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Greetings from a programmer

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sadakatsu
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Joined: 11/16/2018

Hi, I'm Joseph Craig. I use the moniker "Sadakatsu" whenever it's available. I am primarily a programmer, most of whose experience is with full-stack web development. I have been interested in game development for decades now, but I have found game design very intimidating. Now I am trying to get started and could use advice and ideas from people who have gotten past the start line.

I currently have two projects in mind with which I am hoping to get help.

The first seems more in line with what your community typically discusses. My friend and I love the idea of telling a story together with tabletop role-playing games. Our attempts to play through campaigns and one-shots have each failed for one or more of the following reasons: players did not want to read the admittedly thick and dense rulebooks, players were not interested in spending time building characters, players got bored spending two to four hours mostly talking with occasional dice rolls, players were not interested in agreeing to multiple play sessions, and some players seemed to find fun only in derailing the experience for everyone else. However, these same people will play even big box board games; their current favorite is Terraforming Mars with Corporate Era cards, Venus Next, and Preludes (which always seems to take at least three hours). We think that we could convince these people to play role-playing games with us if there were a system that would allow their role-playing to be more like gameplay from other games.

Our current idea is to make a gateway role-playing game that allows everyone to jump in with only enough preparation to learn the rules - including the game master. We think that it is possible for deck-building mechanics to support a generic encounter system that is quick, engaging, and provides enough hooks and encouragement for players to get into explaining what their characters are doing. We want to include random map generation, encounter generation, and even plot generation based simply on drawing cards and simple checks of the party's level. Of course, neither of us has designed a board game before, and I very much want help getting past stumbling blocks because the idea seems so fun.

My other idea does not seem to line up with what this community discusses, but I need to get ideas and criticism from game designers if it is going to have any chance of success. In trying to find programs to help me work on the game system discussed above, I found that there do not seem to be any successful tools aimed at game designers. Joris Dormans designed Machinations as a way to diagram and simulate game economies, but despite its getting what looks like a recent update, it seems that the game design community is not paying much attention. Vassal seems better, but it seems to be used almost exclusively by game players reach out to play their favorite already-published games with other people. boardgame.io seems very promising since it enables people to launch servers easily and even supports MCTS-based bot play, but some posts on this forum have strengthened my impression that many (most?) game designers do not want to have to learn to program.

Thus, it is my ridiculous, ambitious goal is to design an all-in-one game design tool that game designers could use to refine a raw idea into a product ready for submitting to a publisher. I have started a prototype called Sheireit where I hope to build a general tabletop design tool with an engine capable of playing those games, but I also document the features I think the final product should have.

It is my hope that this community can help me get a feel for whether game designers would actually like such a tool and to give me the feedback that would help me make the tool that game designers want.

So, if there is a tool that you wish you had, please let me know! I am hoping to start a thread here soon where I will go into more of the details behind my ideas that I listed on my project's README.

That's probably too much from me. Hello! Let's be friends ^_^

Jean
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Joined: 11/10/2018
welcome

Hello and welcome Joseph,

I've read your two projects and here's a quick feedback. I'm fairly new myself here btw :)

1/ I'm an avid tabletop rpg player and i'm surprised to read you cannot find players motivated enough. I live in Myanmar which is a very isolated country (where you cannot even find ANY rpg books or even order them online and still found players here. Have you tried local clubs?
Back in my days, the gateway role-playing game where Heroquest, and later Warhammer quest. I think nowadays it's Descent or Mansions of Madness. Figurines and maps really help to visualize. For me, everything random (and i LOVE rogue likes on PC) will not generate the same build up and story interest than a crafted quest, like for example on Mansions of Madness boardgame.

2/ "Machinations" lost me at the big algebra formula pasted. I'm not on the technical side so i guess it's not for me.
"game designers do not want to have to learn to program." > as far as i'm concerned, yes totally.
However, i found that fascinating and extremely useful, potentialy saving hundreds of hours -i would love to work with somebody who master that in my team, while i focus on design, writing, and art...

I'm very much a beginner, as i just released my first game next month.
It's light and family and tourists game, don't throw stones at me :D
Just got the BGG entry accepted!
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/265382/bagan-journey

Now working on the second game!
The hard part for me was definitely focus on ONE idea and execute it till the end.

Cheers,

Jay103
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Joined: 01/23/2018
Everyone loves the idea of

Everyone loves the idea of making a Massive Game Development Tool, but realistically I don't think it's that useful.. There was another post about such a project here maybe.. 2 months ago?

I think there's a market for gateway RPGs.. I made one myself, for a young audience (www.heroesandtreasure.com). Give me another year and I'll let you know how successful it was :)

FrankM
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Joined: 01/27/2017
Scope Creep

Welcome!

