On Wednesday, February 11, 2004, the Board Game Designers Forum hosted a question and answer session with designer Stephen "Snoop" Glenn. Stephen is the designer of Balloon Cup, a Spiel des Jahres nominee, and the forthcoming Jet Set.
FastLearner Tell us about your "life" as a designer. How much time per week, roughly, do you spend actively working on designs? When does inspiration tend to strike?
Snoop I'd probably say a couple hours a day. Fortunately, I have a lot of free time at work.
Snoop I don't have any real answer to the inspiration question
Snoop it strikes when it strikes
Snoop lately I seem to be on a roll, though
Snoop When I need inspiration, I usually find it in the shower, or late at night drifting off to sleep
FastLearner Excellent, thanks.
Snoop Unfortunately, that means I have to get out of bed a lot to write things down
FastLearner Heh, indeed. I've often felt the same frustration.
FastLearner Please describe your design process. Theme first, mechanisms first, or something else? Do you take notes? At what point do you write out the rules? When do you build a prototype?
Snoop I've started worrying more about mechanic first, instead of theme...
Snoop as I've found out, theme is not up to me, as a Euro designer
Snoop at least not until I have a little more "weight" as a designer
Snoop I'm sure Knizia or Moon could push the issue. When Kosmos decided to change the theme of Piñata to Balloon Cup, it didn't matter to me in the slightest
kgnunn Even Moon has to change theme from time to time.
FastLearner Was Balloon Cup differently themed?
Snoop yes. It was originally about striking a piñata and collecting candy
Snoop One game that I've been working on for a LONG time is about early 19th century gangsters
Snoop It's a theme that is heavily attached to the mechanics. I can't imagine changing the theme
FastLearner At what point do you write out the rules?
Snoop Regarding notes, I keep a notebook where I scribble ideas down.
Snoop When I feel like I've got something do-able I tend to like to get the rules down quickly
Snoop I love to write rules.
Snoop It gives me that initial lump of clay to start carving away
FastLearner At what point do you build a prototype? Early on, to test mechanisms, or generally later, once you've got most of the game in place?
Snoop Usually pretty early if I really like the idea.
Snoop Aaron Weissblum told me he feels the same way about prototypes (less about rules)
FastLearner Creating them early?
Snoop as soon as possible
FastLearner Describe your playtesting process. Do your games go through a lot of iterations? Do you blind playtest?
Snoop My playtesting process? err...
Snoop not a great situation there
Snoop I don't have a game group or a playtesting group
Snoop I get by with a little help from my online friends
FastLearner Do you send them files, or printed protos?
Snoop I like to send protos
Snoop But for Balloon Cup (Piñata) I just sent out files
Snoop speaking of playtesting, I can't wait for someone to formalize some playtesting software so I can do it online
FastLearner As I mentioned on the SAZ list, it looks like VASL might be good for playtesting online. I know there are a couple of folks (myself included) who are trying it out.
Snoop what's the progress on that?
Snoop does it appear to be do-able?
FastLearner For me, it will still be another week or two. Yeah, it does appear to be.
FastLearner Matt Worden is ready to test his game, Castle Danger, with it right now. He's got it all set up.
Snoop I'd really like to be a part of that playtesting session with Castle Danger
FastLearner I'll contact Matt and find out when he's ready to give it a go.
kgnunn For the rest of us, what's VASL?
FastLearner Check out http://www.vasl.org for info.
FastLearner It's a virtual boardgame playing system.
kgnunn thx.
hpox I don't think VASSAL will cut it. For boardgames that is. VASSAL is a virtual playground for "wargames" and other type of games with counters and cards.
Snoop it's software to play ASL online
Snoop apparently you can make lots of other boardgames with it
Snoop could be a real godsend
kgnunn I knew of it as a ASL system, but didn't know it was so flexible.
FastLearner Agree.
Snoop Oh, before I forget, I wanted to say Congratulations to Matthew for his placing in the game design contest!
FastLearner Have you submitted to many game publishers? Have the ones who have rejected your designs provided much useful feedback? How fast have turnaround times been?
