-I've decided to use GameLand to manufacture my game. Because they are the only one's that continued forward with the quote process.
-I've decided against TGC because my game was almost $52 per unit. I can't think of anyone except hobby gamer's that would pay that price for a game, and I don't think any hobby gamer's will be buying my game. So I ordered one for promo purposes and its off to China.
-I will order 1000 units. Hopefully I sell 200 but as of yet the Tariff hasn't passed and this will save me money in the future if that happens. Also I have a shot at going viral and selling 600 which would get me into the Green for this project!!!
-GameLand says they can have me games by October before the Holiday season!! I know that if anything goes wrong that could be close....but I've got to HOPE!!
-I'm looking at 6.78 per unit cost.
-No idea on Freight Forwarding yet.
-Still don't have a lock down on Fulfillment. None of the typical Board Game fulfillment companies wanted my business. Perhaps they're hobby gamer's??? I'm sort of a black sheep in this community, I think because my game looks like Monopoly!!
-I may create a marketing campaign that goes something like this "If you like Monopoly then you'll Love Holiday Fever A Family Tradition".
-I'm set on finding a Fulfillment company in SLC Utah, because its close enough for me to drive to and pick up the games that don't get sold this Holiday Season and store them myself until holidays 2020.
-Thinking about doing a KS in November with a very low goal, offering a coupon for donations (keep from paying KS too much cash) that backers can take to the website and get the game for Cheap!! Just a marketing idea.
Please shoot some holes, give me your idea's, experience, strength, hope!!!
Comments
BubbleChucks wrote:I'm happy
One thing I might recommend is asking Gameland if they can print a pattern on the insert. Nothing fancy, just something fancy like a replicated design using some of the graphic elements you already have, like the stockings, gingerbread man and hat on a green background.
The linkup you made with making life blissful is a good move, but you don't have to send her a lot of copies. One is usually more than enough, so two or three would be very generous. Every copy that is sent to a blogger or a reviewer is money lost, although it can lead to a greater return by getting word out to potential customers.
Having read your post about Reddog Mercantile got me worried again. I had a quick look on his site and that raised my concern level higher.
This page shows his client list
https://reddogmercantile.com/shop/
According to that page he currently has eight clients. Clicking on their links four of those companies have nothing listed on Amazon. So half of his clients are currently receiving no representation at all.
Now this is interesting. One of his ex clients Fridolin puzzles now offers their products on their own Amazon listing.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fridolin-17362-Wooden-Letter-Puzzle/dp/B005X6CN8I
For an impartial assessment of what he can add to your retail sales I would contact them and ask them why they dispensed with his services.
They can be contacted on their own webpage at
https://fridolin-shop.de/IQ-Test/bamboo-puzzle
As another interesting side note they also sell traditional games of the wooden variety as well as links with a retailer in France.
https://www.lesjouetsenbois.eu/brands/fridolin-uk
Who knows, they might be a better retail partner with a better global reach as well as the ability to create a fairly simple Amazon listing.
From what you said I'm not entirely sure about the offer that has been proposed. Granting a person or company retail exclusivity is a big thing, because it cuts down on a huge number of retail outlets and it can also impact on your profits to a significant degree. You are in essence handing over a big slice of control relating to how your products are sold ( the timeframe of that contract being limited or unlimited spending on what you sign ).
For a small outlay of $150 you are potentially giving up retail control of your game. Looking at the arrangement from the perspective of Reddog that is an amazing deal. He puts forward $150 and he stands to recoup that along with a profit. Moving on he will receive $15 from the sale of every game while you will receive $7.50, 30 - 15 - 7.50 ( production costs ).
So in essence he stands to earn twice as much as you for spending a matter of minutes setting up an Amazon listing. Taking into account the time, effort and expense you have put into your game that seems like a very poor deal.
Normally when you make such an agreement ( usually for a much better return ) a walk away term is also included. Something like, if you don't sell x copies within any given month the contract ends. It protects the creator from poor performance on the part of the distributor.
Secondly, you should be thinking about the future. If the duration of the contract is unlimited and it does take off he will be in the driving seat when it comes to negotiations, not you. In respect to any future contract negotiations he will rule the roost and you will have to take what he gives you.
What you are thinking about giving away is a HUGE amount in return for a trivial $150 in the form of a pre-sale return. You could spend a day researching how to set up an Amazon seller account and do the same thing yourself without him.
Look at the numbers
1000 games @ $30 equals $30,000 in potential revenue.
Your spending currently includes $8,000 on artwork and $7,500 on manufacturing. So your costs to date are $15,500. If all of your games are sold via Amazon you will receive $15,000. That will be just enough to break even.
If he charges you the Amazon fees you will be running at a loss. Even if he doesn't the cost of storage probably means you will be even without the fees, unless you have a big garage.
In contrast Reddog stands to make $15,000 for just a few minutes work and an overall investment of $150 which he has a very good chance of getting back with interest on the sale of his initial 10 units.
Busting your nuts to break even while someone else assumes retail control of your product with the potential to earn $15,000 seem like a very poor deal to me. Especially when you will be putting a lot of extra work into generating interest in your game through marketing while he does, nothing.
To get an indication of the effort he puts into marketing the products of his clients click on the links for the products of his remaining four clients, scroll down and look at the best sellers rank box. None of the products he is representing are doing astounding business.
I'm guessing that EURO TOOL belongs to Reddog himself and the other companies are people he has met at craft fairs - he seems like a woodworker or tool specialist.
https://www.amazon.com/s/other?pickerToList=brandtextbin&qid=1569369169&...
I don't have the faintest clue what the Roberto Cavalli listing is all about ( I only clicked on it because I have a lot of clothes by him - jeans mainly ). However, the fact that it shows a t-shirt and a product outline for a DVD about knife slip joints doesn't suggest a professional eye for detail in his listings.
You need to clarify whether his exclusivity applies to just Amazon or all retail outlets and what the timeframe for the length of the contract is going to be, along with a strict get out clause to protect yourself and your game.
I would strongly advise you to spend a day researching how selling on Amazon works, list the game yourself, keep full retail control of your game and preserve the potential for you to actually earn a decent amount of money from all of your hard work.
