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US "Hippodice" contest

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Thu, 09/09/2004 - 14:04
jwarrend
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Moving this discussion over to a new thread, hope that's ok.

One possible locale you might explore for such an event is the Boston area. There's an extensive and well-coordinated network of local game groups. The group has a yahoo! group (unity_games) as well as hosting a semiannual games day event (www.unitygames.org) that gets about 150 people out. Most importantly, Boston is the home of Alan Moon, the SAZ chairman. Mr. Moon has said that he'd like to increase the usefulness of the SAZ to the US, and that he'd like to see the organization help up and coming designers.

You'd still have to work out the logistics of who was going to oversee the competition: us, who came up with the idea, BGG, which brobably has the highest visibility, or SAZ?

I would recommend having Matthew talk to Mr. Moon about the idea to see what level of interest he might have in getting involved at some level. My guess is that he won't want to spearhead the whole thing, but perhaps he'll be willing to help at some level.

A final observation is that finding a group willing to spend 3 months of every year playtesting games could be a challenge, and a different model from Hippodice may be needed. One possible idea, were we able to get a link with SAZ, would be to have the contest be free for SAZ members, which might also help them get their membership up, which they would like. Having a slightly higher cost to enter, or a more brutal "cut" (maybe only the top 25 games make it, rather than the top 50), or spreading the judging over several groups in some way (with perhaps a couple of "control" games used to calibrate the different groups' scales) might make it easier.

Getting the "jury" may be tougher in the US since there are fewer companies, but between Uberplay, Days of Wonder, Rio Grande, Avalon Hill, Mayfair, and Out of the Box, etc., probably a good panel could be assembled, if the companies would be willing to participate.

So, I agree -- start big! If for no other reason than that as we saw last year, starting small doesn't necessarily make things work better! Go for it!

-Jeff

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Fri, 11/19/2004 - 02:30
#1
FastLearner
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US "Hippodice" contest

I've chatted with Alan about it now, and he had several interesting things to say. I'll email you about it shortly, Jeff.

-- Matthew

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Mon, 12/13/2004 - 20:59
#2
phpbbadmin
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...

Snoop wrote:

There is some talk about this being the location of the North American SAZ (game designer union) annual meeting. Also, there's some buzz that we'll be sponsoring a Hippodice-like event there. More info as it becomes available

This is from the Pow Wow 2005 news item. Is this the same design contest that we are trying to start? Anyone know?

-Darke

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Tue, 12/14/2004 - 13:57
#3
jwarrend
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US "Hippodice" contest

Yes, it is. Matthew is in consultation with some publishers and is trying to choose an event where the final judging could happen. PowWow and the Gathering seemed like candidates, with the Gathering appearing to be the more likely destination. Since that's in April, presumably this contest will debut in late 2005, with judging happening in 2006. Getting a contest together by April won't be feasible this time around.

-J

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Tue, 12/14/2004 - 13:59
#4
phpbbadmin
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US "Hippodice" contest

Excellent.. Thanks for the heads up..

-Michael

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Tue, 12/14/2004 - 17:45
#5
FastLearner
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US "Hippodice" contest

Snoop kinda jumped on that inappropriately, and apologized for it in email. I had chatted with Alan about the competition and, among other things he suggested that PowWow might be a good place to have the judging.

Then apparently he suggested it to Snoop, who thought it was my idea, and suddenly it's in the announcement. :)

Anyway, I don't think PowWow is the right place unless some publishers suddenly decide to start coming (I'm emailing them to ask about that possibility). I still suspect the Gathering will be a better place for it, though due to politics Mayfair will never be at the Gathering, and currently no one from Fantasy Flight attends (though Alan knows and likes Chris Petersen there, and he didn't seem opposed to inviting Chris). Still, that would mean no Mayfair.

The big plus of the Gathering is that the thing lasts like 10 days, so asking a publisher to spend something like two half-days judging isn't asking all that much, while PowWow is only 3 days, so much of their time would be spent on the contest. On the other hand, that's primarily why they'd be there, so... well, anyway. :)

-- Matthew

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Wed, 12/15/2004 - 08:54
#6
jwarrend
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US "Hippodice" contest

One important question is whether Mayfair would participate if judging wasn’t at the Gathering. If so, then I think we need to at least consider an alternative judging venue. Mayfair is one of the 2 or 3 biggest names in the industry, and their participation would add a lot of legitimacy. I think it would be unreasonable to dismiss them outright simply because of some political issue between them and Alan Moon.

This next remark is off the record, please. Personally, I don’t really like the Gathering from a philosohpical standpoint. My complaint is primarily due to the invitation-only nature of the event. I don’t begrudge Alan Moon the right to get together with his friends. But what I don’t like is that the Gathering has become the “it” event for game designers to show their prototypes to publishers. I think it’s a hard enough industry to get into, and now, to really have a chance, you get a huge advantage if you’re a personal friend of Alan Moon. I don’t like it. I don’t think any one person should wield that much “power” in the industry. I know he’s not being malicious, and indeed, in a way it’s positive -- a lot of up-and-comers get direct access to publishers. That’s great, but because it’s exclusive, a whole lot of other up-and-comers don’t have that chance, making it even harder to get access.

