On Wednesday, February 25, 2004, the Board Game Designers Forum hosted a question and answer session with designer Joe Huber. Joe is the designer of Scream Machine and the forthcoming Corporate Beehavior.
FastLearner: Let's give folks another couple of minutes and then we'll fire up the Q&A
FastLearner: I just bought my copy of Scream Machine on the way home -- I'd only played other folks' copies. Figured I'll buy one new game of everyone I Q&A here.
Scurra: Oh sure
Joe_Huber: As incentive for people to agree to it?
FastLearner: Yup, exactly. LOL
FastLearner: I thought to myself "maybe I should just send Joe a buck instead," but figured improved sales were good, too.
Scurra: Wouldn't that be more than he'd get the normal way?
FastLearner: Ok, let's begin the Q&A. First let me apologize to Joe for posting notices about this chat with a typo.
Joe_Huber: Typo?
FastLearner: So about 5 different places on the net it says "Joe Huberis" instead of "Joe Huber is"
Joe_Huber: Ah - no problem...
FastLearner: Like last time, I'll ask a number of questions and then open up the floor. First,
FastLearner: Tell us about your "life" as a designer. How much time per week, roughly, do you spend actively working on designs? When does inspiration tend to strike?
Joe_Huber: Hmm... a typical week is probably ~5 hours, but most weeks tend toward 0 or Many.
FastLearner: When does inspiration tend to strike?
Joe_Huber: Many times in many places. Driving tends to be good, as does just before going to sleep.
FastLearner: Do you keep a paper notebook/journal, or do you tend to use the computer?
Joe_Huber: Computer. I'll sketch things out on paper on occasion, but very inconsistently - while I have a significant amount of disk space devoted to game design.
FastLearner: Please describe your design process. Theme first, mechanisms first, or something else?
Joe_Huber: Let's see - what comes first. Anything - it's been name, theme, pieces, mechanics, general requests...
FastLearner: Do you take notes?
Joe_Huber: Sometimes, but not all that often.
FastLearner: At what point do you write out the rules? When do you build a prototype?
Joe_Huber: Only when I have to. (A publisher requesting them does wonders, for example...)
FastLearner: Heh
Scurra: Do you keep notes on all your version changes?
Joe_Huber: Only mental notes.
FastLearner: When you're working out a design on the computer, do you tend to write rules or do you more write out thoughts?
FastLearner: I guess publishers might want some rules.
Joe_Huber: Actually, that gets to the final part of the previous question - I don't start with notes, I start with the prototype.
FastLearner: I see.
FastLearner: Do you find that you end up creating a lot of prototypes, then, or do they tend to come out fairly fully-formed?
Joe_Huber: Varies wildly - for simpler games, they usually come out fully-formed. For more complex games, they will go through many, many revisions.
FastLearner: Tell us about the design of Scream Machine. Did it always have that theme? How did the mechanics come about?
Joe_Huber: The theme was there from the start. Before the start, in fact - the theme existed for some time before the game did.
Joe_Huber: The mechanics came together quickly after a 2038 gaming day, when we finished with another game. (I'll leave it to y'all to guess which other game...)
Snoop: I bet I know
Joe_Huber: Yes, you do. You're one of two people who I've seen or heard mention it...
FastLearner: Are the initials RCT?
FastLearner: (or just RT)
FastLearner: I'd think not, but you never know.
Joe_Huber: Nope...
FastLearner: Ok, heh.
FastLearner: Describe your playtesting process. Do your games go through a lot of iterations?
Joe_Huber: Again, it depends upon the game. Most stabilize in the first five plays, and then it's just tweaking. Some are ready save for tweaks from the start.
FastLearner: Do you blind playtest?
Joe_Huber: Only occasionally. It's great for rules work, but otherwise a bit too much work for the return, I find.
FastLearner: Absolutely a lot of work. That makes sense.
FastLearner: I see in Scream Machine that you credit the Greater Hudson Area Gamers.
Joe_Huber: Greater Hudson Area Gamers: that's the once per month gaming group I organize.
Joe_Huber: GHAG also constitutes my lunchtime group.
FastLearner: Ah, yes, I've seen you post about lunchtime gaming a number of times.