This sounds like an ambitious pair of projects. As mentioned, gateway PRGs are already a thing, but someone who can come up with a clever way to weave random/chosen character goals with episodic adventures with an overall plot will have accomplished quite a lot.

The Gigantic Game Development Tool idea ropes in a huge scope with little hope of doing all of it well. Specific tools (e.g., nanDeck for card design, Tabletop Simulator for physical gamepiece modeling, Zillions Of Games for logic, etc.) stand a better chance of excelling. But they have issues similar to what you mentioned for boardgame.io... they're practically programming languages.

Now if someone could throw together the middleware/IDE to use a bunch of specialist tools with at least minimal competence (letting the user dive deep into any of the tools "manually" for expert-level tweaks), it would accelerate the adoption of computer-assisted design in game development.

sadakatsu
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Joined: 11/16/2018
Thanks for the welcome, and defense against the dark arts

Thank you all for greeting me. I really do hope to work with this community increasingly as time passes, even if some of the heat I feel about some of the responses I got leak through this post.

Regarding the gateway role-playing game: I am sure that there are other people with whom we could play more traditional pen-and-paper RPGs if we wanted to look for them. I am also sure that there are already published games that have at least some of what we would like. However, both of us really enjoy playing with our specific group of friends, and both of us have wanted to design games for years, so we are trying to wed as many of our play goals together as we think we can get away with to make the game we really want to play. There is a high probability we will fail, but if we learn and have fun, we still gain, right?

Regarding the tool: I had been hesitant to post about my idea for a tool because I read some of the recent threads in this community about such ideas. These threads looked to be dominated by a couple members who were convinced such an idea was impractical and were determined to convince the original poster of the same. I was afraid that I would get a similar response, and it seems that such a response is starting. This community seems to be pretty successful, so I don't want to be driven away or get angry because of a little adversity (okay, a little late for that, but I'm trying). You are the people with whom I want to partner. Even if I can take the first step in making the tool game designers wished they had - even if they do not know it yet - this will be a massive success.

Comments like "such a tool would be useless" or "there is little hope of meeting all the goals well" are ones that quash nascent ambitions, regardless of the author's intent. They are written as though the matter is settled with established fact. They are also incorrect. The first comment does not allow for any room for the unknown. The second intimates that incompletely meeting the project's goals from the first release means that the product would never be adopted and thus never have the chance to perform better. Critical thinking does have an important place in the design process, but it has to be paired with the desire to identify problems so specific solutions can be sought. Immediate rejection of the product or the premise do not count.

I have probably vented my spleen too much (yeah, hi, this is my welcome thread, I'm a cantankerous old coot at the age of 33), so I'll switch contexts. As depressing and frustrating as I found those comments, I think there is opportunity hiding behind those sentiments. Why would an all-in-one design tool be useless? What would it need to not be useless? What is the first feature this tool provide that would soothe your biggest frustration in the game design process?

I will accept in part the concern that someone who tries to meet every possible need is unlikely to satisfy anybody, but I say that there is great evidence that general tools that met one need really well got the support community support to survive through rougher earlier generations as they improved at the other areas as well (e.g., Unity). So... what is the feature that no tool yet provides that would earn community approval such that they keep supporting the effort until it so that a future major version could finally do it all?

I currently suspect that what game designers really want is a tool that operates at the level of concepts and ideas. Something like... "There is a resource called Excelsior. It is represented by a deck of cards that are placed in the general play area, face down. During the round set-up, a new card from the Excelsior deck is revealed, covering previous (if any) remaining cards. The active player can buy this card by permanently discarding four other cards. Upon purchase, the card permanently gives the owner the effects it details." Using different perspectives of the game mechanics, a designer could start adding ideas into his game, linking them in different places with either drop-downs or drag-and-drops. The result would be an IDE that feels like a web site design wizard, but is fact generating data and code from the decisions the user makes. I think that an initial Sheireit release might temporarily export the game to boardgame.io, but I think that providing an engine to play the games as well is a killer feature that is almost as important as the combination of the creation UI and data format.

This is, of course, my supposition as a programmer, not a game designer. My game design experience is limited to having designed an arcade game called _Clean Your Room!_ and an _Unreal Tournament 2004_ deathmatch level. I need your help to answer the questions that will refine Sheireit's design. I understand that people are skeptical, but how often has this community's members had to fight past skepticism to make something great? Thus, I would greatly appreciate ideas regarding what people wished they could use right now or were disappointed was not in other products they tried. With the right ideas and encouragement, I think we can together make something really useful.

let-off studios
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Joined: 02/07/2011
Hello!