Snoop I have submitted to Ravensburger, Alea, Goldseiber, Fantasy Flight,..
Snoop the feedback is good for submitting to that particular company
Snoop for example, I sent a rather (I thought) simple city planning game to Ravensburger...
Snoop they told me it was good, but too complex
FastLearner Interesting.
Snoop I sent a 2 player game to Stefan Brueck at Alea. He liked it but said it was too complex
Snoop So he sent it to Kosmos. They said it was too abstract
Snoop Now it's with Fantasy Flight
FastLearner Heh.
Snoop I've never been told that a game is "bad". Just that it didn't suit their program at that time
Snoop Of course, that could be a way to avoid hurt feelings
crparis How long had you been developing it?
Snoop about six months I guess
FastLearner Here's a big one:
FastLearner Tell us about having your games published. Were the contract processes fairly painless? Did you receive copies of your games? Did you provide playtester credits? Was there much "development"? Did you review the artwork before the game was published?
Snoop uh oh
Snoop yes, yes, yes, yes, no
Snoop :)
Snoop The contract process was pretty painless.
Snoop They sent it via e-mail for me to check it out. I told them it was fine. I would have told them anything was fine
Snoop I would have done it for free, to be quite honest
FastLearner I understand that.
FastLearner Negotiation was limited and/or non-existent?
Snoop no negotiation from me. I e-mailed a copy to a good friend of mine who owned Funagain..he said it looked pretty standard
crparis (Which game are we discussing specifically?)
FastLearner (Balloon Cup, in this case)
Snoop oh. B-Cup
FastLearner You received multiple copies of your game, I'd guess?
Snoop I rec'd a lot of copies
FastLearner Cool.
Snoop There are still a few dozen stacked up behind me as we speak
FastLearner Wow, that's more than I would have thought.
PSauberer Prize table fodder?
Snoop I rec'd a batch of copies when it was released. Then they sent me another big batch when it was nominated for SdJ
Snoop Then I got a small stack of English, Korean and Dutch copies
jwarrend When you went to Kosmos with BC, was there any understanding as to whether/how the game would be distributed in the US?
Snoop no. not at first
Snoop It was Jay's decision to publish it in English
FastLearner (Jay is Jay Tummelson of Rio Grande Games, for reference).
Snoop oh yea. sorry
Snoop Kosmos had already decided to publish it before RGG got involved
Snoop the contract did stipulate the terms of foreign printings, but it didn't guarantee any
Snoop it's in 4 languages so far
FastLearner Very cool.
hpox I guess it's fair that you have no say in the graphics since they pay someone to do it. Having to pay for another batch of graphics because the designer don't like them might be a bit too much to ask...
Snoop I had nothing to do with the graphics
FastLearner I figured you wouldn't have any say over the graphics, per se, but I wondered if there might have been any kind of "Do you see any problems this might create with play?" kind of question.
PSauberer Speaking of which, what did the SdJ nomination do for sales?
Snoop improved them, I hope
Snoop I honestly have no idea
Snoop Kosmos has sent me no numbers
Snoop I'm supposed to get a statement by the end of March
Snoop all I've rec'd so far was a modest advance. That was a year ago.
FastLearner So... yearly statements, then?
Snoop yes. According to my contract, yearly statements
Snoop (fingers crossed)
FastLearner I was reading on the SAZ site that quarterlies were most common. Interesting, maybe that's a Kosmos thing.
Snoop I'm very curious to see what type of figure will be on the check
FastLearner No kidding.
FastLearner :)
FastLearner Did you provide playtester credits for them to include? Any kind of "special thanks to" or any of that stuff?
Snoop Hmm. Matthew, I guess you'll have to buy a copy and look in the rules
Snoop for playtester credits
FastLearner (Sorry, I have one but it's not with me here so I couldn't check.)
Snoop Yes, they did allow me to thank my testers
FastLearner Great.
Snoop and I got my wife and kids a mention too
FastLearner Excellent!
FastLearner As you mentioned, they rethemed the game. Was there much "development," anything that changed the rules to speak of?
Snoop several rules changes
Snoop is that something you'd like me to go into in detail?