Clear the Amazon stardust from your eyes. Amazon is a hugely influential company, but Reddog isn't representing Amazon he is simply one of a million everyday resellers representing himself.
So I would urge you to try and contact Fridolin. Doing business on the strength of the word given by a person you have only just met isn't entirely unreasonable in some cases. However, doing a bit of research about them before signing am important contract is generally the wisest route to take.
On another front, engaging with you and your project propelled me towards designing my own roll and move Christmas game. I haven't designed a game centred on a roll and move mechanic before so I saw it as an interesting challenge.
So thank you for motivating me to attempt something new.
The design work is all done ( took me a day or so ) and I will crank out the artwork over the coming week. Rest assured it is very different from your game. I don't hold with plagiarism or copying games with minor tweaks.
BubbleChucks WOW, thank you so much for putting in the time to help me research and share your wisdom. I'm going to get answers for all the points you brought up. I emailed Fridolin about Reddog, and I asked Reddog himself what the situation is, and for more references. I asked for all his contracts etc... I would NOT sign anything for more than the 2019 season, and I would not sign anything allowing him to be the only retailer of the game. I would sign a contract allowing him to be the only retailer on Amazon exclusively but I'm going to search out brick and mortar retailers over the next 3 years. For example I will submit my game to Deseret Books in January of February and see if they will pick me up. I believe they have about 38 stores. It could be a great opportunity which my game is a great fit.
I would love to take a look at your game? Maybe we can support each other and link websites or something. I think the Roll-and-Move is coming back into Vogue and hopefully we can be the new trend setters!!
I Will Never Grow Up Gaming
My personal advice is to walk away from that contract. You do not want to give someone exclusive rights without significant upfront investment and you certainly don't want to do it at cost (or worse, at a loss).
Combine all of this with Reddog Merchantile having nothing to do with games and a seemingly minor track record of Amazon selling, I'm not sure what exactly they are bringing to the table for you that you can't do yourself.
You CAN list your games on Amazon and fulfill them yourself from your home. You do not need to have them stored and fulfilled by amazon at some great expense. Yes, your listings get less recognition (but likely no less than Reddog Merchantile) and your customers will be paying somewhat higher shipping (aka: no free shipping from amazon prime membership) but that's ok.
You and quest bring up a great point, but I'm so busy with my normal Job that hiring help has become a blessing. I am not a computer guy, and all this Amazon, Social Media, even smart phone stuff is new to me. If I could set up Amazon on my own I would in a heart beat. I will continue to look at Reddog, and I've signed nothing yet. Again I will NOT allow him to be the only retailer, or sign for longer than 2019 only. If my game begins to build a following I will have all next year to learn the Amazon stuff etc..... I appreciate your time. Thank You.
Jay103 wrote:Don't forget
Um, the game is finished, so.. that might be a good idea for a second print run, but it'll be a while.
That was a lot of research on the Amazon distributor, BubbleChucks!
As for Amazon, I actually set myself up as an Amazon merchant about 6-7 years ago.. it's not that hard, and I didn't even have a full business set up at the time (a bank account, a DBA, etc.). Probably harder now, but still.. doable.
Jay I will likely get about a pallet sent out to my home for some Christmas Bazaars, and a bunch of Local stores that will HOPEFULLY sell my game. The grocery store always has a local product display at the entrance. We have several Emporium type drug stores that sell games, and souvenirs etc. So I'm guessing I will have to foot the bill for 2 pallets at QM for 2020 year. I'm happy to pay that to keep from the hassle of keeping those games in good shape and not shipping them USPS myself.
QM may be able to set me up on Amazon too!! I'm obviously really behind schedule this year, but I'm just so grateful to get games, and hopefully sell 200 copies, and get 10 social media posts of people who love the game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Overall
Each one of you that has helped me over the years is so kind and generous. Thank you for keeping me in line, and helping me bring a game to the world. Man this has been intense and difficult, but so rewarding to see it through. I appreciate everyone who has helped me and continues to help me figure out this business. I will make it up to each of you if the least I can do is buy a copy of your games, and try to give my 2 cents when I think it may help!! MUCH Love!! Again THANK YOU ALL!!
I will continue to add details as they come in!
Superfans WANT IT FIRST!
Indeed IF you pass the price of shipping to Reddog, all he is going to do is UP the MSRP of the game. So if it's $17.50 USD/unit, he'll probably just charge $35 USD/unit... He doesn't lose anything off his bottom line.
Like I said PRICING is VERY important. Why? Because if you START by charging people $30 USD/unit on Amazon.com and then figure out your margins are TOO TIGHT and want to UP the unit price... People may be offended by this. Usually the price is HIGHER (when it first comes out) and then with time, the price goes down (as does the demand)...
Because I used to be a consultant, I've read several books on the subject and unfortunately I can't say if it was in ONE (1) or several of them... They specifically talk about "Adding Value". And so I think about your 1,000 Superfans idea is reasonable, there's another way of looking at it.
What matters is that YOU are delivering A GAME. Now if we base everything on "pure" pricing, you would want everything IN with a "5x" multiplier to be your MSRP.
BUT in the world of "Value", it's YOUR game and people who want to play it usually have an "effective" price point. This is akin to your "consulting rate". Too high and you will have a hard time getting a gig and too low might discourage potential customers because everyone needs to eat at the end of the day...
So you are bringing HUGE "Value" with THIS game. Nobody else. It's all on YOU. Remember Monopoly is getting HUGE Economies of Scale. They probably ORDER 100,000 units per season. (Not quite ... but you get the point!) Therefore on a price point, you can't be EXPECTED to "Run with the Big Dogs" unless you establish "your community".
I think you have some latitude. IF in YEAR #1 you don't CARE about PRICE... THAT'S EXACTLY IT! "Price it a bit HIGHER!" Maybe charge Reddog $18 USD/unit (and you eat the shipping cost from QM to Amazon.com). He'll then charge $36 USD/unit a "2x" retail factor.
Add the $13 USD/unit shipping, makes it $49 USD/unit ALL-IN. I think that's the LIMIT to how HIGH you can START... Just under the $50 USD marker... Lighter games with less components, regular boards, etc...
You will have a hard time trying to squeak by that threshold.
