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How to use the two new buttons

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Wed, 01/16/2013 - 21:42
questccg
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2nd Edition Quest

Hi all,

I know Mark designed an interesting "Push your luck" kind of dynamic in the previous post entitled "Need *game* ideas" (http://www.bgdf.com/node/7666). However cool, the problem is that it is far from the First Edition of Quest Adventure Cards. We want to design a 2nd Edition that is similar in spirit to the original game, however we want to add more strategy to the game itself.

I have posted up a sample 2nd Edition card (http://www.bgdf.com/node/7693). I'm not letting the cat out of the bag (so to speak)... But I need to present what is different from the original edition.

We have 2 NEW buttons which can vary in color (Red, Purple, Blue, Green, Yellow and Orange - decided to go back to the original color scheme because Black and White were causing problems).

How those 2 NEW buttons are to be used is still up for debate. Obviously those buttons could lead to deeper strategy in the game (we hope...) They have currently values - but it may be that values are unnecessary... The types of values shown are both positive and negative. In your ideas you may want to use symbols... That also is possible.

If you need more information how the 2nd Edition plays, let me know and I will post that info.

For the moment, I'd just like to see what kind of ideas people can come up with...

Many thanks... and I'll post more information (as required from your responses)

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Sat, 01/19/2013 - 16:12
#1
questccg
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Game play

questccg wrote:
If you need more information how the 2nd Edition plays, let me know and I will post that info.

Game Start:
-Deal 3 cards to each player.

First Player's Turn:
-Draw 2 cards from the Draw Pile

-Play ONE Event card (Optional)
-Play up to 3 cards by placing them in play (From hand or Treasury)

End Player's Turn:
-If he has more than 8 cards in his hand, discard down to 8.

Next Player's Turn... Repeat from "First Player's Turn".

Scoring:
-Your goal is to complete Quests following these 2 rules:
A: Hero (card) + Item > Monster (in terms of points)
B: Monster + Lair > Treasure + Character (again in terms of points)

Points (strength of a card) are at the TOP, LEFT of each card.

You can work on a maximum of 3 Quests (concurrently).

Event cards:
-Event cards allow you to earn "Tribute cards" which go into your treasury.

The content of a player's treasury is to remain hidden from his opponents. Cards in a treasury MAY be put into play (Score points). If so, the card CANNOT return to the treasury at a later time.

Example Event cards:
-Treasure Chest: Pick 2 tribute cards from the draw pile (go into your treasury)
-Assassin: Force a player to skip his next turn.
-Merchant: Trade 1 score card for another. As bonus, both players earn 1 tribute card.
-Our beloved Queen: Each player must pay 1 tribute card.
-Tax collector: An opponent must taxes on his Treasury. For each required tribute card in his treasury, he must pay 2 tribute points. For optional tribute cards, he must pay 1 tribute point.

Reorganizing your score cards:
It is possible to reorganize the score cards in play. There is no limit how many cards may be rearranged. The only thing is that they must match 1 of the 2 scoring rules above.

Victory condition:
Currently the game is won when a player has completed 3 Quests.
*Note: This may be revised according to how the 2 buttons are used in the game...

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Sat, 01/19/2013 - 23:42
#2
questccg
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More on "Scoring"

Okay,

So current scoring is the following:

Scoring:
-Your goal is to complete Quests following these 2 rules:
A: Hero (card) + Item > Monster (in terms of points)
B: Monster + Lair > Treasure + Character (again in terms of points)

However I had set up a series of rules. They are:

A: Hero > Monster
B: Monster > Treasure

That is a completed Quest. If A cannot be satisfied, the optional condition MUST be satisfied:

C: Hero + Item > Monster

Same goes for B if it cannot be satisfied, the optional condition MUST be satisfied:

D: Monster + Lair > Treasure

Okay so those are some of the flexibilities in the rules, ways players can complete Quests without playing all 6 cards. Notice I have omitted talking about the *Character* card. The Character cards need to be reviewed...