FastLearner I'd be quite interested, personally. Anyone else?
hpox yes!
Snoop nothing that changed the spirit of the game -- well, maybe the 3-1 trade did
Snoop The changes are listed at the geek I think
FastLearner Ah, cool.
Snoop They almost didn't publish it.
Snoop They didn't like the idea that you could have cubes left over that were meaningless
Snoop That's where the 3-1 rule came in
FastLearner Wow. Interesting.
crparis Do you think the change was made to make the game more "friendly"..?
Snoop Unfortunately, that opened up a lot of holes in the English rules that didn't cover exactly *when* you could make trades
Snoop I thought it made it LESS friendly, to be honest
Snoop Or I should say, less family-friendly
FastLearner Ah, that makes sense. Kind of a bummer.
Snoop Of course, the 3-1 rule doesn't really jibe with my original theme (pinata)
FastLearner Heh, no, true.
kgnunn Interesting. I just learned the game, and thought the 3-1 rule was one of its strengths.
Snoop many people agree with you on that
kgnunn Hm.
Snoop it definitely makes you THINK a lot more before making moves
Snoop which makes it better for gamers, but less so for families
kgnunn exactly.
FastLearner Were you involved with the development process at all, or did they just say "here are the new rules, it's at the printers"?
Snoop they asked me for ideas before they came up with the 3-1 rule
Snoop I actually had another idea (which I never tested)
Snoop I said for every "useless" cube you had you could increase your hand size by one
FastLearner Ah, that's good. Were you able to express your concerns about it? That is, was it an interactive process?
Snoop It was probably less interactive than it could have been.
Snoop You have to understand, I was ready to sell my soul to get my name on a box
FastLearner (I understand that.)
Snoop If they were happy I was happy
hpox Can you still play your old way with the published game?
Snoop Sure.
FastLearner Ok, here's my last batch of prepared questions:
FastLearner What are you working on now? Have you sold any other games? Are there any designs you're working on that you're particularly excited about?
Snoop I actually have about six games in development
Snoop I currently have one game with Goldseiber, one game with Fantasy Flight.
Snoop they are being evaluated.
Snoop Oh, and Jet Set. Due out in April by Plenary
FastLearner Can you describe Jet Set?
FastLearner The website doesn't really have anything on it yet.
Snoop Jet Set is the cardgame that placed in the 2002 Hippodice competition
Snoop It's a very simple, card drafting game with two levels of scoring
Snoop Sort of on the level with Reibach & Co. or King's Breakfast
FastLearner Balloon Cup and Jet Set are both card games (primarily). Do you have any board-heavy games out there?
Snoop I'm not as good at board/heavy games. They're harder to playtest
Snoop But I am working on some
Snoop my heaviest one is probably The Flying Scotsman. It's a train game.
Snoop (very excited about that one, btw)
hpox Cool. a train game!
FastLearner Sounds interesting. Is that the name of a historical train?
Snoop yes sir. Commissioned by the British in 1923
FastLearner Cool.
hpox Are you using cards in this Train game?
Snoop no
Snoop no cards
hpox Is this because you have already designed many games with cards that you feel "sick" of them in some way?
Snoop I'm pretty excited about it. I wish I could say more about it at this time, but I really can't
Snoop No. I love cards.
Snoop I just had a very specific direction for The Flying Scotsman that didn't involve cards
hpox Alright.
FastLearner BTW, Snoop's answered my last prepared question, so the floor is open for questions now.
hpox In average, how much time you need to complete a game design? (counting prototype, playtesting separately) I know you said 6 months for Balloon Cup, what about the others and how much time was devoted to each part?
Snoop well, officially I've only "completed" two games. B-Cup and Jet Set.
Snoop Both are fairly simple designs. Not a lot of moving parts
Snoop Easier for me to solo playtest before I push them on humans
Joe_Huber Interesting - you only consider a game "completed" when it's sold?
Snoop I don't even know if I consider *those* games completed
hpox Do you take into account components cost packaging or just hopefully let that to publishers to figure out?
Snoop you have to take component cost into account. That's the first thing a publisher will look at
Snoop "how much will this cost me to make"
hpox I'm curious if you were ever considering self-publishing or just posting them on the web.
