Publishers/Self Published - Something in Between?

So let me explain some KEY differences in the two (2) options you have stated because I personally have done BOTH (and maybe a 3rd option too).

1. Self-Publishing.

This is the HARDER of the two roads. Firstly either A> You find your own Artist/Illustrator and Graphic Designer and pay them for their time or B> You do a Kickstarter and have people FUND the game and it's making...

I guess IF you have enough money to FUND everything on your own... That's great. Pumping in about $5,000 for illustrations and art is step #1. Then you need to worry about finding a manufacturer in China which will have a MOQ of 500 to 1,000 units. That's probably $10,000+ in production fees (but varies from game to game). Then it's FOB so you need to arrange for Freight to your warehouse which is your next concern. Knowing where to warehouse your game such that you can process orders from some ONLINE "webstore".

If you go the Kickstarter route... everything is similar except for the last step... Which is instead of just a warehouse, you need a fulfillment company which will A> Package and ship your games B> Warehouse your stock for a fee.

2. Going with a Publisher.

This is never all-or-nothing. But what it says is that a Publisher will take on the responsibility to MAKE the game a reality. Here's where it gets a little "creative"... A smaller publisher will gladly take "artistic" references or may offer substitutes based on the people they have worked with in the past. Some of them will RUN a KS on your behalf (taking YOUR game and KS-ing to make it a reality). These are smaller publisher... Larger ones may want to handle all the MAKING themselves. They may or may not consult with you. Generally speaking smaller publishers would be wise in using you as the designer to work on aspects of the game too...

Obviously I've done both... And going WITH a Publisher has been MORE successful than trying to do things on my own.

Cheers!

I'd think it would be possible to make a complete game, with art, and then shop it to publishers. That's sort of in between the two options, if you consider "publishers" to include having them do all the graphics. If the art and design are good, then I'm sure a publisher would be happy to have you have absorbed those risks and costs yourself :)

This is contrary to how business is done. The Publisher WANTS and NEEDS the IP license for the game. You as the designer hold 100% power over it until you decide to LICENSE the game to a Publisher. So two (2) things can happen: A> You forget about all the money you have already invested in the game or B> You ask to make an offsetting payment for your initial investment. So in A> it's a done deal, the Publisher assumes all additional costs to make and sell the game. In B> BEFORE the IP is licensed, as the designer you have the right to collect on prior investment if the Publisher is willing to agree to it. Put it simply, it's NEGOTIABLE (amount and when it is paid — after a KS, before Manufacturing, before retail, etc.)

The idea is that the Publisher retains 100% over the IP and has a valid license to make and sell your game.

Finished is a relative term. Like 90% completed. And yes SMALLER Publishers will be interested in more completed works rather than just a hand-made prototype. Of course they deal with their own Developer(s) and would see if there are things that need "fixing" and/or refining.

So yes more advanced games in terms of the IP itself CAN be more attractive to the RIGHT Publisher...

Funny... I actually did the SAME thing. And I think I sold only 30 games.

Yes that's why I don't want to PAY $100 just to be able to sell. I know that I probably won't sell enough games to pay for the event!

Yes that's true too... Make sure your game is enjoyable and "FUN" for some kind of demographic. The larger the better!

I think it's very positive that you have reached out to fellow designers on BGDF. Many of us are experienced and have been through the process more than one time too.

I would rather say: "Make sure the manufacturer you work with does not cut any corners..." Be specific in your requirements (cardstock gsm, finish, die cutting, packaging, etc.) There is a lot to making a game and you will see that the more you learn the less you know ... because there are always additional steps required to making your game a reality.

Reviewers are good. But don't expect Miracles. They can get the word out about your game. Consider having like 4 to 5 reviewers per game. Some you need to pay and they are "influencers" others are free. Try to balance between those.

I personally would disagree about distribution. The margins are way too low. I would go with a Kickstarter followed by an Online Strategy like "Amazon" + Your own website. Depending on the price point, Amazon can offer FREE shipping. Consider things like a $40-50 game, you can get FREE shipping in the USA (and maybe Canada too... not sure). Don't try to compete with other channels, maybe think about selling DIRECT to FLGSs (Friendly Local Game Stores) in your area. Do some online research to find OTHER retailers and contact/sell them DIRECT too...