...And welcome to BGDF. I'm just some guy (as in, I have yet to be published like some of the other folks here who have already chimed-in), but I did want to share some thoughts.

sadakatsu wrote:
There is a high probability we will fail, but if we learn and have fun, we still gain, right?
Right on man, right on. Don't lose this attitude, no matter how much shade people might send your way.

sadakatsu wrote:
Regarding the tool:
Why would an all-in-one design tool be useless? What would it need to not be useless? What is the first feature this tool provide that would soothe your biggest frustration in the game design process?

I will accept in part the concern that someone who tries to meet every possible need is unlikely to satisfy anybody, but I say that there is great evidence that general tools that met one need really well got the support community support to survive through rougher earlier generations as they improved at the other areas as well (e.g., Unity).

I'd say that you can go along this track as long as the endurance of your development cycle holds out. Will you and your development team have the fortitude and finances to devote time to polishing one aspect of design well enough to generate that fan base that will carry you through development of the other design modules?

As smart as these other folks seem to be most of the time, I don't think any of us can answer that for you. I think you personally need to make the decision to say yes, I am in it and will go big, or no I will just stick with "doing one thing really well." There will always be setbacks and/naysayers, but if you begin the process without having visualized your success then it would be better that you not start.

Regardless of your choice: enjoy the journey. :)

FrankM
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Joined: 01/27/2017
Design Goals

sadakatsu wrote:
The second intimates that incompletely meeting the project's goals from the first release means that the product would never be adopted and thus never have the chance to perform better.

That's not what I meant, but I can see it being interpreted that way. The problem with bringing a general tool into a world with specialist tools is that your potential userbase needs to be poached from some or all of the existing tools. One major problem these specialist tools have is interoperability... that one killer feature might be sufficient.

As in any software development effort, you need to have your target user population in mind. You have that. It also helps tremendously if you're in the target user population, which you happen to be. You'll need at least passable functionality to make your own RPG with the tool, diving deep into at least one of those areas.

I still think that designing your tool to plug into existing specialist tools will help you add the most value the fastest. It might start as simple import/export, especially for functions you don't feel are core to your IDE. Top of my list would be nanDeck for deck design and GameCrafter for prototype fabrication (they are each on this forum under "nand" and "The Game Crafter" respectively). I'm sure I'm leaving out some other provider who's also on BGDF.

Best of luck with the project.

Fertessa
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Joined: 07/18/2018
Welcome Sadakatsu! You asked

Welcome Sadakatsu! You asked about how people got past the starting line, so I'll write with that in mind.

Don't ask people about your idea until you have something physical that they can actually test. Ideas are easy to come by. The hard part is making them a reality. Ideas are also low commitment. You can ask a stranger's opinion, and it takes less than a few seconds for them to go, yeah that could be good, or sounds good. If that person has had negative experiences in the past, it's also easy for them to go no, that's terrible, or no- I'd never want that. (I remember when the first iPad came out and everyone laughed at the ridiculous name, now it's a household item).

Asking about ideas before you've acted on them is just giving yourself a reason to back out of your own idea. You're aiming big, and it may take years to get to some form of success, but if you earnestly pursue your idea, then you have just as much a shot as any to achieve it. So to bring it back to the point, I get past the starting line by acting first,t hen asking second. That way people can tell me WHY my idea is trash, rather than just blindly tell me my idea is trash. The WHY is the important tool that helps me refine my idea until it's a shiny, buffed up treasure.

On a last note, go ahead and build your designers tool. Build a tool that you can use down the road. If you find that it's effective for you, THEN share it with the community. Even if you get negative feedback, it will still be an effective tool for at least one person (you). And again, you can use that negative feedback to improve on your tool until it becomes something the entire community can use, like you envisioned.

wob
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Joined: 06/09/2017
welcome to the forum. i dont

welcome to the forum.
i dont have much to say about the development tool other than they are good in theory but, to me, seem like an odd concept. personally i like my digital to be digital and my analogue, analogue. if i wanted a digital game i would play a video game (though oddly i have no problem with digital versions of classic abstracts). but i am a ludite.
your gateway rpg is a laudable idea that, i think, is yet to be done properly. they either seem a) so light or random they arn't worth playing or b) require a week of reading or a working knowledge of rpgs to learn.
admittedly i have only ever played a hand full of rpgs (at least "full" rpgs-i have played a few with rpg aspects) but getting the balance is going to be hard.
i think somthing rpgs lack that other games have is the "exploring gameplay" (not the right word) in that you cant just start playing and figure it out as you go (at least it seems that way to a non-rpg-er).

Jay103
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Joined: 01/23/2018
sadakatsu wrote:Regarding

sadakatsu wrote:

Regarding the gateway role-playing game: I am sure that there are other people with whom we could play more traditional pen-and-paper RPGs if we wanted to look for them. I am also sure that there are already published games that have at least some of what we would like. However, both of us really enjoy playing with our specific group of friends, and both of us have wanted to design games for years, so we are trying to wed as many of our play goals together as we think we can get away with to make the game we really want to play. There is a high probability we will fail, but if we learn and have fun, we still gain, right?