The rule E (Monster + Lair > Treasure + Character) made sense however if the Quest can be completed using A and B or C and D, why would we need the Character card, right?!

I still do not have a rule defined for it, however I am *thinking* that is should have something to do with the TWO NEW buttons. How, I am for the moment unsure... I'm looking for ideas from the community, however so far I have received no responses (Yet).

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Sun, 01/20/2013 - 00:01
#3
Stormyknight1976
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Positive and negative buttons?

What were the other button colors used for again so every one can be refreshed on what they were used for. The new buttons will be used in a positive and negative way you say. What about health points or value points on how many monsters are in the room to conquer to meet to pass through?

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Sun, 01/20/2013 - 00:49
#4
questccg
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More of a Gin-Rummy game

Stormyknight1976 wrote:
What were the other button colors used for again so every one can be refreshed on what they were used for.

There are no *other* buttons. If you check out the picture at http://www.bgdf.com/node/7693 you will see that there are 2 Buttons (on the left-hand side). The buttons are *unused* but can come in different colors (Red, Purple, Blue, Green, Yellow and Orange). Compare to the 1st Edition (http://www.bgdf.com/node/4975) there are no buttons...

Stormyknight1976 wrote:
The new buttons will be used in a positive and negative way you say.

In the picture sample, there are both positive and negative values... But maybe the mechanic need symbols or just buttons with different colors... That depends on how you decide to use the 2 buttons...

Stormyknight1976 wrote:
What about health points or value points on how many monsters are in the room to conquer to meet to pass through?

There are no *health points*, players just try to complete Quests using the rules... Each completed Quest has at MINIMUM 1 Hero, 1 Monster and 1 Treasure...

The game is similar to a more traditional card game such as Gin-Rummy, players put cards in play (in front of them) where they need to satisfy game rules (See my previous 2 posts in this thread). There are 6 suits: Hero, Item(s), Monster, Lair, Treasure and Character.

I would want the 2 NEW buttons to add some more strategy to the game...

HOW is still undefined, I'd like to know what other designers have as ideas for them...

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Wed, 01/23/2013 - 17:43
#5
questccg
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One example of how to use the 2 buttons

One way of using those 2 NEW buttons would be a 2nd level of scoring:

Each card in play gives a victory point value (Top button). So in our example, the player would earn +2 victory points.

The bottom button is a counter: if the card (Healing potion) is grouped with a GREEN Hero (Say a Wizard), then the player would earn -1 victory points.

[Okay so I let the cat out of the bag...]

You would play the game such that the first player to reach 100 points is the winner of the game (like in a game of Hearts).

BUT I'm not 100% certain about this use of the buttons. For one thing, it means somebody needs a sheet of paper and needs to keep score. The score can vary during a game (and can go up and down). But at least other player's could also gain points towards the 100 victory point goal...

Okay so knowing this is kinda what I had planned for the buttons... I leave it to the other designers in this great community to think of other ways those 2 NEW buttons can be used.

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Wed, 01/23/2013 - 18:04
#6
questccg
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Not too many responses

questccg wrote:
You would play the game such that the first player to reach 100 points is the winner of the game (like in a game of Hearts).

BUT I'm not 100% certain about this use of the buttons. For one thing, it means somebody needs a sheet of paper and needs to keep score. The score can vary during a game (and can go up and down). But at least other player's could also gain points towards the 100 victory point goal...

I have done some play testing using *Victory points*. For one thing, it gives meaning to *Character* cards (obviously you can score more points with the card in play). The other thing is that it makes trading (Merchant Event) cards more selective (I like this).

BUT the downside is that it keeps players from the faster pace of game because somebody needs to keep score. Note that scoring can be done after a game is concluded by adding up points in completed quests. The player who has 3 completed quests will always be the victor and have the highest *Victory point* score.

I still wish other designers would chime in with their own ideas...

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Wed, 01/23/2013 - 18:16
#7
Casamyr
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How long does it take to

How long does it take to complete a quest or all three quests?