So to me, to pile further creedence onto the Gathering is something I only want to do if it’s the only possible place that we could get a quorum of judges together to play and judge the games. I understand that the nature of the event has its merits for such an activity, and I don’t dispute that at all. There’s also the timing issue; if games are to enter final judging in April, the initial submission will be due in November or so, right around when Hippodice judging begins. That means many (most?) people will submit to both contests. I think that’s unnecessary and undesirable. Not sure if the same thing wouldn’t happen if our entries were due in, say, June or July.

Just my thoughts on the subject. BTW, Matthew, the journals look great! I may pick one up at some point...

-Jeff

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Wed, 12/15/2004 - 10:54
#7
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My thoughts....

On the gathering... I don't think it's so much as a the 'it' thing for game designers as it is for game players. Perhaps my understanding is wrong, but from all the people I've known to go to the gathering (which is only a handful, including Matthew and a guy from my local gaming group) this is the case. Am I wrong in this assessment? I thought it was a place to go and get an inside PREVIEW of games that will be coming out and to play them with friends. I agree that the exclusivity of the event is somewhat annoying and tends to promote an air of snobiness (not aimed at you Matthew or my local friend) within the gaming hobby, but I guess Alan will invite whom he sees fit. To me it just seems more of a rite of passage among die hard gamers more than anything else. The fact that some of these players just happen to be designers is just gravy for the event, and not it's intended purpose. Matthew, is this assessment correct?

Now as far as using this event to judge the possible Sackson awards (heheh I'm gonna run with that name until it sticks), I have no problem with it. The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter whether game designers get invited to the invite or not. If anything, I think it's best that they AREN'T attending the same event where their game might be judged. If it is a convenient place and time (which is debateable which you pointed out Jeff) for industry insiders to judge the games, I think it's great. If Mayfair doesn't have a representation, well that's unfortunate. That doesn't, however, preclude them from possibly publishing any of the entries of the contest. I think we need to take baby steps at this point and take what we can get. It's unfortunate that politics are involved in something as 'innocent' as the gaming industry, but let's face it, We don't live in a bubble. I can forsee problems of hurt feelings just about any way this contest unfolds, so again we have to take what we can get, and hope that it will evolve into something bigger and better over time.

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Wed, 12/15/2004 - 14:07
#8
FastLearner
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US "Hippodice" contest

I understand your frustration, Jeff, certainly. Personally I don't think that having the juding held there will lend it any more prestige or credence than it already has.

Here's the trick, right? We're asking very busy people to take time out to judge games that (a) could completely suck, and (b) they may have no interest in whatsoever. While it's true that the pre-judging process should narrow the games down to the best ones, in a normal setting these publishers can look at a description and say, "Nope, not worth wasting my time over." Not so, here.

As such, I think we absolutely have to have it at a venue where the publishers are already taking time from their jobs. While it's true that it would suck to not have Mayfair, it's not like they're even publishing new releases: they're almost exclusively doing reprints of German games. In addition -- and yes, this is entirely personal opinion -- I don't think Mayfair is necessarily even that good for designers. I spent about 30 minutes talking to one of the two main Mayfair guys at the GAMA Trade Show last year, and here's a summary of what he said to me: "Designers are all a bunch whiney babies, and don't understand that it can easily take two years for us to even respond to them about their friggin' submissions, much less make a decision. Why are they in such a friggin' hurry?" Seriously.

That said, I'm most interested in American publishers of new games. I believe that I can get judges from Uberplay, Days of Wonder, Face2Face, R&R, Rio Grande Games (Jay is now publishing new stuff), possibly Fantasy Flight, and one or two more American publishers (including Mattel, strangely enough). I believe that I can also get -- if we want them -- judges from Alea (Stefan), Ravensburger, Hans Im Gluck, and three or four more German companies. All of this at the Gathering.

I know it sucks that it's invite-only (though the experience would suck a TON more if it wasn't, and there's no way you'd see all those publishers), and yes, it's quite possible that some of the entrants will be there as well. But at this point I don't think there's a better option. Maybe once the contest takes off and gains some prestige, maybe then we could convince publishers to show up somewhere else (I've not received any response at all about PowWow, and am not holding my breath). Until then, though, I honestly don't see a better choice.

Alan does work very hard to help unpublished authors meet publishers, and he also works hard to help grow the American boardgaming business (the latter of which is in his best interest, of course, but it's definitely not all about him). Frankly, I'm quite pleased that Alan is willing to have the judging be held at the Gathering.

-- Matthew

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Thu, 02/24/2005 - 23:16
#9
sedjtroll
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US "Hippodice" contest

What ever happened to this idea? Is it still in the works?

- Seth

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Thu, 02/24/2005 - 23:37
#10
phpbbadmin
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US "Hippodice" contest

sedjtroll wrote:
What ever happened to this idea? Is it still in the works?

- Seth

Who knows. All attempts to contact FL have come up empty.

-M

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