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Heist: The game where alliances mean nothing and money means everything!

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Some Random Dude
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Joined: 01/30/2014

EDIT: Edited rules are found on reply #11. Thanks!

I've always been intrigued with bank robberies. I really enjoy movies and tv shows that have a robbery in them. They are very tense situations that rely on everyone trusting another criminal. That's why I was very disappointed when I found out there isn't really any (good) heist-themed games out there! I set out to work on one.

I started out designing a very deep, rules heavy, mechanic-driven game. After many rewrites and difficulties getting some subtleties to work out, I scrapped everything and decided to make it more of a player-driven, role-taking game. It is in the same vein as games like Werewolf, Mafia, The Resistance, etc., but with a few key tweaks like changing roles and no "night phase" (where everyone has to close their eyes and do things in secret). It is all about who you can trust each turn, knowing that the trust may not be there next turn.

In the next post, I'll put the rules for the game. I have a larger document typed up, but A) my computer is giving me fits, and B) I wanted to retype the information anyway to clean it up as I go.

Thanks for any feedback you can provide!

Some Random Dude
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Joined: 01/30/2014
The Rules!

Heist is a role-taking, bluffing game where alliances mean nothing and money means everything. Each turn, "The Boss" (the active player) chooses other players to go with him on a heist. The other players all have roles that are randomly dealt to them each turn, and only they know. The first thing to do each game is shuffle The Loot Deck (30 cards with a single number on them to signify how much you're playing for each round) and The Police Pursuit Deck (cards numbered from 1 to X, where X is the number of players in the game), give The Boss card to the first player, and form the role deck with X+2 role cards, where X is the number of players.

Goal: Each player has dice that keep track of how much money they have. The first player to 20 wins!

Game Phases:

Start of the Turn - The Boss shuffles the role cards and deals one to each player facedown, who looks at it and does not show anyone else. The remaining two cards are placed in the center of the table so that no one can see them, not even The Boss.

Forming the Team - The Boss flips over the top card of the Loot deck, which tells them how much money they are trying to score, and then invites others to go on the heist with them. The other players lobby to get on the team by making deals with The Boss and oftentimes lying through their teeth about who they are.

Police Pursuit - The Boss flips over the top card of the Police Pursuit deck. This deck has cards numbered from 1 to X, where X is the number of players in the game (NOT the number on the current team). If the number on the card is EQUAL OR LOWER than the number of players on the team, the heist fails. This means that the smaller the team, the easier it is to get away and hide. The larger the team, the harder - there are more cars, more details they can piece together from witnesses, more people who have ties to others, etc.

Payoff - Each player gets the amount of money that The Boss agreed for them to have at the beginning. HOWEVER, there could be a traitor in the midst. If the Undercover Cop was on the team, the heist fails and NO ONE gets money (except the Undercover Cop, who gets a set amount for doing his job). Then gather all the role cards to prepare for next turn.

The Roles (in parentheses is the phase they reveal themselves and use their ability):

The Boss (always known)- Chooses who gets to go on the heist and what they'll get out of it. Also, they are the ones who deal out the roles facedown EACH turn. This means other players never have the same role from turn to turn unless it is randomly dealt to them again. The Boss stays The Boss until they fail a heist, at which point it goes to the next player.

The Undercover Cop (Payoff) - If the Undercover Cop reveals themselves, the heist fails and they gain 3 money.

The Muscle (Payoff) - The Muscle cancels the Undercover Cop.

The Wheelman (Police Pursuit) - The Wheelman can reveal themselves if the team fails to get away from the Police Pursuit. If they do, the team automatically succeeds.

The Safecracker (Payoff) - If The Safecracker is on the team, he and The Boss each get 2 extra money on a successful heist.

Narc (End of Forming the Team) - If The Narc is on the team, they reveal themselves to remove another player from the team and reveals their role.

Body Double (Payoff) - The Body Double was really The Boss the whole time! If they reveal themselves, they switch payoffs with The Boss, and they are The Boss the next turn.

The Pickpocket (Forming the Team) - If The Pickpocket is NOT on the team, they can steal 1 money from a player on the team of their choice.

Theif (N/A) - Theives have nothing to really offer the rest of the team. They have no negative effect for The Boss, other than taking their money, but no positive effect either.

Leeton
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Joined: 04/28/2013
At first glance it seems this

At first glance it seems this way, but I could be wrong.

Is there any actual gain for The Boss to pick more than one person to go on the heist with him? If they pick more than one the chances of being caught are greatly increased. Since they remain The Boss for a success, the obvious tactic is to pick one person each heist and steamroll through it.