Snoop I don't know if I ever seriously considered self-publishing. That's REAL work.
hpox It's that important to them? Learned something new!
Joe_Huber If you considered the game unpublishable from a component cost, would you still pursue the design if it otherwise interested you?
Snoop probably not, Joe
Snoop I'd work on getting the costs down
Snoop I'll be honest - I want to make money doing this
Joe_Huber Is money among your primary objectives?
Snoop Yes
Snoop But it's not the only objective
Snoop I want a reputation as a solid designer
Snoop I would never put my name on anything I thought was a "bad" game
Joe_Huber How do you think you'll get that reputation?
Joe_Huber (Well, besides the SdJ nomination and all...)
Snoop Designing quality games
FastLearner If you were to rank these, how would you: Money, Fame (as it were), Entertaining People
FastLearner Or whatever else you'd add to it.
Snoop hmm
Snoop Let me phrase it this way...
FastLearner (I knew that was a loaded question!)
hpox You don't have to answer if you don't want.
Snoop I think the luckiest people are those who can make a living doing something they love
FastLearner Agreed. Utterly.
Snoop the "making a living" part includes money. So that's pretty important
Snoop I have a wife. Two kids
FastLearner Responsibility
Joe_Huber Do you feel any of the big name designers out there have ever put their names on a game they thought was bad?
Snoop That they "thought" were bad?
Snoop No idea
Snoop Do you mean that the publisher changed something that screwed up the game?
FastLearner I think that would be a much more likely scenario.
Joe_Huber No - referring to your comment above about not putting your name on something you thought was bad...
FastLearner It doesn't seem likely that many designers would say "Here's a piece of crap I put together... will you publish it?"
Snoop If I thought a game was truly wretched, I wouldn't submit it in the first place
Joe_Huber Sure - but they might design something they didn't care for if they thought it had commercial potential...
Snoop I doubt I would be interested in doing that
Snoop at that point, it stops becoming something I love to do
Snoop then it would be a real job and I would lose all interest
Snoop Joe, it's basically a long shot, I know. But I'll keep plugging away
Snoop I like it enough to keep trying
FastLearner That's the only way long shots are ever accomplished.
Joe_Huber So - if I can put this all together - you'd be willing to design games that interest based upon their commercial potential, but wouldn't design something you don't care for.
Snoop I think that's right, Joe
Joe_Huber Stephen, I keep telling you - I don't think your SdJ nomination was a fluke...
Snoop Joe, you love what you do, right?
Joe_Huber Yup...
Snoop What if they stopped paying you to do it?
Snoop Or what if they could only afford min wage, or something like that
Joe_Huber I'd certainly still be interested in it, but it would likely drop to a "hobby".
Joe_Huber (Even at minimum wage, for the same reasons money is on your game design reason list...)
Snoop Right. I'm trying to make my game designing more than a hobby. That's where the money part comes in
Snoop Basically I'm trying NOT to come off like a whore
Joe_Huber Understood - I was just interested in where you drew your line. I think you've drawn it very reasonably - if not where I do...
FastLearner I'd like to make money designing games so that I can spend more time designing games. I'd like my games to be published, though, mostly because I'd like people to have fun with them. (That's where my line is, as if it was interesting.)
Snoop I feel the same way, Matt. I want to design games more than I want to do anything else. So I better make sure I can make some money from it
FastLearner Precisely.
PSauberer When and how did the designing bug bite? I am in a gaming group with Al Newman and another member has designed a game that is being evaluated by Angela. I have had absolutely no desire to design. Sometimes I wonder if that's normal. It seems like most of the group members have designs they've thought about.
FastLearner That's a great question, Paul.
Snoop I love to create. I've been an artist, one way or another, all of my life
Snoop I've written short stories, one act plays, composed music...
Snoop When I discover something and develop a passion for it, it's a natural extension for me to want to create it
FastLearner I think you've really hit on it, Stephen. I know that I always find it strange that my gaming buddies -- who LOVE to play -- have no interest in designing.
FastLearner But then I've always been super-creative, too.
Snoop I just wish I could draw.