FastLearner: I know you've submitted to a fair number of publishers. Have the ones who have rejected your designs provided much useful feedback?
Joe_Huber: It varies. Alea (well, Stefan) gives great feedback when you've got something close.
Joe_Huber: The better I know the people at the company, the better the feedback.
FastLearner: That makes sense, as the reply becomes a personal note, if you will.
FastLearner: How fast have turnaround times been?
Huber: Rejections are sometimes really fast. Record on the long side is up to 20 months and counting...
FastLearner: Yuck... that seems like an absurdly long time.
Joe_Huber: Yeah, 20 months is long. OTOH, I'm just not in a rush.
FastLearner: How many games do you currently have out at publishers?
Joe_Huber: Four seriously, plus a couple of rule sets for publishers to look at.
FastLearner: Tell us about having your games published. Were the contract processes fairly painless?
Joe_Huber: Yes, painless describes it well.
FastLearner: With both Jolly Roger and Plenary?
Joe_Huber: Yes with both.
FastLearner: Excellent, glad to hear it.
FastLearner: Did you receive copies of your games?
Joe_Huber: 12 from Jolly Roger, 20 from Plenary.
FastLearner: That seems like a reasonable number.
Snoop: Joe, did you already receive your 20 from Plenary?
Joe_Huber: Snoop: No, that would require that 20 (or even 1) exist...
Snoop: Yes, that was a dumb question.
FastLearner: Was there much "development"?
Joe_Huber: Very little on Scream Machine or Corporate Beehavior.
FastLearner: Did you get a chance to see the artwork for either? When will CB be out?
Joe_Huber: Some of it for Scream Machine, and I've seen some of the proposed artwork for CB.
DarkDream: Joe, can you tell us about your new game coming out, "Corporate Beehavior"?
Joe_Huber: Corporate Beehavior - I asked Angela last week, and it's not clear - she's gotten much busier with graduate school.
FastLearner: Does it have those little bees from the website? (I speak of these bees: http://home.pcisys.net/~hinj/gamelist.htm)
Joe_Huber: Yes.
FastLearner: What's CB about? How does it play?
Joe_Huber: Corporate Beehavior is a light tile laying game, wherein players try to place their project teams to be most productive.
FastLearner: As much detail as you feel like providing. I'm sure we'll all see it.
Joe_Huber: (Not sure if you want more detail than that, or just what detail...)
DarkDream: How do make a team become more productive?
Joe_Huber: Productivity is a function of location relative to the rest of the team (inexperience benefits from proximity, experience from isolation), location relative to fixed objects (such as coffee), and location relative to the annoying coworkers.
iwigames: when is it due out?
Joe_Huber: Not clear; Angela's hoping for sometime this year, but she doesn't know when.
Scurra: I wonder why "corporate life" is such a popular topic for games?
DarkDream: Many people can associate with it. A lot of people spend at least 8 hours a day in a corporate setting.
DonB: Did you ever consider a Dilbert angle and licensing
DarkDream: Interesting idea
Joe_Huber: Not really - too much more work at no real benefit to the game.
iwigames: For Dilbert would have to change it to less productive teams
FastLearner: LOL
FastLearner: Ok, one last chunk of questions and we'll open up the floor.
FastLearner: What are you working on now?
Joe_Huber: Oh, goodness. The latest two are a deduction game and a colonization game; the next two will be a 5-minute 3-player game to fill Jeanette Vander Ark's request, and a game I desperately need a theme for.
FastLearner: A 5-minute 3-player game is an excellent idea: perfect for that bit of downtime difference between two groups finishing up.
FastLearner: Have you sold any other games?
Joe_Huber: Nothing else yet.
FastLearner: Are there any designs you're working on that you're particularly excited about?
Joe_Huber: Hmm... that's a tough one. The colonization game is fun, as it's out of the ordinary for me in being longer (90 minutes) and almost a board game.
FastLearner: Ok, the floor is open to any questions. I'll ask the 10 questions later.
iwigames: Joe, first thanks for you advice in the Yahoo group forum....
Joe_Huber: You're most welcome.
iwigames: How long did it take to sell your first game? E.g., how many games did you develop before you hit jackpot?