Naturally, the roles would lead to this not being a guaranteed win, as having a negative role as player 2 on the heist would lose The Boss's position. But then wouldn't that new player just keep going on heists with one other person?

There's also only 1 of the 8 roles that completely messes up The Boss (and that's the undercover cop). The other 7 roles would guarantee a success and in turn keep The Boss in his position. So there's a 14% chance that The Boss will pick the undercover cop. While deception and bluffing plays a major part in the game, it still ultimately comes down to the probability of the card being picked.

You might want to reassess the role of the pursuit cards or revalue them to make them less of a threat. Or maybe add more cards that can sabotage the heist. As it stands, there isn't much threat The Boss or the heist and it would pretty much be a dash for points without an overly large amount of deception.

I really like the idea though and I'm a fan of The Resistance, so looking forward to seeing where this goes. :)

Some Random Dude
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Joined: 01/30/2014
Thanks for your quick

Thanks for your quick reply!

Originally I had it that The Boss had to take a minimum of 2 others. This way there was a greater chance of failing. There's a balance keeping you from taking everyone, but yes the minimum wasn't really balanced well. I guess that's where the lobbying would take control. But you're right, maybe having a minimum of 3 on a heist (2 plus The Boss), and also skewing the Pursuit deck to have a few more low numbers in it.

Another rule I had originally, and might put back in, is to limit The Boss to either two or three heists. This way they can't just keep going non-stop.

Or, another idea: You draw more loot cards the more players there are on the team. So, instead of drawing the cards first, you actually pick the team first, THEN draw. The Boss would always get first pick on which one they get, and that could be part of the lobbying i.e. "I'm The Wheelman, I'll go with you for the second choice of loot", etc. This would give them incentive to take more people, giving them a greater chance to get a higher valued card. Thoughts?

I also had a specific card in the Loot deck that made The Boss role move to the next player, but I scrapped that as I didn't want it to show up on someone's first turn and ruin their fun.

Leeton
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Joined: 04/28/2013
Limiting the number of times

Limiting the number of times someone can be The Boss before it passes on could work. This has both pros and cons. The good thing is it keeps it shifting and keeps one player from being The Boss for the entire thing. However, it also reduces the significance of being The Boss. If you know you only have X turns to be The Boss, it could turn to a form of limiting the amount of money actually lost, rather than maximising it. You'd need to balance it so The Boss is most likely to get the most.

I like the though of adding a number of loot cards to each mission. The Boss might be happy to take 1/3 of the cut and give someone else a bigger cut, purely for the support they'd offer. It'd definitely offer a nice variety to it and add extra incentive to the lobbying.

I think you were right to remove that card from the loot. Not only for the reason you said, but it would also detract from the theme.

Random thought: You could add a greater layer of deception to it. The boss places the loot cards face-down (having seen them) and tells the players what they are. They lobby for what they think is true, then find out after the heist what they actually are. This gives The Boss an opportunity to screw over people with empty bags, lower cash amounts than he proposed, etc.
It would add an extra layer to the heists and give extra ways to ween out the liars from the honest. It'd also give an undercover cop more chance to slip in, maybe securing a spot on the team by going for a small amount while the others duke it out over the big gains.

Mansemat
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Joined: 11/19/2013
Kinda too bad you dropped

Kinda too bad you dropped your first idea for rules. One of my less active projects is also a Heist Game and I'd love to see other people's takes on it... Then again it might not be a good idea to see that stuff since I might be discouraged or base on it too much.

My heist/robbery game basically has 3 factions and a possible fourth neutral one (cops, robbers, bank & civilians) and currently I'm working on figuring out how these three can work together in such a way that robber players would still be able to do a "perfect heist".
I'm currently en route to a kind of... 3 dungeon masters against eachother... if that makes any sense.
It's also currently a combination between a descent-like semi-strategy semi rpg with some worker placement elements... But things might change later since I'm too busy with my other projects (instead of working on those i should focus on reviewing my changed Manges-toutes manual mais bon...)

Anyways, like your idea (gotta read it again tomorrow at a more pleasant time when i'm not as tired but still)

rene.shible
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Joined: 01/30/2014
what a great discussion!

So it may not need to be said that this is quite reminiscent of The Resistance ... in a rather good way! In saying that, there were two things done in The Resistance that address some of the issues you and Leeton have discussed.

1) Changing the boss each turn, instead of a set number of turns or only when the body double appears. This works best when the risk and reward of being the boss is pushed further.

2) A required number of players involved in heists. Maybe each job should feature a required players value... and the boss can choose to exceed that value, although it may not be wise. This works best when the benefits and detriments of each role are more clearly defined and more self-evident, adding to the tension of each round.