IngredientX Likewise... I wish I could draw too
Joe_Huber Stephen - would you ever do the production art for your own game?
Snoop no way
Snoop I'd want it to be presentable
Snoop My first love was 2-player abstracts. I started off by designing (some pretty bad) 2-player abstracts
Joe_Huber Do you find lack of drawing talent ever gets in the way of game design?
Snoop no. lack of drawing talent never gets in the way
IngredientX That's a relief.
PSauberer So Snoop, how long between finding German games did it take before you thought about designing?
Snoop I designed games before I found out about Euros.
Snoop Like I said, I started with 2-player abstracts.
FastLearner When was your very first design?
Snoop When I discovered Euros, I tinkered with some online e-mail games
Snoop probably a game called Barrels
Snoop It's really too embarrassing to describe
Snoop But at the time I thought I'd designed the next Chess
Snoop My first game that I thought was pretty good was The Road to the Stoopid Bowl
Snoop It was a pbem game. Football RPG
Snoop The system was REALLY simple. The game part was a lot like Hol's der Geier.
FastLearner How long ago was that?
Snoop But the fun part came in that the team owners would post messages between each week's games
Snoop They would make up stories about their teams, the players, etc. LOTS of fun
FastLearner Did it get played?
Snoop Oh yes. We ran a few seasons back in the day
Snoop Hol's der Geier = Raj = Beat the Buzzard
Snoop My next big idea was the game I sent to Ravensburger several times (and got rejected several times) ... Concrete Forest
DonovanLoucks I don't think I could earn a living designing games. So, my plan is to first earn enough money running my business so I can retire, then I'll make games.
DonovanLoucks Keep in mind that Reiner Knizia is effectively retired, and Sid Sackson supplemented his game design income by writing articles and reviews.
FastLearner Stephen, did your family play games when you were a kid? If so, do you think that contributed to your desire to design them?
Snoop I wanted to play lots of games when I was a kid. But I could never convince my brother to play a lot with me
FastLearner I've always wanted to do this with game designers, so Stephen, would you be willing to answer the famous Bernard Pivot 10 questions?
Snoop What are these questions you're talking about?
FastLearner Here they are:
FastLearner 1. What is your favorite word?
Snoop my favorite word?
FastLearner Yup
Snoop peace
FastLearner 2. What is your least favorite word?
FastLearner Assuming you can think of one.
Snoop hate
FastLearner 3. What turns you on creatively, spiritually or emotionally?
Snoop that's a hard question
FastLearner Aye.
Snoop should there be three answers? Or just one?
FastLearner It's up to you.
FastLearner It's an open question.
Snoop I'll say honesty
FastLearner Cool.
Snoop am I getting graded on this?
FastLearner 4. What turns you off?
Snoop meanness and stupidity
FastLearner 5. What is your favorite curse word?
Snoop shit
Snoop I got that from my mother
FastLearner 6. What sound or noise do you love?
Snoop sound or noise ... hmm
Snoop Abbey Road
FastLearner (great answer)
FastLearner 7. What sound or noise do you hate?
Snoop the ALARM CLOCK IN THE MORNING
FastLearner This one will probably be easy for you:
FastLearner 8. What profession other than your own would you like to attempt?
Snoop Well, of course, game designer, but...
Snoop if I had to pick something more "stable" it would be computer programmer
artbytes_too What do you do now, besides designing games?
Snoop English teacher
FastLearner 9. What profession would you not like to do?
Snoop policeman.
Snoop I'd be depressed every day if I had to see everyone at their worst
FastLearner Last one. It's a toughie, I think:
FastLearner 10. If Heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the Pearly Gates?
Snoop You win!
FastLearner Awesome answer!
IngredientX Hey Snoop, two quick questions
IngredientX And I apologize if they were already asked
IngredientX First, didn't Balloon Cup have a different theme at first?
Snoop Balloon Cup started out as Piñata
IngredientX As in, players were trying to knock down piñatas?
Snoop no, players are trying to collect candy that has fallen out of a pinata
IngredientX Ahhh, I see
IngredientX Do you prefer the Balloon racing theme?