If you are likening it to a card game, then the game could be played over a number of quests.

And scoring only occurs once 1-3 quests are completed, and then ending an adventure. Finished quests score full points, whereas unfinished quests might score based on the point value in the buttons. Perhaps there could be some way to screw with the point value as you mentioned in an earlier post.

Maybe even change Victory Points into a more thematic term like Heroic Points and still have that race to become the greatest hero in the land.

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Wed, 01/23/2013 - 19:02
#8
questccg
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Would like a 2nd opinion

Casamyr wrote:
How long does it take to complete a quest or all three quests?

One quest takes approximately 3 to 5 minutes to complete. Sometimes faster. All 3 quests can take about 10 to 15 minutes... So I would say the usual game play time is 15 minutes (excluding Victory Points and the 100 point rule).

Casamyr wrote:
If you are likening it to a card game, then the game could be played over a number of quests.

Well it is a *card* game. But not like MtG, more like a game of Gin-Rummy: you try to match suits according to certain rules.

Casamyr wrote:
And scoring only occurs once 1-3 quests are completed, and then ending an adventure. Finished quests score full points, whereas unfinished quests might score based on the point value in the buttons. Perhaps there could be some way to screw with the point value as you mentioned in an earlier post.

I think the simplest way is to focus on completing quests as quickly as possible... And as the game progresses, tweak certain cards by replacing ones with lower Victory Points. Early on you play cards not knowing what you will need, later on the game usually slows while players try to get the missing card(s) to complete say their final quest.

My thoughts were to only calculate Victory Points for completed quests. This way the victor (3 quests) has a point advantage over his opponent. But in my play test, Player 1 (Victor) scored 58 points and Player 2 scored 38 points. So one quest meant a 20 point difference. Again this could be lower... it depends on the cards that are drawn... and how the game plays out.

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Wed, 01/23/2013 - 19:16
#9
questccg
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In my mind (I think) there are other possibilities

Casamyr wrote:
If you are likening it to a card game, then the game could be played over a number of quests.

Fundamentally you are collecting sets divided into 3 pairs:
-A Hero and an Item (Pair #1)
-A Monster and his Lair (Pair #2)
-A Treasure and a Character (Pair #3)

But a quest can be *Completed* if it satisfies this basic rule:
-A Hero > A Monster > A Treasure (in terms of Points - NOT Victory Points)

And if that rule cannot be satisfied, we break it down to two alternative rules:
-A Hero + An Item (varies) > A Monster
-A Monster + A Lair > A Treasure (+ A Character <= was optional, scores more Victory Points)

So I thought because you are collecting sets in PAIRS, you could do something interesting with the 2 NEW buttons.

Right now I have this *Victory Point* thing (because it was what came to mind) but I still feel there could be some other interesting alternatives (some form of other matching - using the 6 colors, maybe with symbols).

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Wed, 01/23/2013 - 19:41
#10
Casamyr
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You could use the buttons a

You could use the buttons a bit like in Citadels where you score bonus points if you have one of each colour in your Quest set.

Personally, I think runes symbols would fit the flavour of Quests than a color. This way rune combinations could influence the value of finished quest, similar to say poker.

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Wed, 01/23/2013 - 20:36
#11
questccg
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Interesting ideas...

Casamyr wrote:
You could use the buttons a bit like in Citadels where you score bonus points if you have one of each colour in your Quest set.

I am uncertain about this. If there are 6 cards per set, each quest will have one of each (by default). Or is this just to enforce that ALL 6 cards be in play (when I use enforce - I mean encourage)??? Each color could have a *Victory Point* value added with it to encourage playing of more cards in the quest. So if you use all 6 colors, you earn the most amount of Victory Points for that quest.

Casamyr wrote:
Personally, I think runes symbols would fit the flavour of Quests than a color. This way rune combinations could influence the value of finished quest, similar to say poker.

