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Shoe
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Joined: 12/21/2012

Hi, I'm Shoe I am an indie game designer with one self published work (Mad Scientist!) and several more games trying to work their way off my desk and into the light of day at any given time. I am curious how to contribute to a forum like these without giving away my original ideas. After having had someone rip off my game and produce a successful kickstarter of a game that is 90+% the same as mine I am extremely paranoid about sharing ideas. On the flip side, honest game designers are a valuable resource in making sure a game is fun and balanced. How do you balance keeping your ideas to yourself with contributing to a community like this one?

I am anxious to have the opportunity to collaborate with fellow game designers!

-Shoe
shoebox-games.com

pelle
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welcome!

I hope you decide to stay and share. And search the forum for old threads on this subject. Although your experience with actually having been ripped off is a new twist to it. Was that a new idea you had only mentioned and someone found it worthy of cloning?

Shoe
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it was actually a game I had

it was actually a game I had already published and sold copies of. I didnt have the money for a patent, but I had had a small amount of success with the game at a couple of conventions, but I was self publishing so it wasn't wide spread. The guy of course claimed that he never heard of my game, but even the art style and the way the cards were laid out dripped of thievery.

I badly want to think that this was an isolated incident, but several of my friends who know people in the game design business talk about having hear a lot about idea theft in the industry...this is all heresy of course so I really have no idea

bhazzard
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I don't have any published

I don't have any published works, so take my opinion at face value.

In general I would think your experience is an isolated incident, and that the value you get from sharing and getting feedback will be greater than your risk. Hopefully this particular lightning won't strike twice

BubbleChucks
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Joined: 06/07/2012
Do I continue designing in

Do I continue designing in secret seclusion or do I begin the process of sharing my projects with others?

It’s a question that I asked myself before actively contributing to the discussions.

If I choose to start sharing then my project(s) could benefit from additional input and fresh perspectives, I could help others with their projects, and only a glimmer of my own designs need be exposed – or nothing at all.

I think everyone here is so focused on helping each other out, and discussing interesting ideas, that the notion of ‘hide your hat’ protection doesn’t really crop up; although it’s an open forum so that doesn’t offer much of an indication about the people who might view the postings without making themselves known.

As to myself, I like the free flowing ideas and discussions. I would never lift an idea off another designer, because I have enough trouble happily hammering my own designs into shape without adding to their number.

Although, I might contribute a comment about a game which fires the little grey cells into action, leading to offshoot ideas. I think this is another great aspect of the forum in that thinking about other game ideas can lead to many a new idea.

You might be contributing to a game that revolves around bidding, which sparks an idea about alternative bidding systems or a new system. Then again, you could be discussing a game with a particular theme and find yourself contemplating the use of a variation in a different game with different mechanics.

This last one lead to one of my designs changing to a Ninja Aliens who are Time Dumped into a Renaissance setting where they have to fight off an army of Zombie Villagers theme – with pixel graphic artwork.

I think it’s a case of share whatever you’re comfortable sharing, contribute where you have something to add and foremost – have fun designing games.

duchamp
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Joined: 12/25/2012
More is more secure

In Göttingen, each year 150 game designers present their new ideas and prototypes. To each other, and to editors of all game companies. On BGG, there are lots of games with their rules online, without being published yet. In General, I would say: More public is more secure. Right now, I prepare my game Steam Noir: Revolution for a crowdfunding campaign. On its blog-website you can learn a lot about the development and how it is played. I sent the current rules and a PnP DIY set to over 25 people around the world (okay, I know these!). I did all this without any patent (laws in Germany are absolutely different about all this!). But since the game is already presented to a lot of people, you can easily verify to anybody who was first, in case of trouble. And people will hesitate to steal your idea.
If you "hide" your idea, the danger of this idea being stolen is much higher. Because you HAVE to show it to some people. You know these films or stories, where two people meet and talk to each other and realize, they are alone, and nobody knows, they are there - and then one of them muggers the other?
Go ahead, Andrew and shoe your things, put them on BGG, even without revealing the main twist, but to show, that it is existing.
Hope, you will stay here and get the feedback and info ayou want and need. :-)

pelle
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I had to look at the Mad

I had to look at the Mad Scientist!rulebook. It says patent pending. Im curious what part of the game that would be for?

