over-used theme

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 14:48

#1

abdantas

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Joined: 11/13/2012

clarification

the only thing the theme would change is cosmetics, everything else is pretty much the same.

Like i said, castle town would be ok, but i feel like it's a little "meh"

if you need any more info on mechanics just ask.

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 14:53

#2

questccg

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Joined: 04/16/2011

Couple of ideas

abdantas wrote:

Anyone have any thoughts on what else Icould do that would work with this king of game that's not "youre a king" or "youre building this for the royal family" or whatever else.

You can try something like being in the Artic Circle and being an Inuit (survival in the harsh subzero temperature). That theme has not been used much. Same things about Indians... Cowboys and Indians. Not many games using that theme either. Or you can make it modern (or current) where the indians sell cheap cigarettes, cheap motor fuel and have a casino (or online gambling)... Because they don't pay taxes.

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 15:04

#3

abdantas

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Joined: 11/13/2012

indian casino - the game

i just had that image in my head, of the game being about a bunch of indians trying to compete for business. That's pretty funny.

"edit" i jsut thought of making it that the indians are trying to collect the resources to turn their reservation into a mega casino. Would this be terribly offensive?

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 15:20

#4

questccg

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I think it could be cool...

Sounds like the game has a *co-operative* feel to it... But you could also have each indian competing for their stake of the casino... You could also build the casino in portions: like start with those instant slot machines, and then move on to poker and blackjack table, etc... If you want some sort of *progression* to building the casino...
Like the casino starts on level 1 and only has slot machines, level 2 and it has blackjack tables, level 3 and it has poker table, level 4 it has roulette, level 5 it has craps, etc...

Maybe it could be about competing tribes. Check out this link for the amount of tribes (http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/tribes/cherokee/cherohist.htm). There are A LOT of them...

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 15:25

#5

abdantas

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Joined: 11/13/2012

Interesting

I was thinking that the Indians are 4 competing tribes. Every turn there's an event that happens that hinder or help the player, players then use the resources (bidding by having workers on there, every turn the stock on that place builds and once everyone has their turn each player can take from two tiles, whoever has the most workers in that tile get dibs) the different resources can be sold for cash that they use to buy machines to raise income, or services of thugs and people to aid the player, as the players expand their casino they use their workers to build the new facilities. So players use money plus resources to expand but as they expand they have less access to resources. Also, to build things they need Pattons and maybe there could be a barter mechanic for players to use other players blueprints

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 15:41

#6

questccg

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Joined: 04/16/2011

Resources

If you could make the resources of the game cheap cigarettes, cheap motor fuel and indian artwork...

You can make funny events, like "The government puts a ban on cheap indian cigarettes", this drives the demand for MORE (reverse psychology) indian cigarettes (higher price - could have some dynamic economics).

What were your ideas of game resources???

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 16:02

#7

abdantas

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Joined: 11/13/2012

Resources

Well, as a kingdom builder I was looking at wood, food, stone and gold, using gold to buy upgrades and blueprints while the other resources were used to build and expand. I think the mechanics are solid in that as the game progresses players begin to monopolize things by building on them making it harder to build. There would be 20 event cards and 11 would be picked at random and used as the turn counter. The idea was that as players expand resources become scarcer. Idk how I could do that with the Indian casino theme, unless I change it a bit and make it like, oil, natural has, ranching, and farming and you use these resources to get money. In my original idea the only things that have players points were buildings, and each building had an ability that the player could pay to do on top of their regular actions

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 16:20

#8

questccg

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Joined: 04/16/2011

Earn cold hard *Cash*

abdantas wrote:

Well, as a kingdom builder I was looking at wood, food, stone and gold, using gold to buy upgrades and blueprints while the other resources were used to build and expand. Idk how I could do that with the Indian casino theme, unless I change it a bit and make it like, oil, natural has, ranching, and farming and you use these resources to get money.

Instead of *Money*, I would call it *Cash*! ;) Another solution, is having some sort of economics it which players need to trade their resources for *Cash* (Sounds sooo good! :)

But remember you need to *produce* cigarettes, motor fuel and indian artwork (in my version... I just think that it makes the game funnier). And you need to sell that according to a dynamic market into *Cash*. You could hunt for food, chop wood and collect stone (for building).