Snoop no. I like Piñata better
IngredientX Honest answer, thanks!
PSauberer Do they know what piñatas are in Germany?
Snoop good question
Snoop I have no idea
Snoop I don't know if Germans know what Piñatas are
Snoop I would assume they do
IngredientX And second, is PowWow still happening?
Snoop PowWow is still happening
IngredientX Awesome, I can't wait for it!
HaoleBoy With your success, has the European glass ceiling been broken for both game designers and players in the States? Are we an untapped market now?
IngredientX You are an English teacher!
Snoop um...
Snoop I don't know if there was a glass ceiling.
IngredientX lol
FastLearner Alan Moon's success might have accomplished that, if anyone, I would think.
Snoop And if there were, Sid Sackson broke it years before I was born
FastLearner And yeah, Sid before that.
Snoop I think American designers *are* an untapped market. I hope the new American/Euro publishers (Uberplay/Out of the Box) will help in that regard
Snoop And that's what I hope to do with Protospiel/PowWow
FastLearner I agree with you, certainly, and really appreciate what you've been doing with PS/PW.
Joe_Huber Stephen - having put up with lots of questions from the peanut gallery, are there any questions you have _for_ the peanut gallery?
Snoop um...
FastLearner Good question, Joe.
Snoop Okay, I have a question for the group...
Snoop Are you all coming to POWWOW this summer!!!
Darkehorse Yes
FastLearner I hope to, yes.
Darkehorse I encourage all of you east coasters to attend as well..
IngredientX Hell yeah!
Snoop it's gonna be a blast
Joe_Huber Re: PowWow: No...
PSauberer If I was a designer I would, but I'm not so I won't
Snoop Paul you can come too
Joe_Huber After all, Paul, they'll need experienced playtesters...
Snoop no pants allowed
IngredientX lol
FastLearner No pants. Hmm. Well, I may not be able to make it.
FastLearner Pressing commitments and all.
Snoop "pressing"? Was that supposed to be a joke?
FastLearner Yes
Snoop I would like to say I'm glad that there were no wardrobe malfunctions during tonight's chat
FastLearner LOL, so true. Though my nipple ring is aching something fierce.
PSauberer I've got another question that I've tossed out to my group but no one seems to have a firm opinion...
PSauberer With the entry of so many new publishers in the USA, can the market absorb them all successfully?
Snoop No clue, Paul.
FastLearner I would think that the answer to that is "No." Not beyond a certain point, anyway.
Darkehorse Paul: I think it is possible to create a new market.. After all, alot of american consumers might not even know about the 'German' market
PSauberer Is the demand such that one (Rio Grande) could make it fine, but there is not a big enough pie for them and Plenary and Dancing Eggplant, et al. be supported?
FastLearner I, too, think that there's still a ton of room for market growth here in the US.
Snoop Let's hope so
PSauberer Also, thanks for the welcoming attitude, but if I am able to get to one gaming event, it'll be the Oasis.
PSauberer It will still take a lot of things coming together to enable that, however.
DonB You had better do something about the US$ or local games are going to be all you see!
IngredientX Society has a long way to go before accepting board games
IngredientX Like, say, Korea has (with all the boardgame cafes they have)
nosissies so, do you thing the closing of wizards of the coast/gamekeepers will slow down that growth?
PSauberer I doubt if WotC was a gateway for a lot of people, just judging by their shelf space allocation
nosissies true, the euros were a pretty minimal portion of the store, but it is more than nothing.
FastLearner Mr. Don Bone, for those here who might not know, designed the excellent Sunda to Sahul.
IngredientX (pssst, Don, I just bought your game... my wife doesn't know yet! )
Snoop Don, are you from the U.S.?
DonB Snoop. I'm in Australia.
Snoop Australia! Do you know Dave?
Snoop (sorry, I'm getting in a silly mood)
DonB The Australian population is actually large enough to accommodate a few Daves. Does he have a last name?
FastLearner LOL, Don.
Darkehorse Let me pose a question to snoop (and the rest of the group as well). What do you think about creating a game that you know will sell to the average american consumer that might not fit the 'designer' category? I.E. to sell out to make money, in short.
