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Game Design Crisis (II)

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Kreitler
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Joined: 12/31/1969

Thanks everyone for the great posts in the first Game Design Crisis thread http://www.bgdf.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=23902#23902.

To recap: when asked "Is board game design becoming boxed in by a few top selling themes and mechanics," most of you agreed that, while many of the themes and mechanics are "standard", clever combinations still produce games that feel fresh.

Time for my next question. I believe that most video games suffer because they attempt to simulate real worlds and events. This takes huge engineering and artistic effort, and leaves much less time for actual game design. Board games are necessarily more abstract, which allows designers to focus on interesting mechanics.

So, my next question for you all is this: is there any real reason that computers cannot succeed with more table-top style content (ie, be more abstract), and if so, what creates these limits and how can we design around them?

jwalduck
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Joined: 09/06/2011
Game Design Crisis (II)

Computer games have already proved to be very successful with more abstract titles. They have come in the forms of Tetris, Bejewled, Zuma (ant the other Pop-cap games), Gish, etc.

These are much smaller games keeping them in the scope of very small teams. They are also of a size, complexity and price point that they do not warrent shelf space at EB. They thrive on the net however.

I think one of the biggest limiters will always be the market that exists for games of this type. Joe Public wants simulation based computer games (Halo, and Madden), just as he wants roll and move board games (Monopoly). The biggest obstacle is education and mindshare.

Here's my prediction:

I think we will see some true innovation in computer gaming in the coming years. Just as Tetris was Gameboy's killer app I think we will see something huge on the new generation of handheld platforms. It will leverage their wireless networking capability, and be an adictive train or bus ride distraction that network strangers in drop-in drop-out fluid local network.

Anonymous
Game Design Crisis (II)

I think the main problem is that computer games are mostly forms of solitaire, and solitaire games are quite different from multiplayer games.

Multiplayer computer games tend to be designed around the problems of network failures and ad-hoc association. There aren't many board games where players can join or leave at any point. LAN parties are kind of an aberration. Most playing is done by casual players who would otherwise be playing something like solitaire. This may change a little now that broadband is common, but the arbitrary start/stop problem is not going to go away. How do you design a board game like that?

The traditional multiplayer games that are successful online are things like Poker, where the game is a continuing series of short rounds.

larienna
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Game Design Crisis (II)

A computer has the advantage of having memory and a processor. So you could make a board game on a computer with many informations rembered in memory except of usingtokens and allows the computer to make the calculations instead of using dices and tables.

For example, if you take sole old KOEI strategy game on PC and console ( Ex: romance of the 3 kingdom), it works like a board game but you cannot remeber how much food, gold, soldiers each province has and where are all the generals. Another example, Conflict or advance war is a table top type game. But trying to remeber the fuel of each unit in a board game is impossible. So a video game can lead to an enhanced board game which could work. Now, all koei games are semi-action strategy games ( ex: kessen, dynasty warriors ) since the new generation of gamers does not want the old style anymore.

The problems is that the public does not want this because the market can offer more that this. They want impressive, beautifull, and sensassional games. The problem is that there is simply no way to make competition with an video board game. You cannot even make competition on the price since the video game price are already too much low. If for example, an electronic board game was sold around 20-30$ and and a video game around 80$-100$, well the client could say, "I`ll buy a non-transgressive game for one third of the price".

The multi player things is another problem. Board games allows the player to have some social interactions. In Video game, there is some social interaction if you play in the same room ( ex: mario party ) but as soon as you get on the internet, it`s you and the computer. The only difference is that there is a human instead of an AI. Still the social interaction is not the same.

Yogurt
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Joined: 01/09/2009
Game Design Crisis (II)

I think Larienna's nailed it with the social aspect. When I've tried Brettspielwelt or online Settlers, I find I miss the ability to casually chitchat, pause for a few minutes (while shouting from the other room as I pour a drink), read expressions and so forth. Short games on BSW are great fun, but the idea of a long stretch of online Traders of Genoa leaves me cold.

Another consideration is downtime. Few online multiplayer games make you wait while everyone else is taking their turn, but simultaneous play is more rare in boardgames. This comes back to the social aspect, I think. Downtime is much easier to bear when you're with friends.

I think there will eventually be a breakthrough game that combines a real physical boardgame with the capabilities of a computer. It won't involve everyone staring at a laptop screen though.

That said, people are already using laptops and PDAs to help with the tedious parts of boardgaming. See http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist.php3?action=view&listid=9352

Yogurt

larienna
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Game Design Crisis (II)

Another idea that comes into my mind is the play time. Todays video game have an enormous play time.