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 16:32

#9

abdantas

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Joined: 11/13/2012

As sold as I am on this idea

As sold as I am on this idea I have a feeling I'd get sued for everything I got if it got published. What do you think?

Edit- I guess the Native American thing could be implied. If you make the other parts more subtle. If I really want to factor in the resources I could make it that these people are the first settlers in Vegas, so they gotta build everything themselves

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 16:58

#10

abdantas

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Joined: 11/13/2012

But continuing on that idea,

But continuing on that idea, you could have workers that you use to gather wood, concrete and things to build your casino, then as your casino grows and you build your machines some could be manned to earn cash. Where as if you build the tobacco station you can earn two cash for every worker there. In this way the economic balance could shift gradually from resources to cash

I got another theme idea, what if you make it about running an illegal casino doing the prohibition era, and you could have a couple of the events be the cops showing up, and depending on your casinos value you have to bribe them more. One of the upgrades could be a blackmail card, and it would be like 4 rival groups are building on the same town, but eventually they'll have to start thrashing each other. I also thought of adding a San Juan mechanic where like, a fast food place needs 3 people to earn the cash, but if I only have 1 worker someone else can place people there and take it over.

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 17:04

#11

JustActCasual

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Joined: 11/20/2012

Ahem

The game you are building right now is offensive.

Apart from the broader concerns, this really limits the audience and sales.

That being said, there is an interesting game here that examines how government actions intended to help people (excise/"sin" taxes, bans, tax exemption) can in concert create effects counter to your intentions. Abstracting this system, getting the players to choose negative societal behaviours, and then bringing it home with some kind of included debrief could be a really affective experience. Yes, I am thinking about "Train".

Making a game that engages players in an important social issue seems like a worthwhile endeavour:
Making a game that mocks struggling minorities is not.

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 17:53

#12

abdantas

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Joined: 11/13/2012

offensive

JustActCasual wrote:

The game you are building right now is offensive.

Apart from the broader concerns, this really limits the audience and sales.

That being said, there is an interesting game here that examines how government actions intended to help people (excise/"sin" taxes, bans, tax exemption) can in concert create effects counter to your intentions. Abstracting this system, getting the players to choose negative societal behaviours, and then bringing it home with some kind of included debrief could be a really affective experience. Yes, I am thinking about "Train".

Making a game that engages players in an important social issue seems like a worthwhile endeavour:
Making a game that mocks struggling minorities is not.

Hey JAC,

I noticed that this was the way it was going to be seen even though it wasn't. I just wanted a different theme to fit the idea that with the expansion of civilization the abundance of resources that we thought we had in the beginning starts dwindling first if you don't manage your resources from the beginning.

Like I said, the original plan was to have a kingdom builder, but I did not want to follow the traditional though.

I'm leaning towards a prohibition era, instead of having the obviously offensive native american theme, having the players be mobsters running a speak easy, prohibition era bar/casino. But this bring back the idea of what could be used as resources. I guess I could have something like, alchohol, guns, and drugs being the resources that you trade for income to build your casino. There could be that at the end of every 3 turns the cops show up expecting their bribe money. or something.

I am planning on avoiding the Indian Casino idea, even though it wasn't malicious i think the margin of getting it right is way too slim

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 20:26

#13

Tob

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Joined: 09/13/2012

Yup.

abdantas wrote:

As sold as I am on this idea I have a feeling I'd get sued for everything I got if it got published. What do you think?

It will never get published because it's so racist and offensive.

I am amazed that the administration of this website has let this thread get this far.

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 21:03

#14

Sperber

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Joined: 03/22/2011

Tob wrote:abdantas wrote:As

Tob wrote:

abdantas wrote:

As sold as I am on this idea I have a feeling I'd get sued for everything I got if it got published. What do you think?

It will never get published because it's so racist and offensive.

I am amazed that the administration of this website has let this thread get this far.