PSauberer Darkehorse, I don't necessarily think one would have to do that.
PSauberer As an example, I'll point the Powerpuff Girls card game.
Darkehorse I'm not saying they would have to. But say you designed a game to target walmart, then with the profits, you design what you WANT to design afterwards, because money is no longer an issue.
artbytes_too If I wanted to sellout I could justify it saying that I did it to get the public to know me and then slowly introduce them to the real thing!
Snoop I think the PowerPuff Girls card game is a fine game
Snoop It's not Puerto Rico, but I enjoy playing it with my daughter
PSauberer It was definitely aimed at the great unwashed, but is a decent little game. It's no E&T, but it is no Candyland, either.
Snoop I wouldn't have a problem with designing a game like that
PSauberer I think that a quality game can be designed that also could show up on a Target shelf.
Snoop Yes, but it would almost certainly have to be a licensed game
Darkehorse That's what I've been considering lately.. My wife keeps asking me when my designs are going to make some money, and I keep telling her the type of games I like to design probably won't make a lot of money...
PSauberer I doubt if something like Age of Steam would ever have wide appeal, though.
DonB Germany seems to have managed just that.
DonB Quality games on department store shelves I mean.
Snoop agreed
FastLearner True, but Monopoly still outsells the designer games there like 10 to 1.
artbytes_too Well, Target is know for designer games already!!!!!!!!
FastLearner My big question: is there any hope that the mainstream big-time game companies -- Hasbro and it's kids, mostly -- will ever be willing to promote the "designer" angle, with the designers' names on the boxes.
nosissies where/when do you see the American public coming into contact with "designer" games?
Snoop You could sell a game like Midnight Party at Target, but it would have to be called The Casper Game
Snoop Milton Bradley is already looking into developing more Euro-type games
FastLearner That's good.
PSauberer Actually, Casper would be a great theme for that game.
PSauberer I'm not surprised.
Darkehorse Take a game like settlers: It's been around for 10 years, probably the best selling designer game of all time, but does it even hold a candle to such department store games like Cranium or Clue or whatever?
DonB FL: Traumefabrik
DonB FL: Surprisingly, it does in Germany as well
IngredientX FL: If Hasbro ever got solid evidence that they'd sell more boxes with an author's credit, they'd do it
FastLearner Yup, agreed. Not sure such evidence can ever exist, though, as I don't know of anyone who has, for example, come out with a game called "Fun with Pharaohs" with no designer name, then later "Reiner Knizia's Amun Re"... that's the only really empirical evidence, and even that wouldn't really work.
IngredientX Good point, FL. I don't know how it could be judged either
Snoop Mattel has asked me to work on some games for them. I'm trying to sell them a game that's half Uno, half 6 Nimmt
FastLearner That would be outstanding, snoop.
Darkehorse So licensing is the way to go...
DonB So is mattel more adventurous in the US than Hasbro?
PSauberer There are some decent little games out there by Hasbro- The Battleship Card Game is another.
Snoop Also some racing games using the Hotwheels theme
Snoop and a press-your-luck game that they've been trying to match to a license for going on two years
FastLearner Designs of yours, Snoop?
IngredientX Ooo, now I want to be a game designer too!
Snoop But these are games I'm proud to have designed, and I don't consider them sellouts
FastLearner That's fantastic, wow.
Snoop regarding working with Mattel, these agreements are still way off (and may not materialize at all). But the point is, big US companies are aware of Euro-type games and are becoming more receptive
IngredientX Snoop: That is interesting... but are they marketing to entire families, or just kids?
Snoop Family games.
PSauberer It seems as if Hasbro's Family Game Night promotion has been fairly successful, at least they've kept with it.
FastLearner I'd certainly love for them to be marketing them to adults, but hey, if nothing else, let's get the next generation going ton some of these games. Good for the brain, and great thinking habits.
IngredientX Interesting
Snoop Of course, I just bought Pitch Six from Hasbro and that clearly states that it's for adults
Snoop so what do I know?