Also are you not afraid of trademark trouble since there seema to be a much older and more known game called Mad Scientist?

Shoe
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Joined: 12/21/2012
The ‘!’ in the title gets

The ‘!’ in the title gets around any legal issues with the game title, and the game name and box art are different enough. You cannot have a patent on a name of a game, only a trademark, which I never applied for or claim to have the rights to. Also, the game Mad Scientist is from 2006 and was not in production for very long and support for the game was terminated quickly by WOTC. I probably would have changed the name of the game if I hadn’t already printed 20 copies by the time I found ‘Mad Scientist’ but according to the patent paperwork, I didn’t have much to worry about. The best way to get in trouble is to have similar mechanics, not a similar title.

I did pay to have a Provisional patent, which for a year, counted as a limited patent while you basically have the opportunity to pay an exorbitant amount to get a full patent. (specifically the provisional patent was for the game rules, all of the art is uncopywrited, as is the title.) By the time the other game was posted on kickstarter, my provisional patent had been expired for 2 years, and the rules of my game that come in purchased copies actually don't say patent pending anymore.

As mentioned above, I like duchamp’s take on the issue. The more public you are, the harder it is for someone to get away with the piracy. I think that makes me more comfortable than anything I’ve heard.

Holly Verssen
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Joined: 11/29/2012
I think it's OK

There are zillions of games on WWII Battle of the Bulge, or Alexander the Great, or battles in space. The topic is not nearly as important as YOUR personal skill as a designer. Even if someone steals your idea, they can never steal your creativity or the spin you would put on your subject.

...and if both YOUR game, and the person who stole your idea's game came out at the same time, the sales would go to the more creative designer.

Don't be afraid of someone stealing your ideas, only be afraid of running out of ideas.
Or WORSE, having great game ideas, but never finishing them.

Shoe
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Joined: 12/21/2012
It wasn't just the theme that

It wasn't just the theme that was the same in this case, the name of the game was Mad Science the Card Game, the mechanics were similar, and even some of the terminology was the same. Also, the game came out 2 years after mine.

All in all, I don't think I am worried about it as much. Honestly, having an entire forum of people to back me up and say "Shoe did it first" probably would be decent protection against further ripoff anyway, so I think I have settled my nerves.

Thanks everyone!
-Shoe

pelle
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Joined: 08/11/2008
Shoe, you need to find a

Shoe, you need to find a better lawyer before one of your game is successful enough to get the attention of a bigger company.

Trademarks cover any name that is similar enough to be possible to confuse with your name. The fact that you are allowed to register a trademark by changing a letter or adding an exclamation mark is not the same as that it is ok. It is the job of the trademark owner's lawyers to find out about you having a too similar name and drag you to court when they notice. Otherwise try to register "Coca Cola!" next time and see how that works out. ;)

Patents only cover specific solutions and are easy to work around. Not much protection unless your game is very specific. The most well-known game patent is for Magic (the tapping mechanic) but even that has been successfully worked around by many game designers by slightly changing how it works. Good luck patenting an entire rulebook. I mean, patenting is easy, until someone else challenges it.

BGG lists Mad Scientist games and modules from 1986, 2005, 2009 and many more years. Looks like more than two games, but at least one that has had many expansions published over the years.

pelle
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Joined: 08/11/2008
recommended reading everyone

It would be great if BGDF could have a big link to this information, to avoid having to go through these things every week:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/493249/mythbusting-game-design-and-c...

(Yes, it is US specific, but these things are covered by so many international treaties it does not matter much, and everyone probably want to be able to sell their games in the US anyway.)

Can we get back to discussing game design now? :)

Shoe
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Joined: 12/21/2012
I've been considering

I've been considering re-releasing the game...it may be time for a re-titling. I didn't have a patent lawyer, I had 0 budget for designing and producing the game. I did all the patent research myself. All the wordings are somewhat vague and it's very possible I overlooked something. It was my first design and I don't claim to be great with legaleese.

pelle
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Joined: 08/11/2008
I hope you do not take my

I hope you do not take my comments in a bad way. Just trying to help. It can be difficult to get the right tone of voice through on an online forum. You seem like you have many interesting things to say on various topics here and I do not want to scare you away.

Shoe
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Joined: 12/21/2012
not at all, I wouldnt be

not at all, I wouldnt be talking about it if I didnt want input :)

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