Also, and I know I end up saying this a lot on this forum, but... I would totally play this! This sounds like great fun!

rene.shible
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Joined: 01/30/2014
also..

I'm totally down with how few components there are to this.

Some Random Dude
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Joined: 01/30/2014
Thanks for the feedback!

Sorry folks, I like quick turnaround in my responses, but with school, work, the kids, and moving I haven't had a chance to address some things.

It definitely is inspired by The Resistance, which is interesting since I have yet to play that! I've seen it played before though. The key difference I want to keep a hold of is the changing roles each turn and that you are playing for an individual victory. This makes it more thematic, with alliances changing throughout.

Another thought I had to address the One Boss to rule them all problem is to add a push your luck element. Each round, a boss can choose to stop where he is, or go on another heist. If he goes again, and he is arrested (meaning the Undercover Cop was there or they failed the police pursuit) then he loses everything he has gotten in his current stint as The Boss.

To address the Police a Pursuit balance, how about making it a d6 roll instead, and any roll of a 1 (and maybe 2) is a failure? Gets rid of the issue of always taking the minimum, and reduces the number of cards needed for the game.

I really like the idea of hidden loot. That makes a lot of sense, where The Boss gives people lower amounts.

Also, the low amount of components is something in very found of too!

kos
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Joined: 01/17/2011
Payoff and choosing the team

Interesting ideas in the OP and the thread.

I agree that the the rules as originally expressed would create the scenario where the Boss would take the minimum number of people every time, in order to maximize their cut of the loot. The suggestion to deal loot per team member which the Boss splits would alleviate this problem, with added fun if there is a big spread of value between the loot cards. Bigger team means more risk but more reward. The downside here is that every round is the same (no info on roles, and no info on the loot, so nothing to base a decision on). Maybe the first loot card is deal face up before deciding who wants to come on the team.

Prior to reading that suggestion, I had a different idea which may address the same problem but in a different way. Keep the single loot card which the Boss reveals up front and splits at the end, but give each role two abilities: one for being on the team, and one for being off the team. Off-the-team abilities reduce the chance of success, so if you leave too many people off the team you can't win (they rat you out to the cops because you didn't bring them along). But if you take everybody your cut is too small.

Another suggestion which I thought of to deal with the same issue in a different way: Make the difficulty for success based on the size of the loot. So for a larger loot the Boss needs to bring more people, but then the risk of turncoats also increases. This method could also eliminate the randomiser (cards/dice) -- each role has a skill level printed on it; the team needs to equal or exceed the difficulty of the heist to take the loot.

Regards,
kos

Some Random Dude
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Joined: 01/30/2014
Thanks everyone for your input!

I've made some changes to the rules as they stand, taking advantage of the great advice everyone has given. I'm addressing the way The Boss can run away with it (changing Boss every turn), made sure there is a negative effect for taking a minimum team (most roles have an ability that hurts the heist), added an element of uncertainty to the Loot for all players, reduced the number of components (WHAT?! Even fewer components?!), and changed a few logistical issues of when things happen.

The only thing I'm not completely happy about is that I've added a static random effect to the Police Pursuit. Instead of a card that compares itself to the number of players, I just made it a simple die roll that has the same target number. I know the rules aren't 100% ready to go, but as it stands I could play the game with just a deck of playing cards cards (and a conversion table for what's what), a six-sided die, and a pad of paper. So, maybe I'll get some play testing in soon, if I can convince my family to give it a shot!

The rules are in the next post. Let me know what you think! I've included tips at the end too, that would be included in the rules, but also to explain a few things in terms of strategy and why some rules work a certain way. And I'm always willing to add more roles if you think of any.

Some Random Dude
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Joined: 01/30/2014
The Rules - 2.0

HEIST

Heist is a role-taking, bluffing game with negotiation, where players team up to rob banks. Each turn, one player is “The Boss” and determines what they’re playing for, who is on his team, and who gets what loot. The Goal of the game is to be the first player to have $30.

Components:

Role Cards (10) – These represent the types of roles each player takes on the heist. There is one of each special role, and two thieves.

Loot Cards (20 - number in parentheses is the amount of each card) – Six (1), Five (3), Four (3), Three (4), Two (4), One (3), Empty Money Bag (2)

A single d6
Dice, tokens, or a notepad to keep track of the money ($)

Phases:

Start of the Turn - The Boss shuffles the role cards and deals one to each player face down, who looks at it and does not show anyone else. The remaining cards are placed in the center of the table so that no one can see them, not even The Boss.