I want to go back to the 1st point: "Self publishing is lots of work"

This is very true. There is a lot to learn and while you are doing it, you don't always have the luxury of time either. It's very much a learning process and there is plenty to understand and figure out how it all "comes together".

Cheers!

Does anyone know the terms usually used to sell to a FLGS? I mean, yes, a 30-40% discount, but who pays for shipping costs, for example?

Here there is an issue of "influencers". Some of the BEST and Well-Known reviewers charge from a paid preview. If you want a bunch of people who are not KNOWN in the industry ... well I'm sure your neighbor can do a review for you. BUT if you want people with CREDIBILITY, FOLLOWERS and generally the people that gamers look to for their OPINION on games, well then sometimes it is worth while to spend $100 or $200 USD on a paid preview...

I'm not saying getting FREE reviews is bad. No I am saying do a MIX of BOTH... This way you get people other gamers KNOW and then 3rd party reviews of people who are less known and give their honest feedback.

It's not supposed to be "awesome". Why do you think we chose not to go into Distribution. Because the margin is 60% MSRP ... even worst than the retail discount of 50%...!

You have to understand, FLGSs are taking ALL the risk:

• They have rent and heating to pay

• They have employees that are required for the business

• They need to pay for all kinds of stock up-front

Yeah basically you broke even with your KS. And it's left you probably with a lot of stock 600+ units. You can TRY to retail it YOURSELF making the 50% margin (which will probably be "awesome") or you can try to build visibility and Brand Power by dealing with some stores.

Ideally you would want to do a blend of BOTH. Make extra margins AND sell to local stores. Try not to compete with them however... Otherwise they may not buy from you if your pricing is in competition with what they offer (the stores vs. you online).

There are some good arguments for selling online. Namely, if a customer is in a more remote location, they may not have a local store. In this situation the Internet and online purchasing is a GREAT alternative.

Selling games is not a "get rich" strategy. It's small, incremental earning and the goal is Brand Power. What you WANT is to have 350 backers today and maybe 200 additional consumers (as an example not precise math) and then when you KS your next "expansion" or game, you'll have a pool of 550 people to pitch to regarding buying it...

So it's small victories and understanding that EVEN "Jamey Stegmaier" did not make a Million dollars in one try. He's had like more than 5 games from:

Viticulture, Tuscany, Euphoria, Between Two Cites, Scythe, Charterstone, etc.

The idea and principle is to GROW your audience with each and every game you release... It's a slow road unless you are very gifted like Jamey where he can pump out a game every 12 months or so.

Personally my games take upwards of a Year or more to make... So it's a slower battle and I work extensively to make sure the game is +90% finished before contacting reviewers to tell me what they think. No doubt that in some instances if you have a "bad" game, something less than your other games... You may lose some backers. So it's not only an uphill road either.

I honestly don't see why you are surprised that "Retail" is "unappealing"(?!) You should know that the STORE is making MOST of the money and while you make 50%, you also have to factor in that you PAID to make the game, the cost of ads, reviewers, prototypes, artwork, illustration, etc. So you're not getting a pure 50% UNLESS you have already PAID for the bulk of the order from your KS...

In that case, well you're making 50%. Absorbing the shipping is not a big deal IMHO.

Just wanted to add that IF "Jamey Stegmaier" is no longer using Kickstarter because there is less pressure dealing with distributors (because they primarily don't care when the game is going to be ready) because they know they will sell when the game is ready for sale.

Poor Jamey had some toxic interaction from KS. And although that was a while ago, I'm sure he remembers it and... well would prefer not such an outcome to repeat.

But still there were uphill battles, namely getting enough financing to manufacture over 48,000+ units for the various distribution partners.

The bottom line is this: stick to KS because it allows you to cater to a crowd. Reserve yourself the right to having Pre-Orders before delivery. And try to grow your customer base each time you try to KS...

I'm not saying it's going to be easy. But it's something to shoot for!

My recommendation to you is to develop "characters" for each of your "adventures" both Good and Evil. At the moment you are using "standies" with Punch-Outs which is fine in itself (no worries there)...

HOWEVER... At some point in time, YOU may want to get into the "Miniatures" market. But only once you have developed sufficient "characters" through several adventures.

Why? Well aside from making the model files (if you go digital versus actual sculpting), you will need to do the molds too. You could put together a GINORMOUS campaign with 100 miniatures and make a real EXCEPTIONAL product.