IngredientX Yes, and if it's family-oriented, instead of just child-oriented
IngredientX Then that's a big step
IngredientX That means it must appeal to adults as well as kids
IngredientX Instead of "buy this for your kid, throw it in his room, and drive off to work."
DonB So what has prompted the change?
Snoop I can't think of a good answer to your question
Snoop I'm probably not the best person to ask
Snoop But I do know that there were some Mattel folks at the Gathering last year
Snoop And the designers at Hasbro are very active in gaming forums. They know about designer games
PSauberer Hasbro also released Spite & Malice, another decent reworking of a public domain game
Snoop I was disappointed to find out that Spice & Malice was just Skip Bo
PSauberer I've never played Skip-Bo. I think that it is probably a version of Spite & Malice
PSauberer I think it has been around for quite awhile as a game for a standard deck.
nosissies spite and malice is the old standby which my wife and I play
DonB Snoop: Except for 1 or two games, I would not have thought that sales to date would be sufficient to entice the Mattels or the Hasbros in the US
nosissies three standard decks actually.
IngredientX I thought they got cold feet after trying to market the LotR board game in Target
Snoop Well, Hasbro did publish Acquire a few years ago.
Darkehorse not to mention Cosmic..
artbytes_too Do you think there is something "we" could do to help the process?
artbytes_too ...Maybe an amateur design contest like they do in Europe?
FastLearner The BGDF just sponsored one, artbytes. I know that Darke is hoping to grow it.
artbytes_too ...Yes, that's what I mean...
Darkehorse Our contest needs more oomph and exposure...
artbytes_too Maybe also becoming members of the SAZ.
PSauberer Snoop, have you ever attempted a reworking of a public domain game?
Snoop I've become really fanatical about poker recently. Maybe something along those lines
Darkehorse hmmm poker
DonB You should try Faidutti and Colovini's game Vabanque
DonovanLoucks I'm still catching up on things, but I wanted to point out that most sales of games like "Monopoly" are probably because it's being bought as a gift. No one plays it!
DonB Hasbro actually has a quite active German arm that publishes some decent games
Snoop Yes. Traumfabrik, Don Pepe, Rheinlander
IngredientX Yeah, but the question is, will the games the German wing makes sell in the US?
Snoop Can I tell you a funny story about Walmart?
Snoop I had lunch with an executive from Mattel last year. She explained how Mattel sold games to Walmart...
DonB By the pound?
Snoop Basically there's one 80-year old guy that does the game buying for them
IngredientX Hmmm
Snoop They have to be able to describe a game in two sentences or less -- or he's not interested
IngredientX lol
DonB The elevator pitch
Snoop For example: It's a racing batman game.
Snoop Something the guy could understand immediately.
Darkehorse That's probably why the Survival Game is on every shelf in america
Snoop Survivor Trivia
Snoop Lord of the Rings Uno
Snoop the guy has to be able to immediately conceptualize it
Snoop But be honest , how many of us...
Snoop walk to the game section every time we go to Walmart, just hoping to see a miracle?
IngredientX Marvin Kitman of Newsday talked about how he thought TV execs came up with ideas
IngredientX There'd be a producer in a pool
IngredientX Floating in an inflatable chair
IngredientX Surrounded by writers
IngredientX The producer would dunk a writer's head underwater
IngredientX And the writer was only allowed to surface when he came up with an idea
nosissies sounds like the stories I hear from a friend of mine trying to be a screenwriter, gotta have that tag line
FastLearner As in "The Graduate, Part II".
artbytes_too I say let's get rid of the man.
DonovanLoucks I'm reminded of the contest idea I pitched to Seth...
Joe_Huber You know, there's a game in this somewhere...
IngredientX lol
FastLearner Thanks very much for your time, Stephen. I appreciate all of the information and insight you've shared tonight.
hpox Thanks for your time Snoop.
Snoop hey I would have been here anyway.
Snoop thanks for treating me like a big shot
FastLearner Like Joe said, the SdJ nom isn't a fluke imo, either, so you are a bit of a big shot.
Snoop I'll try to talk Alan Moon into stopping by
Snoop (there's some name dropping for ya)
Thanks again to Stephen for taking the time for such an interesting chat!
-- Matthew