Forming the Team – The Boss deals X cards to himself from the top of the Loot deck, where X is the number of players in the game. Secretly, he examines these cards, and then puts them face down on the table. He may say anything he would like about the cards he sees, to let the others know what they are trying to rob, but he does not need to tell the truth. Each other player then lobbies to get themselves on the team. They do this, often, by lying and making shady deals (for instance, one might say “I’m the Wheelman, and I’ll go on your team for the first choice of loot”). Once the team is formed, the Boss takes the Loot cards he has, shuffles them, then deals the top Y cards face down in front of him, where Y is the number of players on the team. The rest are shuffled back into the Loot deck.

Police Pursuit – The Boss rolls a d6, and on a roll of a 1 the heist fails.

The Double Cross – If the Undercover Cop is on the team, they may reveal themselves. If they do (and The Muscle isn’t on the team), the heist fails.

Payoff – If the heist did not fail, flip over the Loot cards. Each player, in the order designated by The Boss at the beginning, takes a loot card of their choice, and adds that much money to their stash. If the heist did fail, no one takes any loot cards.

End of the Turn - Return all the Loot cards to the Loot deck, shuffling them together. Gather all the role cards. The Boss gives his role card to the player on their left.

The Roles:

Each role card has two abilities, with the exception of The Boss. One ability is what happens when they are on the team and one when they are off the team. Listed below is each role, with their abilities and the phases they are used in parentheses.

The Boss (always known) – Sets the pace of the game. The Boss chooses who gets to go on the heist and what they'll get out of it. Also, they are the ones who deal out the roles face down each turn. This means other players never have the same role from turn to turn unless it is randomly dealt to them again.

The Undercover Cop - (On the Team, The Double Cross) If the Undercover Cop reveals himself, the heist fails and they gain $3. (Off the Team, Police Pursuit) If the heist fails, the Undercover Cop gains $2.

The Muscle - (On the Team, The Double Cross) The Muscle cancels the Undercover Cop on the team. This means that the heist does not fail due to their special ability, they do not gain $3, AND they do not gain any Loot. The Muscle gets to take the Undercover Boss’ loot during the Payoff. (Off the Team, The Double Cross) The Muscle can lose $1 to discard 1 face down Loot card.

The Wheelman - (On the Team, Police Pursuit) The Wheelman can reveal themselves if the team fails to get away from the Police Pursuit. If they do, the team automatically succeeds. (Off the Team, Police Pursuit) The Wheelman may make The Boss reroll the Police Pursuit die.

The Safecracker - (On the Team, Payoff) If the heist was successful, The Safecracker and The Boss each gain $2. (Off the Team, Forming the Team) The Safecracker may look at the Loot cards and choose which ones are returned to the deck.

Narc - (On the Team, Forming the Team) The Narc reveals himself to remove another player from the team and reveal their role. The Boss chooses who gets the removed players Payoff. (Off the Team, Forming the Team) The Narc chooses a player who reveals their role card. The Narc may perform that players Off the Team ability this turn.

Body Double - (On the Team, End of the Payoff) The Body Double was really The Boss the whole time! If they reveal themselves, they switch payoffs with The Boss, and they are The Boss the next turn. (Off the Team, Forming the Team) The Body Double chooses a player who is on the team and switches roles with them. They do not show any other players their new role.

The Pickpocket – (On the Team, Forming the Team) The Pickpocket gains $1. (Off the Team, Forming the Team) The Pickpocket can steal $1 from a player of their choice on the team.

Thief - (On the Team, N/A) Thieves have nothing to really offer the rest of the team. They have no negative effect for The Boss, other than taking their money, but no positive effect either. (Off the Team, Police Pursuit) Any thieves may reveal themselves to subtract 1 from the die roll each.

Extra tips:
- It’s important to remember that lying is a part of the game. While it is possible to win the game without lying if you are lucky, you often will have to fudge some facts about your role and what deal you are making.
- The Boss will always have a rough estimate of what type of loot is available. However, the actual numbers depend on how many people go on a heist. Taking only one other person may be important to cut others out of the loot, but it also greatly decreases the possibility of getting the Loot you want.
- Some roles provide no benefit whatsoever to The Boss. It is their responsibility to make themselves part of the team through deceit and making deals that are advantageous to The Boss.
- Anything relevant to the game can be a part of the deal. The Muscle might be the most important person on the team, or they might be just another body. The Muscle (or someone claiming to be The Muscle) could say, “If I stop The Undercover Cop, I get first pick. If I don’t, I get last”, for instance. Also, if a Thief is off the team, they might threaten to call the cops (use their Off the Team ability) unless The Boss gives them money.
- The Boss typically would want the first choice of Loot, but sometimes a deal has to be made to give that up to another person.

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