Skip to Content
 

Design process in conflict simulations vs Euros

6 replies [Last post]
jwarrend
Offline
Joined: 08/03/2008

In a recent "how do I get started" thread, StephenNewberg offered the following thoughts. I thought they were interesting because they represent the perspective of a "conflict simulation" designer, which isn't often represented here. I thought it would be interesting to discuss the differences in process between conflict simulations (aka wargames) and German-style games.

It's particularly of interest to me right now because I'm in the process of designing a historically based game, and though it won't likely be a conflict simulation, it has similar design concerns.

StephenNewberg wrote:

It has been my observation that focus is very much the key to a successful design and devopment process. During the design phase, that means it is not going to be possible, in any practical way, to get in everything you have read about a particular historical topic.

I tend to agree with this, although I will note that a clever designer can incorporate more than you might initially think possible. The key is to accept the need to abstract certain aspects of your theme, and the overall goal is a tightly integrated game where the various systems lean on each other. What I think one wants to avoid is to have systems or event cards that are included solely for historicity, but jar with the compactness of the overall system or worse, force certain occurences on the players rather than giving them a historical motivation for their decisions.

A trivial example of this is Axis and Allies, which starts pre-Pearl Harbor. The game setup encourages Japan to attack Pearl Harbor, and makes it a plausible and militarily useful move. That's good. If instead there was an event card that said "Pearl Harbor: all ships in Hawaii are destroyed", that would be bad.

One hears the maxim "start small" quite often in German game designing, and while I think there's wisdom to that, I find it doesn't always work for my process. I think it's often easier to whittle out superfluous complexity than it is to add complexity to a simple and functional system, as doing the latter can feel that additions will mar the elegance of the design.

Quote:
Instead, go over your research notes on the event you are trying to depict and decide what you thing the key 2-3 elements were for the event. Was it a major deployment or movement error by one side, or did both sides make such errors? Was it a particularly brilliant plan by one side? Were both sides competent but did some event from outside have an influence that was major? Was one side or the other particularly good at one thing or another, while the other side had other skills or lacks? That sort of thing. Then, concentrate your design on displaying these key elements. That is, make the major mechanisms and systems of the design around the things you want to show about the event.

This is definitely a difference in perspective between our design schools. I would say, as a generalization, that conflict simulation designers are more concerned with occurences, whereas, as David suggests in the other posts, German designers are more concerned with atmosphere. So while a conflict sim designer might worry about "what chain of events occured that brought about such an outcome", a Euro designer will worry much more about "how can my mechanics communicate the right 'feel' for this theme?"

I wrote a little bit about taking a theme into a game concept here. It boiled down to three concerns: who does the player represent in the game world, what are the sources of tension that players are deciding between in their actions, and what are the player's goals, which should be what motivates those decisions.

So for example, in my game about the Thirty Years War, eg, a big motivator for Spain was wanting to reclaim the United Provinces. The game's mechanics will encourage Spain to do that by moving troops from Milan to gain control of the Rhine and use it as a highway to ferry troops from Milan to Brussels, from which to attack the UP. But the key is that the game doesn't force this to happen -- it encourages the player to take this action based on his victory goals and from the most efficient way to achieve them.

Quote:
Briefly, the concept is to find or construct a history of the events the game is to depict from the books you are using for research on the topic, and then step the design through those events. It is essential that an historically oriented game be able to duplicate the events in some rough sort of manner for the scales chosen for the game. If it cannot, they you do not have an historical game, you have an historical fantasy. Or an "alternate' history. A form of Science Fiction, basically. There is nothing at all wrong with this, unless that is not what you wanted. Note please that most designers do not want their design to force the players to a strictly historical result, so I am not suggesting this is the point of storyboarding. Rather, the point is to test the validity of the mechanisms of the design by assuring that if the players make the same moves and actions as happened historically, there is a pretty good chance they will get the historical result. Think of it as a validation check on the design.

One can't help but detect a mild trace of the condescension that one gets the sense that conflict simulation players feel for games that don't recreate history accurately (not that you came across as condescending by any means, but rather, that I think there are conflict simulation players who do feel that way and their viewpoints contain some of the same kind of arguments). I think your take is very reasonable, though: it should at least be possible to recreate the historical events of the game. And, there should probably be boundaries to what could realistically have happened.

