? Or do that mean you have a higher probability of dealing more damage?

Example: I have 2 defense dice and you rolled a 6 on an attack one. I roll and get a 3 and roll again and get a 1. Does this mean you only do 2 damage to me or do you go 3 damage to me because I go with the higher roll?

If you add the number than face cards need more health or something...

Maybe they need to level up! Not just saying "OK now Xaphan is lv 2" no you put a Lv 2 face card on your Lv 1. Now you have a Vanguard type game!

Sooooo many options!

MarkKreitler
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Good points

Team Gambit wrote:
Not sure if I'm looking to the route of custom dice yet but I am very interested in the options it gives me.

You could use the dice colors instead of symbols to work around this. In fact, it might work better.

Examples:
Block Ability -- Activation roll = 4 or more on black dice; effect: +4 defense until next turn
Fireball -- Activation roll = 3 or more on black dice, 4 or more on green dice; effect: 8 damage
Heal -- Activation roll = 3 or more on white dice, 3 or more on green dice; effect: regain 4 hit points

Team Gambit wrote:
Also leveling up give you more dice sure but does that mean more damage? Or do that mean you have a higher probability of dealing more damage?

Example: I have 2 defense dice and you rolled a 6 on an attack one. I roll and get a 3 and roll again and get a 1. Does this mean you only do 2 damage to me or do you go 3 damage to me because I go with the higher roll?

Either one works, it's just a question of how you want your game to feel. Like you say, "highest roll" allows you to have fewer hit points, overall. On the other hand, once players start getting 4 or more dice, you'll start seeing '6' a lot, which could make the game drag on.

Team Gambit wrote:
Maybe they need to level up! Not just saying "OK now Xaphan is lv 2" no you put a Lv 2 face card on your Lv 1. Now you have a Vanguard type game!

Sooooo many options!

Yup! It all boils down to your design goals. Once you decide how you want the game to feel, you'll know which options to test.

Meanwhile, I think I'm going to test this dicing system in a simple RPG this weekend...

Good luck to us both!

Team Gambit
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I'll let you know how it

I'll let you know how it goes. I just spent $30 on a ton of dice and I'm on Photoshop now making the card layouts. I'm off all weekend so I'll keep this thread updated with my results.

MarkKreitler
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Sweet!

Team Gambit wrote:
I'll let you know how it goes. I just spent $30 on a ton of dice and I'm on Photoshop now making the card layouts. I'm off all weekend so I'll keep this thread updated with my results.

Looking forward to it!

Awaclus
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This is a very interesting

This is a very interesting project. MarkKreitler's idea is an elegant way of doing slightly non-elegant things, and you're exploiting it in a way that somehow feels right.

Good luck!

Team Gambit
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Thanks guys,

So I spent the last couple hours working on a prototype and I think I have something.

http://i50.tinypic.com/34t4jg6.png

The link will take you to a card I just made. This is by no means a final but it is pretty damn close (if the mechanics pan out). This face card is a Defender hence the blue frame corresponding with the blue defense dice and where it says defender in the text box.

Each class will have the same sort of layout. Their color will correspond with their class and dice.

Let me know what you guys think.

MarkKreitler
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Gorgeous!

That's looking great! Nice, clean layout.

Wish I had that kind of talent.

I'd already buy the game. :)

Team Gambit
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hahahaha don't get my hopes

hahahaha don't get my hopes up! lol

Still need to work on some game mechanics but I think I'll have a finished prototype by tomorrow.

>no life< -.-

Team Gambit
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New Name

I think we'll be naming this game Bello

Spanish: Handsome
Latin: War, fight, battle, bloodshed

New Meaning: Beautiful War!

Team Gambit
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I've hit a wall! Help me please!

ok so I know I'm posting on my own posts and I apologize I'm not trying to bump a dead topic (if it has indeed died) I just didn't see the point of starting a new thread explaining everything to ask a simple question.

How should I do the gold and XP? As we discussed before every Unit (face card) and enchantment would have a gold value. In order to play an enchantment you must first have gold in your stockpile (cards that have already been played) at least equal to the gold value on the enchantment.

My question is, is it okay for the game to move so fast when building your stockpile? How I have it now, the gold value between your 3 starting Units at least equals 600G. The first enchantment you play can get you as much as 1200G and if you play 2 than your at least up to 2400G. At this point you can level up a Unit in just the first turn. Being that the dice rolls just increase probability and not actual damage is this a problem?