Joe_Huber: I was at ~30 designs when I heard Jim would be publishing SM.
Scurra: How long would you say it was from your first notes about Scream Machine to a copy you held in your hands?
Joe_Huber: I started playtesting it in the Spring of 2001, so about 2.5 years.
Scurra: And when did you think - "hey, this is really going to work"?
Joe_Huber: About the second game. That's usually the sink-or-swim play.
Scurra: Joe, ah yes - but of those ~30 designs, how many of them were any good?
Joe_Huber: Hmmm... ~6 of the 30 were actively bad, and another 9 were just OK. The rest I'm quite fond of.
Joe_Huber: I designed one _really_ awful game in 1997, and then started designing regularly in 1999.
FastLearner: You mentioned that your colonization game is long (90 minutes). What would you say is the average play time of your designs? Are they mostly card games?
Joe_Huber: Average play time is 30-45 minutes, I'd guess. About 2/3 card games, mostly because I find cards easier to work with.
iwigames: Do you find that publishers are more open to card games or board games?
Joe_Huber: Haven't noticed a particular slant. Some publishers have a strong preference (Hans im Glueck doesn't want card games, for example), but most consider either.
DarkDream: What do feel most publishers want with their games?
DarkDream: The criteria they have for them to consider a game being any good
Joe_Huber: As near as I can tell, they want (1) a fun game to their tastes, and then (2) a game that they believe has a market coming from them.
DarkDream: But what about having super simple games that are short
DarkDream: For example, Uberplay wants games that you can learn the rules in 5 minutes
Joe_Huber: Given that even Alea has published the simple, short Wyatt Earp, I'm not sure there's anyone who won't consider such games.
Joe_Huber: (among the "German Game" publishers, of course)
Scurra: I'm not sure I'd call Wyatt Earp simple *or* short...
DonovanLoucks: From reading interviews with Sid Sackson and Reiner Knizia, I'm convinced that game designers should always have dozens of projects in the works. If you hit a brick wall with one, switch projects -- the solution to the other will eventually come.
DarkDream: At least in the U.S., I think people have way lower attention spans these days thus indicating a market for simpler, easier type games
Joe_Huber: I've always found it easier to design simpler games anyway, so it definitely works for me...
DarkDream: I guess the central question is what games are marketable (at least in the U.S.) games with violence? puzzle type games? Civil war type games and so on?
DarkDream: Games with fluffy animals?
FastLearner: Heh
Joe_Huber: I think anything's marketable, but the market's bigger for the easier games.
FastLearner: On Scream Machine there's a bit of errata, in that the rules state there are 12 cubes but only 6 are used. Were there ever 12 cubes? What were the other 6 used for?
Scurra: (Our group used 6 more cubes to remind us what colours players were!)
DonovanLoucks: That's what I thought they were supposed to be for!
Joe_Huber: Yup, that was the idea...
FastLearner: That's kinda what I figured... we tend to do that, too. In fact the last time we played SM we put someone's colored pawns in front of us
DonB: Knizia claims he does not play other designers games. Do you think it is a good thing as a designer to play lots of other designers games?
Joe_Huber: I definitely think it's a good thing. Either that, or it's an excuse because I'm going to play them anyway...
DonB: I have to admit finding it an odd thing for Knizia to say
Scurra: A lot of writers say that they don't read other people "in case they are influenced"
Scurra: but you still need to read a lot to learn about writing
Scurra: I reckon you have to play a lot to learn about designing
Scurra: but after a certain point...
FastLearner: Many (even most?) of the best authors say that they do read other people's stuff, though. I think it's a fantasy to think you can know if your stuff is good by today's standards if you don't know what today's standards are.
Joe_Huber: Among other things, I think you have to play a lot to see what all _has_ been done.
DonB: I think you also have to design a lot to understand designing
Scurra: oh I don't deny that you have to design a lot too!
Joe_Huber: Agreed. I think it's also useful to playtest a lot, but again, that may just be my excuse for doing what I want to do anyway...
iwigames: Something I've been struggling is - how can you tell whether your game has too many similarities with other game?
Joe_Huber: Playtest widely. Someone will point it out to you...