But the GOOD news is that Year #1 is NOT about "Profit". It's finding the REAL ENTHUSIASTS that "don't give a cr@p about the $49 USD price point!" They only care that you gave them great "VALUE" by making this game available for them to purchase. You are right, it is about finding people who WANT this game. And it's maybe a good idea to start a BIT higher and see how it goes.
Later you can offer a $5 USD/unit coupon off of retail, when you sell the game DIRECTLY yourself. That sounds NORMAL to me...
ALL games start at the HIGHER PRICE POINT and then lower as time goes by. This KS business is pure cr@p too... KS_2.0 is price it as you VALUE it. Don't compete with all the other games, deliver a GREAT product and offer it at a "reasonable" price point. Don't KILL your margins right off the gate!
Just some of my thoughts on the matter. Again you are more than welcome to ignore my ramblings and what could be misconstrued as "advice". I'm just trying to ensure you MAKE something... at some point.
Price Point
Indeed IF you pass the price of shipping to Reddog, all he is going to do is UP the MSRP of the game. So if it's $17.50 USD/unit, he'll probably just charge $35 USD/unit... He doesn't lose anything off his bottom line.
Like I said PRICING is VERY important. Why? Because if you START by charging people $30 USD/unit on Amazon.com and then figure out your margins are TOO TIGHT and want to UP the unit price... People may be offended by this. Usually the price is HIGHER (when it first comes out) and then with time, the price goes down (as does the demand)...
Because I used to be a consultant, I've read several books on the subject and unfortunately I can't say if it was in ONE (1) or several of them... They specifically talk about "Adding Value". And so I think about your 1,000 Superfans idea is reasonable, there's another way of looking at it.
What matters is that YOU are delivering A GAME. Now if we base everything on "pure" pricing, you would want everything IN with a "5x" multiplier to be your MSRP.
BUT in the world of "Value", it's YOUR game and people who want to play it usually have an "effective" price point. This is akin to your "consulting rate". Too high and you will have a hard time getting a gig and too low might discourage potential customers because everyone needs to eat at the end of the day...
So you are bringing HUGE "Value" with THIS game. Nobody else. It's all on YOU. Remember Monopoly is getting HUGE Economies of Scale. They probably ORDER 100,000 units per season. (Not quite ... but you get the point!) Therefore on a price point, you can't be EXPECTED to "Run with the Big Dogs" unless you establish "your community".
I think you have some latitude. IF in YEAR #1 you don't CARE about PRICE... THAT'S EXACTLY IT! "Price it a bit HIGHER!" Maybe charge Reddog $18 USD/unit (and you eat the shipping cost from QM to Amazon.com). He'll then charge $36 USD/unit a "2x" retail factor.
Add the $13 USD/unit shipping, makes it $49 USD/unit ALL-IN. I think that's the LIMIT to how HIGH you can START... Just under the $50 USD marker... Lighter games with less components, regular boards, etc...
You will have a hard time trying to squeak by that threshold.
But the GOOD news is that Year #1 is NOT about "Profit". It's finding the REAL ENTHUSIASTS that "don't give a cr@p about the $49 USD price point!" They only care that you gave them great "VALUE" by making this game available for them to purchase. You are right, it is about finding people who WANT this game. And it's maybe a good idea to start a BIT higher and see how it goes.
Later you can offer a $5 USD/unit coupon off of retail, when you sell the game DIRECTLY yourself. That sounds NORMAL to me...
ALL games start at the HIGHER PRICE POINT and then lower as time goes by. This KS business is pure cr@p too... KS_2.0 is price it as you VALUE it. Don't compete with all the other games, deliver a GREAT product and offer it at a "reasonable" price point. Don't KILL your margins right off the gate!
Just some of my thoughts on the matter. Again you are more than welcome to ignore my ramblings and what could be misconstrued as "advice". I'm just trying to ensure you MAKE something... at some point.
Quest, you think I should sell at $40 USD and then offer a flat rate shipping at $9 dollars, for a total out the door at $49? QM will be charging about $12.32 shipping and fulfillment.
You're now making a lot more sense to me. I do want to find the enthusiast this year, and that is all I really care about. People that will love the game, and post about how much fun it is. I could then sell $35 USD at the Bazar and Local gift stores. Thank you for continuing to explain this to me in a way that finally is making sense. As you know it takes me a while to catch on!!
Ah I see your point now!
Are you going to be shipping to CUSTOMERS directly from QM??? That sounds a lot like the "OLD" Amazon.com way. The *NEW* way is to ship your product to an Amazon.com warehouse (there are a bunch in the USA)...
Are you saying that you want to EAT $4 per shipment???
And am I correctly understanding that you want to charge Reddog $20 USD per unit sold?? Yeah you are starting to understand what I am talking about...
Exactly. I don't know about how the Bazar works. Do you just pay for a table or is it an amount per sale (like $5.00), not sure. For the Gift Store, they will probably want 50% (normal markup).
questccg wrote:evansmind244
Are you going to be shipping to CUSTOMERS directly from QM??? That sounds a lot like the "OLD" Amazon.com way. The *NEW* way is to ship your product to an Amazon.com warehouse (there are a bunch in the USA)...
Are you saying that you want to EAT $4 per shipment???
And am I correctly understanding that you want to charge Reddog $20 USD per unit sold?? Yeah you are starting to understand what I am talking about...
Exactly. I don't know about how the Bazar works. Do you just pay for a table or is it an amount per sale (like $5.00), not sure. For the Gift Store, they will probably want 50% (normal markup).
Yes I will be shipping directly through QM. They charge a flat rate for shipping and fulfillment (12.32). If I end up selling to Red Dog he will take care of all the shipping. I'm assuming he will set up his own shipping from QM. I am going to have an entire pallet shipped to my house for local purposes. I could give Reddog games to ship out of here to the closest Amazon fulfillment center.
-I was asking you if you thought I should eat the $4 buy selling retail $40 and then offering a $9 flat rate shipping cost to keep the price point at $49 total cost to the customer.
-I may not do Reddog....depends on his contracts come over.
-Yeah the bazaar is a table. 6' table and I just hang there and sell my game.
OLD might be better ... less shipping here and there!