Again why? Because you might want to simply go in that direction. And maybe having a multi-million dollar campaign with 20,000 supporters at over $100 USD per backer might be something to be proud of... An achievement/milestone!

I think the "standies" for young kids is FINE. But as they grow older, I would suggest the minis to get OLDER kids more interested in their OLDER game and sort of REVIVE it will a MASSIVE campaign with all of bells & whistles... etc.

Personally I would "wish" this for your game! I think bringing D&D and RPGs to younger children is a fantastic idea and you can grow it with all kinds of tiles and adventures. But there MAY come a time where you'll want to "re-vamp" the design and this is just one of the possible directions...

Cheers!

Note: Let me just share you with you my thoughts. It's YOUR game and therefore YOUR vision. I'm just giving you some ideas. What I could see is IF you divide things into "adventures", each adventure has a pre-defined set of "characters" and "monsters". You could start SMALL and release miniatures for "Adventure #1"... And then CONTINUE with "Adventure #2", "Adventure #3", etc. Developing slowly a COLLECTION of cool miniatures that are customized for YOUR game and the various stories.

You don't need to do a $100, 20,000 backer campaign. Could be a 2,000 backers and $75 USD for "Adventure #1" (as an example). That could be like a $150,000 USD campaign ... Something LARGER in scale but still TIED to your "core".

And you could repeat this for your various adventures.

The only piece of "advice" that I can really give you is: TRY to LIMIT the number of monsters in rooms and/or map. I'm not really certain how your game works ... but if you have 3 Rat Standies, you'll want to LIMIT it such that when you produce miniatures, you can also lower the amount of miniatures per "adventure". So 3 Rat Standies = 3 Rat Minis...

But I think you've already anticipated this... Right???

It's usually a bit more complicated than this. Something like the Publisher has 2 year to sell or manufacture the game. Upon termination there is usually a sunset clause which is that the Publisher reserves 18 months to sell remaining inventory.

NEVER a lifetime. Usually the rights revert back to the Designer. That is okay (the design only), but you will probably need to negotiate for art repayment if the Publisher has spent monies to make the artwork.

Okay once you have a WORKING prototype (Hand written), you should INVEST in "The Game Crafter" (TGC: http://www.thegamecrafter.com) and make a more professional version. It doesn't need artwork, but maybe you could invest in a LOGO and NAME for the game and print that on the backside of the cards, etc.

Just remember all your costs: prototypes, Facebook Ads, Paid Previews, Reviewer Copies, Artwork, Logo, Box Cover/Backside too, etc. There are a lot of moving parts and you SHOULD be thinking about MAKING some profit. Let me explain something very important that I have learned.

It's not because you NEED or WANT money that you want to make profit on a game. It's because you WANT and NEED enough money to pay for a SECOND PRINT RUN after a successful KS. Why? Otherwise what will happen is that you will sell "X" games and be left over with "Y". Once that inventory is SOLD... Will you have enough money to make a second print run??? And this is very important because if you game is POPULAR, you'll want to print more. But if you don't have enough PROFIT to PAY for a print run...

That's a whole other story. It's a bit sad: What some people do is make a MINI-KS (or KS LITE) to encourage backers to support an extra while trying to get enough funds to PRINT a SECOND RUN...

Even if they've earned $150,000 USD and PLUS. Usually most campaigns don't earn enough for a second print run. And well that is very tragic. A good game with no capital to build on it's previous success. Truly a shame.

So what this means is that you NEED and WANT PROFIT. And enough of it to be able to independently manufacture a second print run. I'm working on this as we speak. It's not greed, it's pure and simple number crunching and having a game that is independently driven by a community of players.

Imagine I'm thinking about a TCG (Trading Card Game)... We all know that TCGs are hard to bring to market. I'm working around the risks and trying to keep things very simple in terms of the "offer". Also looking to ADD "extras" that can boost the overall sales with things that HELP the players play the game EASIER. They are not essential, just optional for the gamers who a looking for a complete solution.

Just be sure to understand that if you go it alone. You want to be able to have enough profitability in a KS to re-pay for many of the expenses and also be able to say you have enough money for a reprint.

Remember those factors... because it can make a HUGE difference as you try to grow with other games!

