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New space dual card game

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questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011

Hi all,

It's has been a while since my last post (I have been away). I wanted to post a new game concept that I have been working on over the last 3 months. On paper everything seem great, however after some playtesting, I am concerned with the audience of the game (looking to target the casual card game player, however want a product with a big "depth").

So much like in San Juan, my game has Roles. Here is the list of the roles in the card game:
-Monach: Draw 3 cards
-General: Recruit troops or starships
-Spy: Spy on cards in hand or sabotage another players cards in play
-Industrialist: Produce resources (Duroplast, Carbonex and Alloid)
-Engineer: Build installation upgrades (Basic to Advanced)
-Trader: Sell (player or bank) resources
-Civilian: Draw 1 card

Obviously with this many roles you can playt at most 6 players together. Those players can play alone or co-opetate
(Play together although there can be only one winner).

The type of cards are:
-Basic/Advanced/Elite installation (buildings or space depots)
-Starships/Upgrades
-Instants

Each player starts with a random Homeworld card, which gives the resistance (life points) for a military victory. Advanced and Elite installation require Units to put them into play, however they produce Culture. Another form of victory is a Cultural one.

Basic Installations are:
-Military Academy: train Soldiers/Officiers/Engineers
-Resource Factory: produce resources Duroplast/Carbonex/Alloid
-Space Shipyard: 5 Classes of Starships (A through E)
-Trade Outpost: ratios for selling or trading resources with other players (or the bank)
-Engineering Plant: produces Power Units (so you can build Advance or Elite installations)

questccg
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So what's the problem?!?

Well my problem lies with the "tempo" of the game. It takes time to produce resources and then trade them to currency. Next you need to draw the Advance Installation cards (as opposed to Instant cards).

The Instant cards in the game are "invaluable". What I mean by this is that each card has a purpose and for strategic reasons you would want to keep them. Unfortunalty you can only have 8 cards in your hand.

I am unsure if this would be a game for a "casual" card game player.

There are advanced concepts and the game really mimics the "hardship" of having to produce and then sell resources to get currency (Quicksilver - qs for short). Besides qs you also need some of the resources themselves to produce Advanced or Elite Installations. So with only a 2 player playtest, it takes time to produce resources and them more time to sell them.

I do think that the way the game is "currently designed" would appeal to a REAL gamer. Somebody who can appreciate how the game simulates trading (sort of Auction mechanic). It also uses Dice combined with the concept of Initiative for the combat system. "Initiative" is the idea that a ships is more ready to attack if its crew is greater than the opposing starship. This means if you attack an opponent who has a better initiative, it is he who attack you FIRST and then you rataliate. Depending on ship crews, you can be attack 2 times before having the chance to retaliate.

So on paper the game has a lot of "depth" (many concepts - more complexity). However I am concerned that a casual game may be not so interested because of the time spend "earning resources" and waiting for the right cards to come into play...

MarkKreitler
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What are your design goals?

This could sound snarky, but I don't mean it that way: you haven't asked a question, so I'm unsure what response will be of use to you. From your statements, it sounds like you already know what's going on: the tempo and number of systems in your game has pushed it out beyond "casual" territory. Seems like your situation is clear: keep the design and make a gamers' game, or lighten it and make a casual one.

So, what do you want to do?

I do have a piece of "food for thought" as you mull that decision. In here:

questccg wrote:
So on paper the game has a lot of "depth" (many concepts - more complexity).

you equate depth with complexity / number of concepts, but these aren't the same (consider "Go" as the ultimate counter-example). Have you asked how much you could strip out and still have an interesting space dual game? You might find the game you're looking for if you go that direction.

Best of luck!

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
My apologies

MarkKreitler wrote:
This could sound snarky, but I don't mean it that way: you haven't asked a question, so I'm unsure what response will be of use to you.

To clarify the "question", is designing a game for a card gamer audience worthwhile?

As I mentionned, the pace is somewhat slower that your typical card game. You need to take turns in getting the proper roles (contention during the game). There is also the blend of cards which makes it that sometimes you need to wait for sufficient resources and may get blocked by other players during role selection.

As such I want to know if there is value in designing a game for gamers rather than the casual crowd. Could such a game get published (aside from self-publishing using POD).

MarkKreitler wrote:
Have you asked how much you could strip out and still have an interesting space dual game?.

And to reply to specifically the response, well it's more of a 100% or 0% scenario. Nothing can be stripped out unless you want the game to "hold together"...

MarkKreitler
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Thanks for taking the time to answer

questccgTo clarify the "question", is designing a game for a card gamer audience worthwhile?[/quote/</p> <p>"Card gamer audience" isn't well-defined. I know many people who play Hearts and Gin Rummy who wouldn't touch M:tG with a 10' pole, and vice versa. So the question seems less about that than, "is it worthwhile to design a card game for serious gamers?"</p> <p>In that case, the market suggests, "Yes." From Fluxx to the Settler's card game to Dominion and beyond, you can find card games from "light" to "heavy" across the "serious gamers'" spectrum.</p> <p>[quote=MarkKreitler wrote:
Have you asked how much you could strip out and still have an interesting space dual game?.

And to reply to specifically the response, well it's more of a 100% or 0% scenario. Nothing can be stripped out unless you want the game to "hold together"...[/quote]

In that case, you're not targeting the casual market, as you pointed out in your original post. But that shouldn't be a problem, since "real" gamer's like games based on cards, too.

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