Also does anyone have an Idea of the XP to Gold ratio that should be on the cards?

Should the level condition for gold be lower than the XP? I only ask because if you level up with XP than you still have your gold value which than you can just cash in that gold value and level up again in the same turn or right after.

I know you guys haven't gotten the chance to play test this game so you have no first hand experience but your a group of very creative people so I'm hoping you may be able to shed some insight on this dilemma.

Team Gambit
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Next Steps

Alright so I made a prototype and played it a few times last night and besides some uncertain mechanics the game played very smoothly. The overall game takes about 20 - 30 minutes to play and the best part about it is that you don't have to play 1 on 1. Without even meaning too the game allows for additional players to join in the battle.

I'm very excited to bring this game to the next step and see if we can get something produced. Because of the game's simplicity I may also look into getting it tablet based as well.

Mechanics that need to be polished:
How often you can roll a defense dice.
Starting amount of treasure.
cost vs gain.
tracking levels.
healing based on leveling up.

Prototype Images:
http://www.bgdf.com/node/7090
http://www.bgdf.com/node/7091

I'll post on this thread with my progress.

Also I still need help with the name so if you have any suggestions please let me know.

VorpalPhoenix
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gold / xp sinks

You could add in abilities or requirements to remove cards from play so that once you played 1 card it doesn't mean you have it for the rest of the game, and probably should if some of the cards are magical effects or items.

This would lower the overall amount of gold/xp available to all players since there would be more cards removed from play before both their xp/gold could be utilized. Would require testing and balancing and you might not want to use this if it would add too many more cards into the decks.

Another idea is to have cards be played for either gold or xp, but never both.

I think you could handle levels by just putting on a card that for Y XP you can add 1 die, (possibly different Y values for different colored die depending on type of hero/champion) so that you just leave the dice on the card when not being rolled to show everyone what level the champion currently is. Don't know if your game would have that many spare dice though.

Team Gambit
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Great Minds Think Alike

I had the same idea of having some cards cost gold in order to play.

Pros and cons of that.

Pros: Takes longer to level up and build gold. Adds some serious thinking to the game and doesn't let you start stacking cards out of the gate.

Cons. It takes to long to level up. You need gold to play other cards that require gold so cost would delay the game. Also the game allows for unlimited players to play against eachother so if counters cost gold than your gold reserves will often be emptied before your second turn and you'll have more than likely lost the game by than.

I figured out leveling as well. It doesn't really need to be a stationary factor. It can be left up for players to decide how to keep track. I personally used 3 different dice to keep track of each Unit's lv as the game progressed. Though knowing the level isn't exactly important since it does nothing to the game.

Also all enchantments have a "counter condition" on them that will give your opponent a chance to negate the card's effect by rolling a certain dice try to get a specific number. If your opponent succeeds you lose the XP from the card but it still goes into your stockpile and give you the gold value. This helps to create strategy and encourages baiting tactics.

Zodiak Team
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I'm really excited for

I'm really excited for everyone to see the finished product. After talking over some game mechanics with the rest of the Zodiak/Gambit team I don't think we're finally set on the name Bello! it maye sound a little too Italian for our liking and doesn't reveal itself to be related to the Zodiak franchise (if and when it is a franchise).

Future changes may include calling the game "Zodiak Conflicts", "Z-War", ''Zodiak: Clash of Heros".

Also counters may end up costing gold but will have to work on a different system requiring less amount while Action and equipment enchantments give more.

We are also working on allowing for multiple players and different tournament styles; such as using 5 Units (face cards) instead of 3 for traditional play and 3 Units for Advanced or standard.

We realized that Bello! can be played in teams of 2 fairly easily. and when it comes to 3 Player teams, each player may need to drop down to 1 Unit each to have the game continue to run smoothly.

There are some new pictures of Bello! on the Zodiak Twitter account is anyone is interested and that can be found here: https://twitter.com/ZodiakTCG

Any suggestions you guys might have on how to improve our game or who to go to once we have things in order please let us know. We may actually look into making this game tablet accessible because of its simplicity. If you know how to do that and your interested in joining or just interested in joining our team in general please message me at ZodiakTCG@Gmail.com

Thanks again BGDF community.

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