Are you going to be shipping to CUSTOMERS directly from QM??? That sounds a lot like the "OLD" Amazon.com way. The *NEW* way is to ship your product to an Amazon.com warehouse (there are a bunch in the USA)...
Actually this might be a good idea. But insist that the game may only be sold in the USA. Otherwise using your $9 dollars flat rate, you're off by about $4... International orders would be all fncked up.
Maybe this is a GOOD "First Step". Get some sales first on Amazon.com, get some reviews too (Positive ones). Sell to US customers ONLY (and you already know the QM flat rate of $12.32)
Again take what you like and ignore whatever you dislike. However you want to arrive at $49 USD/unit is your business. But yeah, something like $49 USD/unit ALL-IN including shipping to the contiguous United States.
Talking about the Bazaar...
I remember ages ago when my Grandmother and I went to the Bazaar at the Polish Church. They had all kinds of Baked Goods... But I was hoping that they had some kind of TOY! Imagine YOU and all the kids that show up ...!
They'll be like: "Mommy can we buy it???" Price it at $40 USD/unit and OFFER a $5.00 discount to the Mom that's not 100% sure, but has SOME interest.
It would have been COOL to sell "TradeWorlds" at Bazaars too... But my Grandmother has sadly passed-away. So goes life. Anyway you'll give all the kids a huge PLUS in the TOY/GAME realm which most booths don't do.
Hope you sell a TON of games at that Bazaar!
questccg wrote:I remember
They'll be like: "Mommy can we buy it???" Price it at $40 USD/unit and OFFER a $5.00 discount to the Mom that's not 100% sure, but has SOME interest.
It would have been COOL to sell "TradeWorlds" at Bazaars too... But my Grandmother has sadly passed-away. So goes life. Anyway you'll give all the kids a huge PLUS in the TOY/GAME realm which most booths don't do.
Hope you sell a TON of games at that Bazaar!
I've asked the web designer to change the price to $40 USD with $35 pre order special until Thanksgiving. I will run a promotion for $9 flat rate shipping so customers will be $49 out the door. I'll let you know what happens with Reddog.
I can't wait to tell you all how the Bazaar goes. It should be fun.
I just wanted to add ...
Like @Jay103 said in the other thread, a certain amount of "satisfaction" can come from simply seeing the game go from IDEA to a physical version (in an advanced prototype — for example) and all the EFFORT put in to transform it.
I can firmly say this is HOW I feel about "TradeWorlds" (TW).
It went from some small "The Game Crafter" Early Access version of the game where each player needed their OWN box. A way to lower the cost to acquire the game... And I believe it was around $29.99 USD per unit. All this because a LARGER game would not be financially reasonable... Much like in your case @Evan.
Mike and Stan took the small game and BLEW it up... Into something more viable! When we saw the NEW box cover, we were AMAZED how it looked. One Family member said: "It actually looks like a GAME!" Meaning the Box looked so professional, it was a REAL GAME.
And for that I have to THANK "Outer Limit Games" (Mike and Stan). Enough said.
I fully understand your "satisfaction" with bringing to reality YOUR game.
Cheers!
Holiday Marketing
An ad for this just showed up in my FB feed: https://www.notmahjong.com/ timed for just before the Jewish holidays (my last name and the gaming groups must have sent the targeting algorithms screaming).
Someone else you may wish to reach out to about their experiences with ads, a game aimed more at a cultural (admittedly infinitely more narrow than your own) group identity than hardcore gamers.
Hmm... Not sure about that!?
I just wanted to ADD a comment about a sentence in the OP.
I may create a marketing campaign that goes something like this:
I think you should say something like this instead:
Something to make people THINK of Monopoly ... But not actually name the game because you would be using a competitor's Trademark. And believe me I'm POSITIVE they have a Registered Trademark for "Monopoly"!
Just another $0.05 ... (We got rid of the penny in Canada)
You're okay with using the
You're okay with using the Monopoly trademark to refer to the Monopoly game (that's called "nonimitative fair use"). You should definitely put the (R) symbol after it, and ideally have a little thing at the bottom that says "Monopoly is a trademark of Hasbro, used without permission" just to double-cover yourself (so it's clear you are not claiming to be the owner of the mark). I'm sure you can find examples of that disclaimer around elsewhere.
Also, don't capitalize "Love", and if you can put the game name in a different color or font or something to separate it from the rest of the sentence, that would be good..
Whales versus Superfans
In this Video, the professor explains what "Whales" are!
https://youtu.be/c5ByWGo5nTA?t=170
Give it 10 seconds or so... And he will talk about "Whales". But in general these are "Superfans" that are willing to PAY "10x" the normal amount spent by the average customer. Knowing that such people are "out-there" ... makes you go "Huh?!"
This channel is dedicated to all things "Magic: the Gathering" (Magic). And sometimes when I watch the show, I learn all kinds of things about what Magic is all about... And believe me at $449.00 + Shipping... That is a TON of money!
Anyway it's interesting to watch (and learn about "Whales") and how we should all be trying to ATTRACT as MANY "Whales" as possible. It's kinda funny... Only in the Magic world, I guess! I don't know what I would sell for $449.00!!! Maybe ALL the sets from "Monster Keep" (MK) with 500 different pieces of artwork! (Woah is that a thing???)
Just kidding! Cheers...
That's why people put in
That's why people put in $400/$1000/$5000 levels on Kickstarters.. You never know.
I had a number of people pledge to have their image on the box cover of Heroes & Treasure (and the expansion pack).
I also had someone step up and fund my expansion pack when it was about to fall $2k short of the goal. Quite the super-fan.
How was that supposed to work???
I know we didn't do that with "TradeWorlds" (TW) and I doubt that I will be doing something similar for "Monster Keep" (MK). In TW what we offered was a Bravado Pledge Level for $149 USD to have your likeness on one (1) of the ten (10) Premium Role Cards (Chancellor, Treasurer, Admiral, Captain, Commander, Engineer, Saboteur, Mechanic, Smuggler and Trader).
For MK, I'm sticking to three (3) Rewards depending on HOW much you want to spend. I'm not catering to any people with more disposable income. Just a "Collector's Edition", Duels and Multiplayer.