I wouldn't say there's a high probability of failure, but it IS a lot of work, and it's worth researching what's out there already, because you're going to be compared to five other things immediately, if your game looks like them at all.

As for the "lot of work" part, after the game is "done", it'll take you at least that long to get it actually DONE, and then again as much time (plus money) to get it made and into customer's hands.

Quote:
Regarding the tool: I had been hesitant to post about my idea for a tool because I read some of the recent threads in this community about such ideas. These threads looked to be dominated by a couple members who were convinced such an idea was impractical and were determined to convince the original poster of the same. I was afraid that I would get a similar response, and it seems that such a response is starting.

Well, it's the same members, so you're likely to get a similar answer.

The previous guy had a very specific and long list of what features were going to go in the tool. Maybe your lists and goals are different.

Quote:
Comments like "such a tool would be useless" or "there is little hope of meeting all the goals well" are ones that quash nascent ambitions, regardless of the author's intent.

Some would call that "realism" :)

Quote:
They are written as though the matter is settled with established fact. They are also incorrect. The first comment does not allow for any room for the unknown. The second intimates that incompletely meeting the project's goals from the first release means that the product would never be adopted and thus never have the chance to perform better. Critical thinking does have an important place in the design process, but it has to be paired with the desire to identify problems so specific solutions can be sought. Immediate rejection of the product or the premise do not count.

You should also bear in mind that, unlike a game design, this is a product intended for use by EXACTLY this audience. If the audience says it doesn't seem like a great idea, that's different from some game designers telling you that a game design doesn't seem like a great idea..

For example, I don't do SO much design that I'd learn to use any new tool that didn't enable me to do something I couldn't do otherwise. NANDeck? Yes. Photoshop? Yes. Inkscape, Scribus..? Yes. Tool that organizes the list of what parts I'm using in a game? No. Maybe if I were tracking 40 games at once, but I'm not.

Quote:
I currently suspect that what game designers really want is a tool that operates at the level of concepts and ideas. Something like... "There is a resource called Excelsior. It is represented by a deck of cards that are placed in the general play area, face down. During the round set-up, a new card from the Excelsior deck is revealed, covering previous (if any) remaining cards. The active player can buy this card by permanently discarding four other cards. Upon purchase, the card permanently gives the owner the effects it details."

Sure, but I do that now by typing that paragraph (or bullet points representing that same information) into a draft in my gmail account. Could also put it in Drive, I suppose.

Writing or learning a tool for that seems like overkill.

And, personally, I'm unlikely to generate fifty different "mechanics" ideas that were sort of free-floating, waiting to be plugged-and-played into a specific game idea. Maybe others do that, but.. shrug.

Kienata
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Joined: 11/26/2018
I support ridiculous ambitious goals

Welcome and thank you for sharing.

First, don't be discouraged. Everyone is an expert when all they have to share is there opinion.

Ill speak to the tool idea your working on. I think its an excellent idea and I would love to see a tool that covers some of the more complex design goals I have. Admittedly the concept you propose for a tool is NOT a trivial project but, that fact, should have no bearing on the value of the idea itself.

You mentioned that some tools include a back-end scripting language that can be used to create more complex mechanics or leverage very specialized behavior. I LOVE that this is a feature in some of these tools however the learning barrier for someone with little or no programming experience is easily enough to discourage many users. Its just too much to ask of most people. Not only is this my opinion, an entire industry has already taken note of this fact and adapted to it. There IS a better way, it just hasn't been developed for a tabletop designer. Its used in video games instead.

As a fairly well versed modder I can tell you that games with tools that enable easier modding drive massive communities (Unreal, Bethesda, Blizzard, to name a few). I think what your looking for is an emulation of the same kinds of tools seen in a Dev Kit, Creation Kit, Extension, Plugin, etc.

Unreal features a node system for basic mechanics(you can still program in C# and C++). Both the Starcraft and Warcraft world builders also incorporate the rough equivalent of a node or “Visual” scripting system. Unity, as well as Keen titles also have a “Visual scripting” system. Other titles include similar tools that allow the user to perform a broad range of programming tasks without ever needing to learn a language and with a minimal barrier to entry.

The goal of these tools is to drive the modder or content creator to make more content for a title with as small a barrier as possible. Its well known that support of modding communities contributes directly to product lifespan. I would love to see a tool for board game design make use of this.

There are many, many more innovations used by the modding community that would apply directly to streamlining and enabling users of a design software. After all, creating a new system from the bits and pieces of existing systems is the foundation of not just modding, but game creation in general.

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