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Chat Transcript - Thursday, 31-Mar-2005 -"Indirect Conf

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Brykovian
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Here is a PDF version of the chat log from our scheduled Thursday lunchtime session on 31-March-2005. The topic was "Indirect Conflict".

http://www.bgdf.com/showdown/BrownBagChat/BGDF_BrownBagChat_20050331_IndirectConflict.pdf

-Bryk

Zomulgustar
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Chat Transcript - Thursday, 31-Mar-2005 -"Indirect Conf

I wasn't able to make it today...thanks a lot for doing these!

Hedge-o-Matic
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Chat Transcript - Thursday, 31-Mar-2005 -"Indirect Conf

Huh, I wish I'd been in on this!

For my posthumus two cents, I'd have to describe direct and indirect like this: Direct conflict has a material effect on game actors, such as loss of pieces, rescources, or position, while indirect conflict involves loss of mental or psychological rescources, such as concentration (being distracted by feints, and non-vital threats), or clear assessment (posturing or threatening actions that serve only to interfere with assessment of an action's value, such as making attacking a given piece or position seem riskier than it really is).

As you can see, indirect conflict, in my definition, resides in the mind, while direct conflict is everything else involved in the game, such as victory conditions and play state. Direct conflict is an ingredient in all games, since they are to be won or lost, while indirect conflict is present to the degree of a game's sophistication and the control of the players over events.

Rick-Holzgrafe
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Chat Transcript - Thursday, 31-Mar-2005 -"Indirect Conf

To me, direct conflict is tearing down something an opponent has built. Indirect conflict is influencing an opponent's opportunities. In Settlers of Catan, most conflict is indirect. But breaking an opponent's road by building a settlement on it is direct. The robber I think of as mostly indirect: you could argue that stealing cards is tearing down an opponent's hand, but I think of hand cards as resources and opportunities, since they come and go even without the robber.

Ticket to Ride is all indirect. Tigris and Euphrates has both direct and indirect conflict. El Grande has direct conflict, since you can move your opponent's pieces around and even banish them from the board. But note that in all of these games, you cannot take away an opponent's Victory Points.*

So I think Euro-games do have direct conflict. But they seem to heavily favor the indirect, and avoid themes and mechanics that are built around basically direct conflict, such as wargames.

* Yeah, okay, in Settlers and TtR you can take away awards like the Longest Road and the Largest Army. Picky, picky!

Hedge-o-Matic
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Chat Transcript - Thursday, 31-Mar-2005 -"Indirect Conf

Two good working definitions. Very nice.

In a hundred years, these terms will be better defined, or we game designers will have a complex jargon for such specific ideas. I suspect there's already a specific, multi-syllabic word in German that expresses these concepts perfectly!

jwarrend
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Chat Transcript - Thursday, 31-Mar-2005 -"Indirect Conf

I've been working on a Topics in Game Design thread for a while now, which I just finally finished and posted here, on the subject of player interaction.

It takes a somewhat different approach towards classifying the types of player interaction, but probably covers some of the same ground. Check it out if interested!

-Jeff

Nando
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Chat Transcript - Thursday, 31-Mar-2005 -"Indirect Conf

Rick-Holzgrafe wrote:
To me, direct conflict is tearing down something an opponent has built. Indirect conflict is influencing an opponent's opportunities.

This seems to me to be the best conceptualization so far. The nut of "indirect" is the idea of some sort of intermediary, an additional element between cause and effect. This idea seems nicely conveyed by the phrase "influencing opportunities."

I see indirect conflict as changing an opponent's context or environment. Everyone (perhaps) can plainly see that something has changed, but it wasn't the target directly. The opponent has the same quantities of stuff, and that stuff has the same physical positions and conditions. Now, however, he must re-evaluate the possible uses of his stuff (which will likely be diminished in scope).

To say it differently, indirect conflict neither adds to nor takes away from an opponent's tools (whether they be cards, draws, special abilities, units, resources, or whatever). What it does, is put the opponent in a context where his tools are less effective. If he has a knife, I surround him with gunfighters. If he has a racecar, I surround him with bumpy dirt roads. If he has money, I surround him with empty shelves.

Since tic-tac-toe came up in the chat, I'll illustrate with it. Every time I choose a square, it changes the context of play for my opponent. I have not suddenly forced him to use my symbol instead of his own. I have not caused him to forfeit his turn. He has the same tools: one symbol and one turn to claim a location for that symbol. His available options for those tools, though, have been diminished.

Also, I think the two-player situation, in most cases, confuses the issue in at least two ways:

    First, there is no ambiguity about who is intended to be affected. But the purposeful teeter-tottering of the playing field between two players serves to indicate who is affected ("directly to" or "specifically to"), not how.

Second, having only two turns shortens the postponement of any intended effect. But the quickness with which the aforementioned teeter-tottering occurs serves to indicate when the effect is realized ("directly" or "immediately"), not how.

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