Hmm... I did not see any "images" on the box?! Only a bunch of characters that were in the "tavern". Those would be too small to use actual people, no?
Yeah I remember. You got less Backers than the original KS. Maybe you had the 2nd KS too "Early"?! Like (supposition) maybe focusing on getting the "core" game into more people's hands than coming out with an Expansion... IDK. I'm just thinking on the need to push H&T into more people's hands especially families.
But yeah some lucky benefactor is cool too.
Cheers!
questccg wrote: Hmm... I did
Hmm... I did not see any "images" on the box?! Only a bunch of characters that were in the "tavern". Those would be too small to use actual people, no?
Not too small :) At 300 dpi you can see quite a lot of detail. The original box had 6 backers on it (including the 4 kids sitting at the table on the right side), plus two supporters I asked my artist to add for me. The expansion has 3 backers on it.
Wow ... I didn't know that!
I didn't realize that all the characters (in the background) were from Backers! I just figured they were characters than your artist drew...
We actually did Facials where the person is recognizable, here's a sample of an 8 year old girl that the Father wanted to know what she "may" look like when she grows up:
OLG only asked for $149.00 USD for the Bravado Pledge Level... I wanted it to be $249.00 ... But they said that was asking for too much money! I swear these guys really didn't want to make ANY money with this game.
Clearly off topic but hey ..
OLG only asked for $149.00 USD for the Bravado Pledge Level... I wanted it to be $249.00 ... But they said that was asking for too much money! I swear these guys really didn't want to make ANY money with this game.
I asked $249 for the pledge level in my game to have your likeness added (limited to 3 people) and all 3 went VERY fast. As a first time, indie creator/publisher I would have thought that was asking too much but apparently not.
Awesome Video
Quest, that video was very interesting. I never thought of that myself.
I am back oversea's on a ship, so I will do my best to keep up on this thread.
-My web designer is doing an awesome job with what I've given her so far, and my first game has been sold to my Wife's aunt!! YAHTZEE
-My wife just got the Sample from China. Waiting on Gallery pictures for website.
-Still setting up the shop, and working out the details. I wish I would have known that QuarterMaster works well with Shopify and not Wix. I ended up going with wix......anyway that's a long story.
-Set up with Square to sell at the bazaar, but web designer is setting up "Pick up" shipping so I can have people just order on the website, and hand them a game!! Hopefully that will eliminate too many fee's from square.
-I'm grateful for the Price point you all helped me to work out. $35 pre-order plus $9 flat rate shipping up until Thanksgiving.
-Post Thanksgiving $40 + $12 flat rate shipping USA only.
-Social Media stuff coming along.
-Shipping is on schedule and I'm all set up with Quarter Master.
-I'll get the final Landed cost out when I pay for shipping, and delivery to QM!!!
-Eventually I'm going to sell Fine wood boards, and hemp printed cards!!! A true Generational Game for the Whales!!!
Wow James thanks for that "nugget of wisdom"!
From what I can tell is that OLG set more "realistic" pricing for MSRP. The "core" which sold for $29 USD is priced at $45 USD with no KS extras. The "Expansion" collection featuring three (3) separate expansions would also be priced at $45 USD. This prices the game at a REASONABLE cost of $90 USD for the "Tactician" pledge which sold for $49 USD. That's a BIG DEAL to KS members. A 50% discount!!! And no miniatures included (that's a ordeal for a future iteration...)
But right now I'm not thinking about the retail strategy... Since I can't afford to make so many copies of the game. I have other projects to launch first and maybe have another TradeWorlds (TW) KS for a sort of mini-expansion. So we'll see.
I see it as a BUILD on-top of what I've got... And hope the Fans, Super-Fans and Whales give me a chance! I think it's a LONG term strategy in my particular case.
And don't worry about being OFF-TOPIC... Clearly @Evan enjoys talking about Fans, Super-Fans and now... Whales.
Cheers all!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Yeah Tolarian College is one cool dude. Every time I watch a "video", I learn so much about "Magic: the Gathering" (Magic) ... Always new stuff. Like I don't watch ALL his video, one here-and-there sort of watching. The professor is a cool dude and as I said when I watch these videos I learn more about Magic culture like Draft, Sealed, Premium Products, All the various sets (Ravnica, Legends, Mirrodin, etc.) There are SO MANY "expansions" to "core" products which come out like every year!
Magic really has their own "culture". It's so EPIC in depth...
Go for LEGACY!!!
Yeah make it LEGACY also... This way you can roll the cards and SMOKE them! (LOL) Talk about REAL LEGACY!!! Fnck "Charterstone" ... when you can have a doobies in such a premium product... Whales would LOVE IT!!! The tough part?
Figuring out which cards to KEEP and which ones to SMOKE! (LMAO)
hahahahahahahahah
hahahahahahahahah
Woody Harrelson would approve!
You could even get Mr. Harrelson to promote the game. The dude was promoting using hemp to make clothing and other products... No doubt a LEGACY game designed by @Evan would amount to a generational accomplishment! Get the whole family to the table... Just kidding. Cheers @Evan.
Fix your "testimonials"!!!
Just wanted to say that the "testimonials" SCROLL MUCH TOO FAST!!! You need to SLOW the speed to at least 10 seconds. It's like 2 seconds and BAM, next one... You don't even get the chance to READ most of them... And some of them have more that one line!
Ask your Web Designer to FIX this issue... It's REALLY annoying to TRY to read them and they are IMPORTANT because people want to HEAR what other people are saying ... even if these are your own family or friends... It doesn't matter. What does matter is being able TO READ them!
KS, Pricing, MSRP and Perceived Value.
Unfortunately, it's become a reality that the price you set on Kickstarter IS the Retail Price because that is the perceived value that you have set.
As retailers will tell you, a customer will walk into their store, see a cool game, look it up online and see that while it's $45 in store it sold for $29 on Kickstarter. Once they see this, they accuse the store of ripping them off and the store does not get the sale.
A number of (obviously not all) retailers will also look up a game if it was a Kickstarter project and know that this phenomenon happens, so if they aren't getting their margins based on the perceived SRP, they are more likely to pass.
$29 on Kickstarter = $29 MSRP in the general public's mind (perceived value).