Scurra: I have (too often!) said that I have moved out of my "bad designs" phase, and am now in my "mediocre designs" phase - and one day aspire to the "good designs" phase
FastLearner: And I feel like I'm in the same place, Scurra.
Scurra: I'm not sure if getting something published would mean I've reached the "good designs" phase though
DonB: ditto scurra
Joe_Huber: FWIW, Scream Machine was the 13th game I designed (out of 51 currently).
FastLearner: Were all 51 of those playtested?
FastLearner: If so then you have some amazingly patient friends.
Joe_Huber: Yes - I only assign a number once they've been playtested.
FastLearner: That's impressive.
Joe_Huber: Well, it includes throwaway designs...
iwigames: is game design your "day job?"
Joe_Huber: No, I work in microprocessor design.
DonovanLoucks: Interesting. I can't help but think that technical people are more likely to produce good games. After all, a game is a closed system, like a computer program.
Joe_Huber: I like to think in not entirely coincidental that Sid Sackson was an engineer...
SVan: i better get a new day job
iwigames: I was an engineer. All I need now to join the league is a published game.
DonovanLoucks: And I'm a Software Engineer/Database Analyst.
FastLearner: (Software engineer here, too).
ensor: (yup, Computer Scientist here)
DonB: Do you actively enjoy the design phase or are the thrills in the product - a good game
Joe_Huber: It's the design phase that keeps me coming back. It's really fun trying to solve game design problems...
Scurra: Is that an aspect of your day job? (problem solving)
Joe_Huber: Yes, though for better or worse the problems have shifted more to management problems than engineering problems.
FastLearner: For worse, I guarantee.
Joe_Huber: Yes and no. They can be very satisfying problems to solve - if often ulcer inducing as well...
FastLearner: Valid point.
iwigames: Now, that's a Dilbert game!
iwigames: I've developed an abstract strategy game - I did research on what is/was out and couldn't find anything like it. Then I'd come across a game that has one similar feature, a different game with a different feature...
iwigames: Is it worth approaching game companies that look like they're a one-product company? Are most of them interested in branching out, or just exist for the single game?
Joe_Huber: I don't know that I'd approach a one-product company unless I knew the individual(s) involved, but that's just me.
ensor: How close do you stick to your themes, and how willing are you to retheme them?
Joe_Huber: From an absolute standpoint, my games are loosely themed. I'm usually willing to re-theme, as it's the publisher putting up the money...
ensor: thanks!
FastLearner: Ok, let's whip through Pivot's questions and then open it back up:
FastLearner: 1. What is your favorite word?
Joe_Huber: Prestidigitation.
DonB: Do you prestidigitate?
Joe_Huber: Not at all. Just like the word.
FastLearner: (Prestidigitation is so much fun to say!)
Scurra: (I think that's just misdirection myself)
FastLearner: 2. What is your least favorite word?
Joe_Huber: I don't really have one. Probably some curse word.
FastLearner: 3. What turns you on creatively, spiritually or emotionally?
Joe_Huber: My family.
FastLearner: Amen to that.
FastLearner: 4. What turns you off?
Joe_Huber: Inflexibility.
FastLearner: 5. What is your favorite curse word?
Joe_Huber: Fiddlesticks.
FastLearner: Not much of a curser, I'd guess.
DonovanLoucks: Son of a mother!
FastLearner: 6. What sound or noise do you love?
Joe_Huber: Hmm... closest I can come up with is the sound of my sons' voices on the phone when I'm away.
FastLearner: Very nice.
FastLearner: 7. What sound or noise do you hate?
Joe_Huber: Jet engines.
FastLearner: 8. What profession other than your own would you like to attempt?
Joe_Huber: Nothing else has enough appeal to really pull me away, but given infinite cash I would enjoy running an amusement park. (Yes, really.)
FastLearner: Can't say as I blame you.
FastLearner: 9. What profession would you not like to do?
Joe_Huber: Pivot #9: Game Designer.
FastLearner: Really? Why so?
DonovanLoucks: Deadlines.
Scurra: No money would be my guess
Joe_Huber: Actually, I was semi-ignoring the money issue.