If you watch the latest "The Game Crafter" (TGC) Video about KS... Bryan talks about the "5 times multiplier" (5x). IF a game costs you $10 USD to make, you should be SELLING it at $50 USD. Nevermind KS creators usually give money-oriented incentives... You NEED to be using that simple Factor... Otherwise you are just going to be losing money and as I explained before you'll have less and less finances to do business and continue designing cool and innovative games.

Sometimes it's the Manufacturer that tells you $12 USD. Well that means the game NEEDS to retail for $60 USD. $2 bucks is a BIG difference. If you can't get the Manufacturer to lower the price... UP it to $60 USD... That's what it HAS TO COST.

Many creators have not done this. They've "thought" about offering a KS discount to the "early" backers (I'm not talking about early bird rewards), I'm talking about LOW priced games to entice more backers... Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Bryan say's FUCK THAT! NO DISCOUNTS. You want our great game... Be fair with us and PAY for it.

And for sure that $10-12 excludes things like artwork, illustrations, logos, customer shipping, reviewer copies, prototypes, etc. A whole BUNCH of stuff. IF we were all like BRYAN... WE'D ADD ALL THAT SHIT TOO!

And maybe instead of $10-12 USD, we'd have $20-25 USD. That means that the game is going to cost $100-125 USD... And now you see my point. It's too fucking expensive!!!

So remember, you're already giving everyone a game. Your "expenses" will be part of the sales price. But DON'T cut yourself short with too low pricing. Kickstarter and making games is a real art when it comes to all the finances. Bryan is right... We should charge more and that should be acceptable... BECAUSE if you sell your game at $50-60 USD... You WON'T have enough money for a second print run.

Careful planing, negotiate strong deals (fight for good pricing) and never go BELOW the 5x factor! Obviously "absorb" expenses and hopefully run a second print run at FULL PROFIT (100%). Don't be shy... Be BOLD. And tell people YOU WANT TO MAKE MORE GAMES!!! No profit = no more games...

From what I've seen NOBODY is ripping people off in the TableTop Segment. We're not like the @$$holes that do a "vapor-ware" video and fnck all the backers by not making anything. This hasn't happen in the TableTop Segment and I hope it never does...

But at the same time... Several of the BGDF designers have been through the KS routine... And we know that IT TAKES MORE!

Cheers...

Quoting the Famous Ferengi Rules of Acquisition...

Rule #2: The best deal is the one that brings the most profit.

And it should be followed by:

Rule #1: Once you have their money, you never give it back.

Just a bit of humor to lighten the discussion... But those of us who have been through the process know that this IS a serious issue.

Hmm... I doubt that all of the BGDF Designers who have "broken even" with their KS campaign would probably NOT agree. At least not if you want to be "serious" with designing games. Many of those designers have not re-couped their investment in artwork/illustrations. As such they are HOPING to sell the remainder of their "overstock" (Excess Inventory due to MOQ).

Many have like 600-400 game units available.

Granted if they "gave copies of their games for free"... Everyone would surely take a copy...!

I was of the same mindset: don't do it for money. But I have learned that when people are no longer interested in your project or any NEW projects because quite frankly they are fed up of WORKING for FREE! And can you blame them??? I mean they're investing hours of work in the evenings after working a regular week worth of work to make it happen.

If this happens, people who are in the "business" of publishing games get "discouraged" and lose hope for the future and don't see any benefits to continuing to Publish games... Some people get to that point... It's sad but unfortunately true.

And if you want to keep designing unless it's only a "Hobby" that you do after hours, you need to think about making money with your designs.

As a rough approximation, I had a $10 manufacturing cost, and I estimated $4/unit extra to get it here.

But getting toxicity tests costs $$. Having proofs sent by air (may) cost $$. Do you know what your customs fees will actually be? And ocean freight costs are VARIABLE, like buying a plane ticket is variable.

So part of that 5x builds in a little for error in knowing what it is you're supposed to be multiplying by five.

My game was $59 on KS (inclusive of shipping in US). I did not get a single comment that it was too much, even though, you know, that's a lot for "just a game". If you have a quality product, I don't think people in this segment care that much about the price (within reason). If you're looking to go mass-market (Walmart, Target, etc), that's different.

Oh yeah, you are going to underestimate what it will cost to get something to Europe. It's a lot!