In the old game, you could play a game for 1/2 an hour to 2 hour and then do something else. If allowed you to fill easily a 1 hour hole in your schedule.

Now, most video games requires at least 30 to 50 hours of game plays. There is no quick game anymore except for sports game or other specific type of games. If you do not design a video game that does not actually have this play time, well the critics will argue that your game does not worth it`s money.

But some times, you do not want to start a long quest or continue a long quest. You just want to shoot some people for a certain time and that`s it. So I think that people takes more time to play video games these days simply because the designers makes the game longer.

Board games are generally always short, and replaying the same game is always interesting. While most video games are played only once and then put them to the garbage and play something else.

Zzzzz
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Joined: 06/20/2008
Game Design Crisis (II)

Yes I agree that most games (video or table top) are designed with a set number of goals and a set of mechanics that allow you to achieve those goals. And many games in both video and table top version restrict a users actions based on the goals and mechanics, but I also say that it is much easier to abstract a table top game that will allow for 'on the fly' modification( or what I will refer to as "grow" the game ).

Not sure if I can explain what I am thinking but, I would like to argue that video games are restricted to a finite set of options on what is possible in a game, and this does not have to be true for a table top game.

By this I mean, a table top game can be designed abstract enough to allow players to "grow" the game over time (take a typical RPG game for instance). A video game RPG just cannot do everything that would be possible in a table top RPG, do to the limitations put on the RPG by those who implement the code or those who draw the pretty animations. Also RPGs allow players to user their imaginations, It would be near impossible to implement an video game RPG that would allow a person to user their entire imagination.

Since I pick RPG above.... think about it, how many RPG video games would allow me to run away from my attacker, by sliding down the hill on my shield? Well unless someone programs that to be valid, it just cant happen. But in the table top version, the game master can decide if it is possible, chances are as long as your are not sliding into a forest of trees that would make it hard to slide away, I could do it in the table top version. This allows the table top game to "grow" on the fly, which is not feasible/possible in a video game (well not until they decide to code up a patch that contains sliding down a hill and add in those pretty animations!).

I guess what I am trying to say is that designers of table top games have the option to create rules that are open ended. Allowing players to determine some things for themselves. And video games just to allow for this possibility (and most likely will not in our life time)

-Dave

Kreitler
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Game Design Crisis (II)

Thank you all for some enlightened respones. Here are some thoughts on your thoughts...

JWalduck -- you're right that studios like PopCap and GameHouse produce many fine abstract games. However, these are more puzzle-like than boardgame-like, which stems from grayscale's point that most computer games are solitaire in nature. Programming good AI for boardgames is no easy task, so it's far simpler to build the difficulty into the rules of a solitaire game.

However, AI techniques have advanced considerably in the last 10 years, and I doubt that this is still a real stumbling block for on-line board games.

Larienna and Yogurt point out that on-line games lack the same social aspect of tabletop games. This is indisputable, but it's also changing. XBox live supports real-time voice chat, and the PS3 will apparently ship with a built-in USB camera. Even without these gadgets, legions of players find enough social interaction in MMORPGs to make otherwise unremarkable games breakthrough sellers. Surely it must be possible to supply enough social interaction to make on-line boardgame play viable, even if it's not preferable to real table-top play.

Zzzzz (I hope I didn't misspell that :-)) points out that computer games don't support open-ended rules sets, which is certainly true, and also not likely to change any time soon. However, a "dumb" board game system which enforced no rules wouldn't have this limitation. Is it possible that an on-line "game parlor" which provided a meeting place and game materials (like sets of "Settlers") might be a viable solution?

Several of you point out that computer games are the way they are because that's what the public wants. That's only partly true. The current hardcore gaming public likes the current crop of games, but they comprise a minority of game players (especially on-line, where your typical consumer is most likely a woman in her mid 30s). We can assume that untapped markets exist, but that publishers -- especially on consoles -- are afraid to reach out to them.

(This could be changing. I know that Microsoft has hired some board and card game designers to help shape the future of XBox live so as to include people outside the hardcore gaming core.)

Finally, you all mentioned the possibility of a coming revolution in handheld and/or console technology. I think JWadluck's insight into wireless networking in the new handhelds is particularly relevant. The inclusion of full voice and video cameras in the upcoming consoles is also directly relevant. Let's assume that this revolution will mostly or completely solve the lack of social interaction in electronic gaming. Let's also assume that the game hardware producers intend to use these advantages to tap previously unreachable markets. This sounds like an open invitation to bring board games back to computers.

In that case, what board game mechanics and themes would migrate well? What limitations of computer hardware would create problems?

Once again, I will start a new thread for this question to help replies stay focused.

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