You bring value to your backers by providing added or upgraded/limited edition items (that are then sold separately in retail), early access (will not sell at retail before all backers are shipped copies), exclusives, etc.
ANy further from Reddog?
Hey Evansmind, anything further from that Reddog thing? We don't want to see you lose on this!
questccg wrote:evansmind244
Just wanted to say that the "testimonials" SCROLL MUCH TOO FAST!!! You need to SLOW the speed to at least 10 seconds. It's like 2 seconds and BAM, next one... You don't even get the chance to READ most of them... And some of them have more that one line!
Ask your Web Designer to FIX this issue... It's REALLY annoying to TRY to read them and they are IMPORTANT because people want to HEAR what other people are saying ... even if these are your own family or friends... It doesn't matter. What does matter is being able TO READ them!
I have told her to fix that.
I Will Never Grow Up Gaming
After listening to everyone thoughts, I decided I would not go with Reddog. Perhaps we will find someone next year, but like Jay said, I can probably figure it out myself and next year I'll have the whole year to work on it. Of course I may not have any games left. Just sold 4 more to my little SISTER!!!! hahahahaha she's a good sister.
How do you all think the website is turning out? www.holidayfevergame.com
I Will Never Grow Up Gaming
Unfortunately, it's become a reality that the price you set on Kickstarter IS the Retail Price because that is the perceived value that you have set.
As retailers will tell you, a customer will walk into their store, see a cool game, look it up online and see that while it's $45 in store it sold for $29 on Kickstarter. Once they see this, they accuse the store of ripping them off and the store does not get the sale.
A number of (obviously not all) retailers will also look up a game if it was a Kickstarter project and know that this phenomenon happens, so if they aren't getting their margins based on the perceived SRP, they are more likely to pass.
$29 on Kickstarter = $29 MSRP in the general public's mind (perceived value).
You bring value to your backers by providing added or upgraded/limited edition items (that are then sold separately in retail), early access (will not sell at retail before all backers are shipped copies), exclusives, etc.
I have the exact opposite problem right now.. I want to drop the retail price, but I'm feeling constrained by the Kickstarter price (not wanting to undercut my backers)
evansmind244 wrote:I Will
After listening to everyone thoughts, I decided I would not go with Reddog. Perhaps we will find someone next year, but like Jay said, I can probably figure it out myself and next year I'll have the whole year to work on it. Of course I may not have any games left. Just sold 4 more to my little SISTER!!!! hahahahaha she's a good sister.
How do you all think the website is turning out? www.holidayfevergame.com
I like the website. The photo of the actual board is a plus for a pre-order game, because it makes it look like a real thing, not a mockup.
Jay
What about sending all your KS fans a discount coupon for either of your games with a fair explanation as to why you would like to lower retail, and why it cost them more on KS? Perhaps the transparency and effort to inform your fans may gain you even greater support...plus you could use this as an opportunity to market for Christmas and get fan's to use their coupon to purchase a Gift for family or friends, or perhaps you could make the coupon transferable to the family and friends of your fans. Just a thought.
From someone who's blown first impressions...
Website. Great clean look. If you ever need a reminder of your progress, compare it to your earlier game graphics.
Families:
have, not has
love, not loves
Just noticed the second dog. Awesome.
Pax.
Mosker wrote:Website. Great
Families:
have, not has
love, not loves
Just noticed the second dog. Awesome.
Pax.
Thanks Mosker for always helping me along the way. K, I'm getting on a ship in Dakar Senegal. Hopefully I have internet. Wish me luck!!
2nd Dog
Oh and that 2nd dog was Josie which my wife wanted to keep, but we ended up keeping her brother Tank. So sweet Josie went to some friends of ours. Faye (the momma) had 7 puppies and all but 1 went to close friends of ours. Our neighborhood is now the safest in Idaho!!!!! hahahahah
-Note: We had to keep a male, because the mom would fight with a female too much, and Mom is already got an oversized Heart!!
Jay103 wrote:I Will Never
Unfortunately, it's become a reality that the price you set on Kickstarter IS the Retail Price because that is the perceived value that you have set.
As retailers will tell you, a customer will walk into their store, see a cool game, look it up online and see that while it's $45 in store it sold for $29 on Kickstarter. Once they see this, they accuse the store of ripping them off and the store does not get the sale.
A number of (obviously not all) retailers will also look up a game if it was a Kickstarter project and know that this phenomenon happens, so if they aren't getting their margins based on the perceived SRP, they are more likely to pass.
$29 on Kickstarter = $29 MSRP in the general public's mind (perceived value).
You bring value to your backers by providing added or upgraded/limited edition items (that are then sold separately in retail), early access (will not sell at retail before all backers are shipped copies), exclusives, etc.
I have the exact opposite problem right now.. I want to drop the retail price, but I'm feeling constrained by the Kickstarter price (not wanting to undercut my backers)
That's a tough one. As the publisher you should always stick to your retail price. Retailers can (and frequently do) sell for any amount (usually less than MSRP).
The problem when you as a publisher drop your price is it looks like you're clearing them out and that's typically a bad sign/poor optics.
Assuming you're selling in retail of course. If you're the ONLY one selling, then you can just reduce the price (but I wouldn't reduce it much) as a 'limited time special' (even if that limited time is undefined).
Undercutting backers is always an issue. YOu want to maintain that goodwill, so reducing your price below what they paid (for the same content) is a really tough call unless you truly are liquidating stock.
MSRP vs. KS pricing
From what I know(?) is that @jay103 has 500+ units of unsold games that were manufactured. So I don't think he is "liquidating" just yet... More like looking for customers that shop at "Walmart" (price conscious)! You can offer a seasonal discount (Halloween, Christmas, etc.) maybe lower the price by $5.00. But I wouldn't get too radical with the pricing.
And I disagree with the idea that $29 on KS = $29 MSRP. We all know that MSRP = 5x cost. So this is a wrong way of thinking. Secondly KS is about GETTING THE GAME FIRST. And if we offer better pricing and more content, it's to get us to the "Finish Line"! What I mean is that our Backers make the game possible... Without them, there would be NO GAME. Secondly there are NO INTERMEDIARIES. It's Direct-to-Consumer. So of course you can lower the KS price.