In my 30 years war game, for example, Spain could gain access to the Rhine by making a truce with the Elector Palatine. That didn't happen historically, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. They could alternatively make a truce with France. That is probably more of a historical stretch, but it seems like a tough challenge to design a game system that is flexible but also rigid about certain points. I think you don't want to corral the game so much that in the process of preventing ahistorical outcomes, you include rules or systems that aren't interesting from a player standpoint. For example, if I added a rule in my game that says "France and Spain cannot ally". If rules like this don't make the decisions for the players more interesting in some essential way, then it's just an extra rule to remember, and doesn't serve any ultimate purpose.

In some sense, that's one of the essential differences I see in my limited exposure to conflict simulation-type games, namely, that the simulation aspect is more important than the player decision aspect. Not that decisions aren't important in such games, so much as that in German games, the entire game is distilled down to where the player's bases for decision making are clear, and the ramifications of his decisions are transparent. German games are built primarily to provide the players with interesting decisions, and simulation aspects are important only insofar as they make the game more fun or make the decisions more interesting.

I'm hoping to get a chance to try my game out with conflict simulation players at some point. I assume they'll think it's a joke, but it will still be interesting to see...

-Jeff

larienna
larienna's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/28/2008
Design process in conflict simulations vs Euros

For designing war games, I don't see a huge interest has a designer and a player to make an historical war game.

First, it limits the work of the designer because he must do has it was done. For example, in my war game, I was not sure if I was going to play in the real world, if I do then I must create maps according to the terrain layout of our world. So I took a fiction world and made my own maps.

Which lead to another point: research. I don't want to start researching information to make sure the simulation is accurate. If I guaranty an accurate simulation and there is some errors, well some people might not like it.

Finally, making an historical game means that the outcome of the war will generally always be the same. There will be only very light variations from one game to another. You will also have the creation of cliche strategies from the players in some situations. So it comes back to my concept of lacking of variety.

I don't think a historical war game will have an high replay value. The only one I see so far, for the player, is to play a different countries.

Scurra
Scurra's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/11/2008
Re: Design process in conflict simulations vs Euros

jwarrend wrote:
For example, if I added a rule in my game that says "France and Spain cannot ally". If rules like this don't make the decisions for the players more interesting in some essential way, then it's just an extra rule to remember, and doesn't serve any ultimate purpose.

Yes, I think that's probably the essential core of the difference. If you include a specific rule like that, then I think you are defining the role of a designer too strictly, or, rather, you are thinking too much like an author.

I learnt this during my years as a Dungeon Master. Initially, I would spend hours creating a scenario, through which I would carefully steer my players such that they saw all the sights I wanted them to see. Then I began to understand that it was more fun for the players to find their own way through my scenarios. Eventually I reached the point where I would simply place triggers for a whole variety of stories and let the players decide which trigger they wanted to pull, as it were. OK, so this meant that sometimes they didn't see all the sights, but frequently the ones they did see were a lot more impressive ;-)

IOW the transition was from being a storyteller to being a story facilitator. But this also depended upon the growth of the players, from being almost observers to being active participants, to almost becoming co-collaborators. (In passing I will note that this is probably why I never became a writer because I prefer the active contribution of my audience.)

During the design process of a game, it becomes clear relatively quickly at what sort of level you are expecting the players to participate at. Sometimes, it is essential to include rules that prevent ahistorical outcomes in a simulation. But, as Jeff notes, often it is more interesting to structure the whole design to ensure that ahistorical outcomes are less advantageous whilst still permitting them to happen. After all, we're usually playing "What If..." here, not "How It Was..."

OutsideLime
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
Re: Design process in conflict simulations vs Euros

Scurra wrote:
After all, we're usually playing "What If..." here, not "How It Was..."