I don't know. Cards Against Humanity can be really offensive. It is self-published but still got a BoardtoDeath video review with a really good critique

Battlestar Galactica. The Cylon player has pretty much one goal: commit genocide of the whole human race.

Letters from Whitechapel: Jack the Ripper murders prostitutes and tries to get away with it.

There are more games that can be seen as offensive and even racist. Of course you must draw a line somewhere and since abdantas himself realized that he might have gone to far with his idea I see no harm done and even more I see no reason why any administrator should step in.

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 21:51

#15

abdantas

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Joined: 11/13/2012

oh yeah, i realized it was

oh yeah, i realized it was getting out of hand FAST.

that's all behind us now.

I tried playing my superhero game tonight and it felt a little slow.
Do you guys feel that dice slows a game down when it's not the main mechanic?

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 22:03

#16

questccg

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Joined: 04/16/2011

I disagree completely

JustActCasual wrote:

The game you are building right now is offensive.

I'm think in terms of theme, the original idea of building a casino on an indian reservation (as a theme) is unique. And what is more is that it is rooted in reality: some reservations have built casinos on their grounds as a way to attract people and generate revenue.

Actually in my part of the woods, instead of building a casino they have installed servers and are running online gambling. The indians are involved with IT and are hosting servers for people all around the United States. In my opinion, more power to them! And they also sell cheap cigarettes for people off the reservation... My roommate buys them from his boss who goes down to the reservation every now and then to buy them.

When I was younger, I used to remember my dad who used to travel on the road a lot (because he was a salesman) and sometimes we would drive down to the reservation to buy gas. But I think nowadays they found a way to cut into that business (and so there is no more indian gas... saddly).

The only thing I differ on is that I was leaning to co-operative game play where players compete to own percentages (or places) in the Casino as it gets built... I though that players working together competing while the *evil* government is in the process of trying to shut it down so that they can build their own! And that is another fact of life in my neck of the woods: the government built the casino first...

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 22:15

#17

abdantas

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Joined: 11/13/2012

Quest, i like the Indian

Quest, i like the Indian Casino, but i was looking at a more competitive vibe. Like I said, I'll probably lean more towards a Prohibition Era Speakeasy.

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 22:48

#18

Frank

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Joined: 09/01/2012

Perhaps Sci-Fi?

Organization starts bidding off planets for harvest in a doomed/w.e. galaxy. As you exploit the resources of certain planets, they become unusable.

Thu, 01/24/2013 - 23:40

#19

Hamvvar

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Joined: 05/08/2012

Well

I think the "kingdom building"/"empire expansion" theme is way overused.

If you re-conceptualize that aspect, you might find more interesting framing even in the medieval/high fantasy paradigm.

the game space could be more abstract, like you're a knight or warrior increasing your treasure/prestige. Resources could include equipment/skills/food and drink/stamina (or something)

Or each player could be a mage trying to increase their power and knowledge by attaining new spells and mystical familiars.

Fri, 01/25/2013 - 00:21

#20

MarkKreitler

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Joined: 11/12/2008

Keep casinos, drop the ethnic angle

Hey Ab,

You mentioned a purely Vegas angle earlier, and that might work. But instead of the "first settlers" of Vegas, spin it as breaking into "early Vegas."

Players represent Big Players in the Hotel business trying to expand into Vegas. They ride the line between legitimate and illegitimate business practices, expanding territory into other players' (mobsters?) areas, trying to stay "legit" (or at least maintain appearances) while balancing the use of money, and potentially violence, to increase their influence.

Balanced properly, it could provide a certain "edginess" as players try to do "just enough" to each other to win without being so flagrant as to force the Law to crack down.

Dunno...think it could work, and it's not a theme that's been beaten to death...yet.

EDIT: This also brings to mind the "Tong Wars" in San Francisco. That would be more overt in terms of casting the players as mobsters, but still might play out all right. Unfortunately, it re-introduces a certain ethnic element...