But NOT the MSRP. That's my perspective.
questccg wrote: And I
And I disagree with the idea that $29 on KS = $29 MSRP. We all know that MSRP = 5x cost. So this is a wrong way of thinking. Secondly KS is about GETTING THE GAME FIRST. And if we offer better pricing and more content, it's to get us to the "Finish Line"! What I mean is that our Backers make the game possible... Without them, there would be NO GAME. Secondly there are NO INTERMEDIARIES. It's Direct-to-Consumer. So of course you can lower the KS price.
But NOT the MSRP. That's my perspective.
Agree or disagree, the concept that your KS price is your MSRP is direct from consumers and retailers. It's all about consumer perception and perceived value.
If someone can find your game was available (regardless of the platform it was available on) for $29, and a store is trying to sell it for $45, that person is far more likely to pass on buying from that store that is "just trying to rip us off" because they have the perceived value of $29.
Like it or not, it has become the reality. This is how consumers think and with the availability of a quick look up in everyone's pocket on their cell phone and google it hurts retailers to try to sell for so much more than what the exact same thing was listed at on another platform (again, regardless of what that platform was).
If your SRP is $45 (we all know SRP is 5-7x landed cost), run the Kickstarter at $45 but provide added content above retail (mini expansion, upgraded components, etc) OR run the Kickstarter at maybe a short discount to $40 at most.
In my case, I have, for
In my case, I have, for example, some backers who paid for original game plus expansion. They haven't received either yet, since they'll ship together. However, if I drop the price right now, they'll have overpaid for something they don't have yet.
I'm considering shipping them separately and just sending the original right away, even though that wasn't part of the deal.
Be careful not to upset KS Backers
Don't change the price... Leave it AS-IS until you have completed all your KS activities concerning the game and expansion. Then when you go on AMAZON which I seriously suggest you should do (as everyone is selling on amazon), then you can offer a slight discount... Because it's Amazon and the pricing is usually better than elsewhere ... It's easy to explain and understand.
You can do like @Evan and NOT use FBA ... And since you are using QM, you can direct-ship the game to people in the USA (using a flat shipping rate).
Again because it's on AMAZON, people looking for deals and all your other Backers should understand that this is a discount to HELP sell the game. Remember KS Backers "Get it FIRST"... If anyone asks that's what you say: they as KS Backers got the game first. It's been months/years since the original campaign and Amazon pricing is just a bit less expensive to help move product.
This is just advice, you don't need to heed it. I'm just trying to help you explain to your KS Backers the price difference. And usually Amazon is less expensive than everywhere else. PLUS they have "everything"!
You've got to be kidding me!
Yes and you are forgetting the meaning of "perceived value". If it's $29 KS and it costs you $15 to make, you're making $14! If it's $45 RETAIL and you lose 50% markup, it's $22.50 minus $15 to make, you're making $7.50! So you've UPPED the price and you're still making LESS than the KS because it was DIRECT-TO-CONSUMER.
Pricing is not about "just trying to rip us off"! I already EXPLAINED how on a KS with a LOWER price point makes MORE MONEY than a Retail Store selling the SAME (or similar) game.
I don't get where you get this bullsh!t from. Regardless of the "platform"... MSRP = 5x COST! PERIOD. If it costs $15 to MAKE the game, MSRP = $75! That's THE REALITY. I don't give a cr@p what you sold it on KS because that's LALA-LAND. Direct-to-consumer with no intermediaries. Sure you can offer the product at a lower price point... (I've already explained that).
But here's the deal AT $75: $37.50 (50%) minus $15 cost = $22.50. At least NOW you are "making" some money. Look, we're not GREEDY a-holes. We just want to be able to make some money for our "companies", our "partners", our "publisher" and bottom line "ourselves" too. It's not wrong to be a CAPITALIST?!?!
So maybe in your neck-of-the-woods you can make a little more. The REAL question to be concerned with IS: WHY THE FNCK IS IT COSTING $15 TO MAKE LANDED COST??? It's way too high... That's where the negotiations need to start. You can't make something so expensive... The CEILING should be $10. And Chinese manufacturers are quoting $12 to $13 (too pricey). They are the ones pushing it. And you know WHY? Because they know on KS you do Direct-To-Consumer... That's WHY you offer a lower price point... To make everyone FEEL BETTER.
I agree. Now you are making some sense. But for those of us that were FOOLED into believing a "lower" KS price point was the way to go... There are consequences. And not being able to "recover" from a DISASTER (when it comes to pricing too LOW) has to be possible. Original KS Backers FUNDED the "Dream". Maybe that makes them entitled to a lower price point and some extras. The reality is there's NO "perceived value" if you're selling via a STORE. It's all about the 5x multiplier... So if you paid $29 on a KS and now a FLGS needs to sell it for $75... You have a REAL PROBLEM. And that means leaner, tighter pricing when it come to MAKING the game. It ALL STARTS there. That to me is the "bottom line".
Also ...
You forget that there are OTHER "Expenses" such as Art, Videos, Templates, Reviewers, Blind Playtest Groups, etc. If ALL that gets computed into the final COST to determine PROFIT. MY guess is that you will be lucky to make $1,500 USD in the end! Feel like splitting that amount among your partners?! Is there anything to celebrate...? Even if it's ALL yours... Woopie! $1,500 USD... Years of work and you barely can afford a months worth of expenses (including your mortgage).
How does this help all of US???
questccg wrote:I Will Never
Yes and you are forgetting the meaning of "perceived value". If it's $29 KS and it costs you $15 to make, you're making $14! If it's $45 RETAIL and you lose 50% markup, it's $22.50 minus $15 to make, you're making $7.50! So you've UPPED the price and you're still making LESS than the KS because it was DIRECT-TO-CONSUMER.
Profit margins have zero to do with perceived value to the consumer (which is where the value is being determined in the case of price point).
The consumer does not care what your profits are or how you got to your pricing. If it initially sold for $29, it's a $29 value.
Pricing is not about "just trying to rip us off"! I already EXPLAINED how on a KS with a LOWER price point makes MORE MONEY than a Retail Store selling the SAME (or similar) game.
I feel we're talking about two separate things here. I'm talking about consumer perception, not publisher/designer pricing and profit margins.