Runes I understand (Some form of symbols), *how a combination could influence the value of a finished quest*, this I would need some explanation of... Do you mind explaining that a little further?! I was thinking that symbols could be used... however to be honest, I'm not really sure how...

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Thu, 01/24/2013 - 03:04
#12
Casamyr
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Yeah, sorry mate. I had to

Yeah, sorry mate. I had to rush off to a meeting so had to cut short my train of thought.

First point. You wouldn't necessarily need 6 colors - it would depend upon the amount of colors you choose. Perhaps certain quests lend themselves towards certain colors. so you could have multiple copies of healing potions that have all the colors in different combinations. Perhaps colours have a rarity value. Lets take a game like borderlands (video game I know but it is just comparison) - loot goes in value from white - blue - purple-yellow - orange (I think). white is common, orange rare. In your game, assign a value to these. Finishing a quest with all white items might be worth +5 VP, whereas finishing a quest with all orange cards could be an extra +12 Vp.

2nd Point: You know, I had a damn good idea for the use of runes, but my meeting left me blank. Hopefully a good nights sleep might jog my memory. It had 2 uses - one for scoring at the end, the other for ingame things, but I can't remember what.

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Thu, 01/24/2013 - 14:26
#13
questccg
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Maybe about pairs or suits

Casamyr wrote:
Yeah, sorry mate. I had to rush off to a meeting so had to cut short my train of thought.

No problem.

Casamyr wrote:
Finishing a quest with all white items might be worth +5 VP, whereas finishing a quest with all orange cards could be an extra +12 Vp.

I understand, adding rarity to the cards...

Casamyr wrote:
2nd Point: You know, I had a damn good idea for the use of runes, but my meeting left me blank. Hopefully a good nights sleep might jog my memory. It had 2 uses - one for scoring at the end, the other for ingame things, but I can't remember what.

You mentioned something about "This way rune combinations could influence the value of finished quest, similar to say poker." Not sure what you meant about this... Maybe something to do with Pairs and/or Suits...

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Thu, 01/24/2013 - 16:05
#14
Casamyr
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Yeah, something like that. I

Yeah, something like that. I had some thought that runes (and/or colors) could have 2 uses - one as a scoring mechanic at the end of the game - pairs, 3 of kinds generated additional values, and secondly as an ingame effect.

Perhaps certain combinations of runes, influenced the cards in some way -maybe as a way to add more player interaction into the mix. How you would do this I don't rightly know. Perhaps some combinations of runes when completed, allow you to draw an extra card, or take an extra action, which could be invaluable during the end game phase as you are racing to finish that final quest?

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Sun, 01/27/2013 - 00:44
#15
questccg
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Colors and rarity

Well if we just discuss colors, the rarity spectrum goes from Red to Purple (Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Purple). And obviously Red, Blue are RARE cards, Orange and Green are UNCOMMON and Yellow cards are COMMON. How I get this is by analyzing the Victory points scored by each card. So things that only score 1 Victory point (Red) are less frequent than things score 3 Victory points (Yellow). Blue is the same but would be the opposite of Red, not too many cards score 5 Victory points.

NOTE: Purple cards could be reserved for special cards such as Event cards that also score points (like Long Live The King which scores a high Hero point value and would therefore score a LOW Victory point).

That all can be managed by one button (either the top or the bottom).

It's the 2nd button which is a mystery to me. I was thinking suits... somehow... but still very unsure.

If anyone has any ideas, I would welcome the feedback.

Thank you.

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Sun, 01/27/2013 - 14:01
#16
Casamyr
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Do you really need a second

Do you really need a second button?

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Sun, 01/27/2013 - 18:26
#17
questccg
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Just looking for ideas...

Casamyr wrote:
Do you really need a second button?

Well I was just hoping someone (another designer) might have ideas regarding how to use the two buttons. As of "today", the best use of them seems to be a positive value which is Victory points and another value (which could be negative or positive) that depends on the card it is paired up with.

I will ponder on it further...

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