Fri, 01/25/2013 - 07:14

#21

abdantas

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Joined: 11/13/2012

Mobsters

Hey mark, that's what I was thinking. I was thinking that players could be mobsters getting money together to start their very own illegal bar/casino during the prohibition. So players would gather resources like drugs, alcohol, and guns which they would turn into cash to fund their criminal empire. As their business expands some resources could become less available. Like if you have the rare guns tile, but you expand. If you don't build an illegal weapons manufacture that would give you a consistent stream of 1 weapon per/worker instead of it being built up then bidded on to be sold. But to build your weapon factory would take you buying the blueprint then paying the amount to build, at the same time someone with an illegal brewery(could give a player a bonus to casino income and access to molotovs) could pay to have your building burned down. I think gangsters competing over a city could be a very interesting

The end of every 3 turn cycle would be one of the random officers, that depending on what you have (the person with the most cash) would want a bribe. So let's say the casino you built has room for 3 workers. With 1 worker in it it'll make 5g a turn with 2 8g and 3 12g. I could have one character there and you could end up putting 2 workers there because I didn't. I made 12g but each worker receives 3. So at theend of the day, even though the building gibes me a cash value, another playr might really be taking me for a sucker.

I think ideally the ame would start as a resource gathering game and quickly become a very strategy heavy worker placement/resource management

Fri, 01/25/2013 - 17:38

#22

Hamvvar

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Joined: 05/08/2012

I like the sound of mobsters

I like the sound of mobsters bidding to control early vegas, very cool and original!

Mon, 01/28/2013 - 21:06

#23

Lofwyr

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Joined: 02/16/2010

I do LOVE a good theme!

Let’s try to keep some basics in mind when discussing theme! HOW will the theme be conveyed? Are we going to use artwork, shorts, quips and quotes? Will we have artwork that is consistent with short quotes or stories like in MTG? Once we decide HOW to communicate the game world to the player we can then decide on a theme.

At this point you should take stock of your mechanics. This is incredibly important as the very mechanics you use should offer at least some inkling as to theme. This is certainly not always the case but I feel like your particular idea is an extremely easy instance of this.

After floundering a bit in the first several posts I think you have finally struck gold with the gangster idea. Well, perhaps not gold, maybe silver. So you have a basic idea here, small groups of elites contending for control.

FIRST, we are going to leave some chunks of this story in permanent obfuscation. These are questions that serve you two purposes. The first purpose is to provide easy access to undefined elements that could be used to create further products or expansions. The second service these provide you with is controlling the impact of fluff. The fewer things you define, the less material your gamer will want to pick apart. Sounds pretty standard I know, but it’s important in the long haul.
____________________________________________________________________________________
So rather than define a world let’s start with a place. I feel like a great setting for this game would be a destroyed city (future or past) that is experiencing its phoenix like rise from the ashes. The city is no longer a simple metropolitan complex such as modern New York. This city, because of its rebirth, and the timing of that rise, is a hub for a haggard and failing world.

During the rebuilding effort a massive populace of slaves was brought in to assist in reconstruction. Largely due to the efforts of these people(?) the city has now grown into opulence with a golden yet corrupt beurocratic core (skyscrapers) and a slum-like outer edge(district 9). After an uprising of the labor force that brought the early city to its knees the slaves were allowed to work for there freedom. Continuing there existence as a much needed work force but quelling unrest the indentured work force began to form into "work gangs". As the city grew and changed so too did its labor force, from slaves to free-men.

During the “renaissance” (rebuilding) work gangs competed over jobs and began trafficking labor as “guilds”. As the city matured so too did the work gangs, they began to provide their own security, followed their own laws, and staked claims of territory across the sprawling cityscape.
____________________________________________________________________________________________
Please note we never defined time, location, or even what caused the world to be this way. What we need to focus on is the aspects of the world that the players will be interacting with. Do not get hung up on other (useless) details.

You have TONS of options here. Were the slaves a beaten foe, a robotic labor force that gained sentience, slaves (ala Rome), perhaps even superpsychorockcyberninjas? You could also take on some deeper questions like “guild” laws that are followed by all as a matter of honor, or perhaps, out of fear from some greater power. Which brings me to my next point…who is really running the city? Is an emperor, government, or some other force in control of this situation and what impact does that have on the world?

Lots of directions to head in!

E

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