True enough. In my games of Axis & Allies I always tended to go for the oddball strategy. Plant an Industrial Complex in Brazil. Maybe sail the Japanese Fleet through the Panama Canal to the Atlantic. Africa Push for Russia. You know, oddball stuff. Usually it doesn't work out, but I guess the original A&A was channeled* enough to make every game start to be kinda the same. Yes,making a Pearl Harbour move is good for Japan. Yes, Russia should stack the lines with infantry and wait for Germany to make a mistake. Yes, US should provide support until a foothold in West Africa or France presents itself, and so on.

The 2004 Revised Edition of A&A does a lot to correct that sameness - by changing the territory structure at key hotspots on the map, Larry Harris managed to open up some potential for strategic front-line management with room to retreat, new angles to approach from, and room to make mistakes and still recover. The addition of variable National Advantages also opened up a new plethora of strategic options for players. The game is still channeled, but more satisfyingly - players now have room to manoevre within those channels. This is a very important goal for a historically-themed wargame, I think.

~Josh

*I am proposing channeled as a term to describe a game which guides players down a pathway of actions that help create the "storyline" of the game, not by enforcing motives upon the players, but instead by structuring game elements so that the designer's desired outcomes are (usually) reached through the decisions made organically by the players.

johant
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
Design process in conflict simulations vs Euros

Quote:
German designers are more concerned with atmosphere. So while a conflict sim designer might worry about "what chain of events occured that brought about such an outcome", a Euro designer will worry much more about "how can my mechanics communicate the right 'feel' for this theme?"

Is this really true? I would say its quite the opposite when it comes to asmosphere! I think that there arent so many eurogames that has this "feel", I would rather say that they are more like a puzzle and fairly abstract. As a player you dont have to care about the theme, i guess thats why its so easy to retheme them.

I love eurogames, so dont get me wrong! But the atmosphere as wargames try to capture just isnt there!

//Johan

Scurra
Scurra's picture
Offline
Joined: 09/11/2008
Design process in conflict simulations vs Euros

I don't think Jeff* was suggesting that Eurogame games necessarily always achieve that goal of evoking the right atmosphere, merely that they are more interested in the abstract "feel"rather than the concrete "actuality".

I guess what I'm saying is that we probably agree with you!

In a Eurogame, you can often remove all the thematic element and still have a game that is fun and involving, albeit often considerably less so than before. Simulations (and consims in particular) would generally fail under those conditions ("piece A can move two spaces normally but not there. Why? Because.") Obviously, this is an extreme generalisation but that's what arguments are all about ;-) Actually, thinking about this some more, this rule-of-thumb also explains abstracts, since they're games that are fun and involving** without any pretence of the thematic bit.

For example, in Princes of Florence, the player (representing a renaissance noble) hires professionals to create "works" that bring them money and prestige. This is not an unrealistic representation of how status in that particular time and place was attained, and thus helps the players to understand why certain aspects of the game exist. But it obviously isn't a simulation of the era, as otherwise a whole bunch of other factors would need to be included. And equally, you can play a very tough auction/planning game without caring particularly what the bits are meant to represent. There are enough "why does this happen when I do this? Because" parts that the theme helps to justify, but not so many that the game doesn't work without them.

Of course, "simulation" is something of an equally loose term here. I don't think that people would necessarily dispute that Formula De is a more accurate simulation of racing than, say, Ave Caesar. But they both involve pieces moving and then stopping while everyone else moves... What sort of a simulation is that?!

*and me :-)
**for certain definitions of fun. They're rarely fun for me but others like them.

snak_attack
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
Design process in conflict simulations vs Euros

Here's my take on the core difference between eurogames and sim-esque games... I see euros as typically built around 'clever' mechanics, which may or may not be selected to support a particular theme. The idea is to set up the maximum number of interesting decisions using a minimum of rules. Elegance is the goal.

In games that are trying to simulate a situation, the goal is to put the player in the role of a historical counterpart, whether that's a general, government, president, king, etc. The rules should serve to guide and constrain the player's choices to be similar to choices made by the historical entity (might be a person, or a group of people). The goal is to allow the player to relive the scenario from a particular point of view using a minimum of rules. (when I say historical, I use the term loosely to include fictional settings)

Syndicate content


forum | by Dr. Radut