Scurra: (yeah, but I was being a bit sarcastic )
Joe_Huber: Because if it were my job, I'd have to spend far, far more time on the part of game design I don't care for.
Snoop: Come on, Joe. You'd rather be a custodian than a game designer?
Snoop: Isn't the question supposed to mean, what profession would you MOST not like to do?
Joe_Huber: The question wasn't most dislike...
FastLearner: (That's the theory, but it's open to interpretation. )
Snoop: ok
Snoop: Joe has a degree in the custodial arts
FastLearner: What part don't you enjoy?
Joe_Huber: What I don't care for: the effort to push to get things published, the requirement to focus on manufacturable & marketable designs.
FastLearner: Yeah, I can understand that
iwigames: drum roll for #10
Snoop:
FastLearner: Ok, last question:
FastLearner: 10. If Heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the Pearly Gates?
Joe_Huber: Snoop: Custodian (and anything not requiring mental exertion) would in fact be lower on my priority list. But my answer was more fun...
Snoop: that's a strange thing for God to say...
Joe_Huber: Pivot #10: It does, and "Welcome".
FastLearner: Excellent, thank you for all of your time and candor.
FastLearner: One question I meant to ask Snoop last time (and so will in a minute): Joe, what's your favorite game or games right now?
Joe_Huber: I'm going to read that as favorite recent game. Schwarzarbeit, followed by Santiago and Die Steven Siegal.
FastLearner: Schwarzarbeit's by Andrea Meyer, right? What's it like?
Joe_Huber: Schwarzarbeit is a guessing deduction game. Really brilliant little design - there's a memory element that will turn many off, but the game is quite good.
Joe_Huber: And, by the way, you're most welcome. I'm happy to continue answering - or participate in grilling Stephen again...
FastLearner: Today's definitely all about you. But I would like to ask Stephen what game is his current favorite? Stephen?
Snoop: It probably won't surprise you that my favorite Euros at present are 2-player games
Snoop: Yinsh and Carcassonne: The Castle
Scurra: I love The Castle
Snoop: But I'm mostly into Texas Hold'em Poker these days!
Joe_Huber: Poker? POKER?
Snoop: In fact, Joe's helping me design a stream-lined version of poker as we speak.
FastLearner: Can't say as I blame you
Joe_Huber: Snoop: Yeah, but that's just because I like the math...
Snoop: Joe's acting as my human calculator. I punch him and he spits out numbers
DonB: Have the brothers come back for a game?
Snoop: The brothers were not invited back
DonB: Can't say I blame you snoop. Might have been a learning opportunity there though.
Snoop: I hit 4 Aces last Friday. Fortunately, my cousin had an Ace High full house at the same time
DonB: Pretty low odds on that surely!
Snoop: well, there were three Aces on the table.
FastLearner: Joe, do you know much about combinatorics? Is that what you're doing for Stephen? Can I email you a few math questions related to it?
Joe_Huber: Yes and no. I've never studied them, but can usually work out the problems - and will write programs for the rest...
Joe_Huber: And I'm always happy to answer questions....
FastLearner: Cool. I'm trying to write a little program to calculate card combinations (to provide for game designers everywhere) and am having a bit of trouble with it.
Snoop: are you familiar with the book Winning Ways for your Mathematical Plays?
Joe_Huber: Haven't seen it, no.
FastLearner: Me neither.
ensor: I have the first volume, but haven't had the time to study it yet. Is it good?
Snoop: It's rather dense. I think it's about combinatoral mathematics
Snoop: It's a book for math-types.
FastLearner: This site explains the basics in poker: http://www.mathwizz.com/statistics/help/help3.htm
FastLearner: I'm just having some difficulty turning it into usable algorithms.
Scurra: (I'm enjoying "Rules of Play" very much atm. There's a lot of "teach your grandmother to suck eggs" in it, but it's pretty comprehensive)
FastLearner: Ah, good... I'm still thinking of picking it up and likely will before long.
Snoop: Teach Your Grandmother to Suck Eggs????
Scurra: Stating the obvious and/or telling you things you already knew
Snoop: Oh, I figured there would be a bit of that. I'm mostly interested in reading it for inspiration
Is that why its name was changed from "Cubicle Crunch"?