It seems that certain areas of interest (fantasy dungeon crawls, detective, IQ brain twisting, performance etc.) get filled up with games to the point it must be difficult to stick out if your new. Should a game design that is good be passed up by game developers (like us) for markets less developed. And, do you think a market can ever be truely filled.
Saturated Topics, do they exist?
It seems that certain areas of interest (fantasy dungeon crawls, detective, IQ brain twisting, performance etc.) get filled up with games to the point it must be difficult to stick out if your new. Should a game design that is good be passed up by game developers (like us) for markets less developed. And, do you think a market can ever be truely filled.
A friend of mine recently directed me to this article:
http://lostgarden.com/2005/09/nintendos-genre-innovation-strategy.html
Granted, this discussion concerns video games, but it deals with genre saturation and its remarks are no less applicable to tabletop games.
In light of this article, I tend to think that there is no such thing as complete genre saturation, but there is definitely a point at which market interest declines because of a glut of popular titles. When that happens, your design better be frickin' good if you want to get it published.
Or you can strike out and make something completely new and hope to snatch up early profits before Hasbro moves in and fills the niche...
K.
Incidentally (and off topic), if you enjoyed that article, the same author write this http://lostgarden.com/2005/09/game-design-review-advance-wars-dual.html. Again, this discusses a video game, but does so in a way that's equally applicable to tabletop design.
I think game authorship in a genre' is like novel authorship in some ways. There are many, many books of most genre', but you may enjoy the way a particular author portrays it, and have some authors you really avoid. I don't think you have to worry about oversaturating a particular genre' if you have a good game. On the other hand, coming up with some really unusual genre' may put a lot of people off. There are probably good reasons some genre' have been neglected/avoided.
Then there are those games that try to unite different genre. An example of this would be the Trivial Persuit Lord of the Rings. This joins those interested in dungeon crawls and fantasy with those that enjoy competing in mental trivia (who may have seen the movies but are not obsessed by fantasy based games).
I'm not sure if that is uniting two different genres. Rather, it's finding a niche within a niche, making the potential customer base smaller instead of larger. People who aren't interested in LotR won't buy it or play it, even though they might be interested in trivia games, and vice versa. It will only appeal to people who are interested in both trivia games and the LotR theme.
Then that poses a question, what is more important: the quick hit popular genre at the time or designing the next classic game like chess?
I don't think you can say that one is generally more important than the other. What do you find more important?
Personally, I would like to create a game that is a huge commercial succes and a game (not necessarily the same one) that stands the test of time. I think the latter will be more difficult achieve, though.
The problem with saturated topics is would the people that likes this kind of game category will buy the game.
If I make a new dungeon crawler, or a MTG like game , does the dungeon crawler fans or the CCG fans would like to buy it or the fans themselves will get bored and ignore the game.
There is also the rotation of topics to be considered. A saturated topic for now can become more popular in 10 or 20 years from now.
I seriously doubt anothe classic along the lines of chess will ever be develope. Not because chess is so good, mind you -- I rather think it's crap -- but because I believe that chess became a classic due to the lack of variety of good games to play. When there's only one game with any real depth in a society, over time it becomes a classic.
Due to mass consumerism and mass communication today, along with shortened attention spans, I don't see how anything will ever be able to approach the success of chess, no matter how "good" it is.
-- Matthew
Personally, I would like to create a game that is a huge commercial succes and a game (not necessarily the same one) that stands the test of time. I think the latter will be more difficult achieve, though.
I think that depends on what segment of the market you're talking about; I think that sticking to the European market, there are certainly more enduring games than there are breakout hits. There are only 3 breakout hits (Settlers, Carcassonne, and Ticket to Ride), but many games that are proven greats. I think you're way more likely to achieve the latter than the former.
If you're zooming out to the scale of the mass market, I think that's equally unlikely; the best sellers there are household names, or, in the case of Cranium, have a retailer aggressively pushing them. (Trivial Pursuit is probably an exception to this analysis).
I think that designing a game with an eye towards huge sales could be a frustrating endeavor; I think even if you design a game that could sell well, there's no way of knowing whether it actually will; it seems kind of intangible. Nothing wrong with trying, though!
To address the original question of saturated genres, my personal answer is that I tend to dive in to saturated thematic areas head-first, but I recognize that (a) I'm going to have to do something truly different if I want this to stand out and (b) even then, it probably will be very difficult to get it published. But if you keep these in mind, why not? There's a reason why saturated genres are saturated: people like playing games about pirates, the stock market, etc. But ultimately, you should make games about subjects that interest you, saturated or not; in my opinion, that's the only hope for making an exceptional game.
Not because chess is so good, mind you -- I rather think it's crap -- but because I believe that chess became a classic due to the lack of variety of good games to play.
I don't know the history of chess, but I think it's a bit of an exaggeration to call it "crap"; what are your reasons for this assessment?
I think that chess is in a unique position by being so familiar: it can get away with complexity in a way that newer abstracts probably couldn't. In other words, if a new abstract came out that had as many rules as chess, it would probably not attract much interest. But all those rules have a payoff, in that there's also a great deal of richness to chess created by the asymmetric abilities of the pieces, whereas most abstracts I'm aware of have fewer piece types (speking generally here, obviously there are probably many exceptions). So, I agree with you that chess occupies a position of greatness in part because of the same self-perpetuating cycle that keeps Monopoly a big seller. But "successful" and "crap" don't need to be synonyms; chess may not be the greatest game ever, but I've always thought it to be quite good. And note that the behavior and play styles of world class chess players shouldn't really be used as a criterion for judging the game's merit.
-Jeff
About chess, I don't like it either. I am just bored to play chess, I simply have no interest to play chess. I played a lot of time and participated to some tournaments. Now there is just no replay value.
It would be more interesting if I could, for example, customise my army by selecting pieces from a list. Or use chess variation like nightmare chess and tile chess.
Then that poses a question, what is more important: the quick hit popular genre at the time or designing the next classic game like chess?