I don't get where you get this bullsh!t from. Regardless of the "platform"... MSRP = 5x COST! PERIOD. If it costs $15 to MAKE the game, MSRP = $75! That's THE REALITY. I don't give a cr@p what you sold it on KS because that's LALA-LAND. Direct-to-consumer with no intermediaries. Sure you can offer the product at a lower price point... (I've already explained that).
But here's the deal AT $75: $37.50 (50%) minus $15 cost = $22.50. At least NOW you are "making" some money. Look, we're not GREEDY a-holes. We just want to be able to make some money for our "companies", our "partners", our "publisher" and bottom line "ourselves" too. It's not wrong to be a CAPITALIST?!?!
So maybe in your neck-of-the-woods you can make a little more. The REAL question to be concerned with IS: WHY THE FNCK IS IT COSTING $15 TO MAKE LANDED COST??? It's way too high... That's where the negotiations need to start. You can't make something so expensive... The CEILING should be $10. And Chinese manufacturers are quoting $12 to $13 (too pricey). They are the ones pushing it. And you know WHY? Because they know on KS you do Direct-To-Consumer... That's WHY you offer a lower price point... To make everyone FEEL BETTER.
If your SRP is $45 (we all know SRP is 5-7x landed cost), run the Kickstarter at $45 but provide added content above retail (mini expansion, upgraded components, etc) OR run the Kickstarter at maybe a short discount to $40 at most.
I agree. Now you are making some sense. But for those of us that were FOOLED into believing a "lower" KS price point was the way to go... There are consequences. And not being able to "recover" from a DISASTER (when it comes to pricing too LOW) has to be possible. Original KS Backers FUNDED the "Dream". Maybe that makes them entitled to a lower price point and some extras. The reality is there's NO "perceived value" if you're selling via a STORE. It's all about the 5x multiplier... So if you paid $29 on a KS and now a FLGS needs to sell it for $75... You have a REAL PROBLEM. And that means leaner, tighter pricing when it come to MAKING the game. It ALL STARTS there. That to me is the "bottom line".
Wow... just .. wow.
I've said nothing about capitalism, nothing about profit margins and nothing about manufacturing quotes. I've merely let you in on something that is not at all a secret about consumer perception and you've gone somewhere else completely with it.
As a retailer, I will not buy your $45 game at $22.50 when it sold on Kickstarter for $29. Why? Because I can't make a profit off it at $29, which is exactly what people are going to expect it to sell for no matter how much you want to tell them about Kickstarter deals and MSRP and good feels.
This is information directly from retailers. Take it or leave it but the attitude isn't necessary.
I'm done.
I understand what you mean... but
As a retailer, I will not buy your $45 game at $22.50 when it sold on Kickstarter for $29. Why? Because I can't make a profit off it at $29, which is exactly what people are going to expect it to sell for no matter how much you want to tell them about Kickstarter deals and MSRP and good feels.
This is information directly from retailers. Take it or leave it but the attitude isn't necessary...
Here's a retail example about "perceived value" (IMHO):
https://www.masteroftheboards.com/products/tradeworlds-exterra-edition-k...
The guy is charging $30 USD more than the KS bundle price. I found no mention of him in our "orders" database... But I like him. He's saying the "perceived value" of a game that features THREE (3) Expansions:
+ Role Compendium
+ Planetary Expansion
+ Adversity AI (Solo play)
PLUS Miniatures (20 of them) is selling the (premium) game for $79.95 USD!
That's what I understood about "perceived value". As per the definition that I know is: "It is the top dollar amount that a customer is willing to pay for a product." Basically what HE/SHE prices the game to be. Now while I get what you are saying that people who see a game use their phones to Google a game and see the KS price point ... but sometimes there is inherent value in games that were "undersold".
That's clearly a problem with "TradeWorlds". We priced everything too low. And now we're breaking even in terms of the profitability. That's why Stan is negotiating with the manufacturers. But we were trying to "Fund a Dream" ... and the experience was amazing. Okay the last 6 months has been a bit rough with the delays in the deadline... But prior to this the effort and backer response was fantastic.
I think the market will re-align soon enough. I mean, Hey, if a guy can PRE-ORDER it for $79.95 and get customers... Clearly people are willing to pay a little more for a game that hasn't out-lived it's printing.
(Personal apology to @James... I was a bit critical. But his and my understanding of "perceived value" are very different. He's merely talking from his own experience and what I have learned is a bit different. I've explained it in this message ... Not to offend anyone.)
Second Reviewer
Lady's and gents, I just got a review in fresh off the press!!! Please check it out.
https://justsimplereviews.wordpress.com/2019/10/21/holiday-fever-game-re...
I was scared Just Simple Reviews hated my game since its been over a month since I sent him a TGC copy, and well I guess I was wrong. This review has given me a lot of hope and relief from the stress of putting my idea out there. Again, I want to thank each of you who have helped me out over the years. My game definitely wouldn't have gotten a review like this if it wasn't for all the feedback and blunt honesty from the BGDF!!!
Unfortunately I didn't get a whole lot of people to guess how many games I would sell this year, but I'll give an update here so if anyone ends up chiming in over on the Free $100 Amazon Gift card thread they won't have an unfair advantage. We've sold 47 + an order of 12 from my local grocery store just not paid yet. That would be 59 games and I still haven't done any paid marketing, which we will begin right after halloween. The grocery store sells local products, from local artist etc... They've had a kids book in the store for the past few months which has sold 80 copies so far. I must say I've got High hopes. The grocery store is a Chain with 10 stores. Could be a possibility next year.
-I'll have my game published on BGG soon hopefully, and Just Simple Reviews said he would love to help me get the word out!!! So far so good. Thanks again BGDF.
Quote:That would be 59 games
I win!
Um ... you need to wait until the end of the 1st week of January
I win!
How can you possibly WIN if the contest is still on-going! There's November, December and one (1) week in January left. I don't know what gives you the impression that you won... And I find that maybe if this is the continued trend, Evan will be the winner with a prediction of 234 games.
Austin is capped at 100, me at 86 and you at 60. If he sells 2 more games, you lose @Jason... Grossly underestimated how many sales he is getting for 2019. The real winner will be @Evan TBH!!!