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Game Design Crisis (III)

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Kreitler
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Continuing the exploration of cross pollination between board games and computer games, we asked the question "What limitations of computers prevents board games from working well as computer games?" (see this thread: http://www.bgdf.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=23973)

The answers: lack of social interaction, lack of interest in the video-game buying public, and the inability to modify rules of play (i.e., no "house rules", no flexibility of action in RPGs, etc).

Assuming that most of these problems will be fixed as voice, video, and wireless technology expand the gaming market to the same people that buy DVDs and cable TV, we're left with the following (hopefully final) question:

What aspects of board gaming work well on computers? Which aspects are limited by hardware?

Examples: computers eliminate long setup times and track large numbers of "fiddly" rules, but small screens make it hard to represent large maps with small pieces.

If you reply, I encourage you to use specific examples: "Princes of Florence would work well because of xxx" or "Settlers of Cataan suffers because of yyy".

I'm looking forward to your thoughts.

dete
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Game Design Crisis (III)

I try to look at the strength and weakness of each.
computer to me seems to be a media that is closely related to
video, so it would be a shame not to use that to your advantage.

Also seems much easier to make a hand eye coordination/
speed/reflex game for a computer game.
I'm thinking Warcraft, Starcraft, Tetris.
Since a computer can organize everything for you, and
keep track of things very well, the more chaotic and complex
the better it seems, like RPG and strategic war games would
be great but they are missing the "action" part.

I guess when it comes down to it though it's
live party vs online party.

Emphyrio
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My thoughts on this keep coming back to a different question, "How can computers make board games better?" Here are a few ways:

- Simplify or eliminate physical management of components and mundane, bookkeeping-type tasks -- shuffling cards, moving counters or pieces around, keeping track of scores, resource management, etc.

- Continuous modeling -- positions, strengths, durations, and probabilities don't have to be expressed in discrete units (well, actually they do, but the units can be almost infinitely small). Square grids, hex grids, zones of control, step reduction, Mage Knight/HeroClix dials, and the ubiquitous one in six chance could all go away.

- Impartial referee for mechanics such as hidden information and simultaneous actions, which board games have a hard time handling well. Nearly every board wargame assumes you have perfect information about the battlefield and perfect control over your units, but a computer can handle the "fog of war" while keeping the players honest.

- Better visualization -- in Evo, you could actually see your dinosaurs evolve; in Metro, you could color-code each player's subway lines. One huge advantage is the ability to view a "board" from different angles, which would let you have truly 3D games. Any game involving air or space combat would benefit from this.

Scurra
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Emphyrio wrote:
Better visualization -- in Evo, you could actually see your dinosaurs evolve; in Metro, you could color-code each player's subway lines.
Indeed, the version of Metro you can find here http://www.bluering.nl/sieuwert/games/metro/index.html does exactly that, and it helps enormously.

I think the best use of a computer in a board-game context is when used with something like the 18xx railway games - or, indeed, any sufficiently complicated economic model - where the information is not intrinsically unknowable but requires a certain amount of calculation that has to be done on a regular basis. Therefore access to that infomation essentially instantly both shortens the playing time and (heaven forfend) can actually improve the play experience! I certainly believe that much more complex economic models within boardgames will be possible in the future as tools like these develop.

But introducing a computer component merely to act as gatekeeper for the hidden elements (cf. Dark Tower or King Arthur) is probably still gimmicky rather than a significant advance.

MPT
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What computers are good at:

If a game is long you can simply save the position and and come back to it at a later date. Civilization is an obvious example of this.

What computers are bad at:

Artificial Intelligence - Even if the game has good AI this can sometimes make the game poor. An example of this is Hearts that comes with Windows. I once played a game where I had a very low score (in the 30's) and one of the other 'players' had a score in the 80's - imagine my surprise when over subsequent hands my score crept up to the 50's but somehow all the other three 'players' ended up in the 90's.

Hedge-o-Matic
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And as a further note on bad AI, what makes so many board games so enjoyable is the social mechanics of bidding, alliances, and diplomacy. Knowing that the AI is just a weighted table of actions makes interacting with the AI on this level far less interesting.

Also, I think the discrete units of boardgames is one of their strengths. The only form of boardgame that really benefits strongly from computerization is the wargame, it seems. And many genres of video game are just evolutionary steps from the turn-based wargame ported from the board concept. RTS and even FPS titles are basically evolved wargames.

larienna
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I'll add some technical element that can show that board game can be better than computer.

1-Need no electricity: don't need any power to play. You can play in the middle of the jungle.

2-No installation : You don't need to install the game on a machine

3-No material conflict : You don't have the problem where the game does not support this or that.

4-Transportability : I can bring my game everywhere I want.

5-No Opacity : I can see and use the content of the game by myself, I don't need a machine to view and use it's content.

Jebbou
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My useless comments:

You can lose bits/tokens or fold cards in board games, which sucks :D

Also,
In pc games, you can have the wrong drivers installed, or lack hardware. Once you are setup though, you can be for a long time without "breaking" or "losing" something in your game (except if your sister overwrites your save game (good thing i have only brothers..)).

JEB

BEWARE: Bits can also be eaten by your dog, or cat. The dog cannot eat your saved game though.

Zzzzz
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Not sure if this was pointed out before, and I am sorry to take a step back, but you cannot forget the players that do not want or dont understand how to use a computer (yes there are people that dont like to use computers! dont forget those that cant afford a computer also). The computer adds additional requirement of understanding how to use a computer, and the player is then required to not only learn the game rules, but how to use the computer UI/interface to play the game. Thus adding additional time required to learn the game.

(Oh and dont forget, another possible limiation, you MAY have to create multiple version of a game to run on various operating systems! Then again one could always argue that a boardgame might not fit on a table, so you need a different table or smaller version of the game board...)

Back to you questions

Quote:

What aspects of board gaming work well on computers?

Anyone know of a game (pick any RPG for example) that requires too many table lookups? Well I think the computer helps very nicely in this case.

Basically I think that computers work well for the data collection and data tracking aspects of many games. The more data involved in a game, the more likely a computer can *help* out with that tedious data issues.

Quote:

Which aspects are limited by hardware?

Though I am sure it exists somewhere (though I dont want to know) any game that involves smell would be pretty hard to implement right now in the computer world.

Along the same lines, and I cant think of an example, I think that any game that requires players to use one of their *senses*, might be pretty hard with current hardware. I am sure there are ways to mimic or simulate the senses, but I just dont think it would be the same as in person.

Zzzzz
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Jebbou wrote:

BEWARE: Bits can also be eaten by your dog, or cat. The dog cannot eat your saved game though.

Well depending on what you mean by *cannot eat*, I am sure there are dog owners that have had a power cable, usb cable, a mouse, an external drive nawed upon to the point of it not being usable, thus *the dog ate* the saved game, at least temporarily! And just like buying a new mouse so you can once again play your saved game again, you can go buy another game bit and play your boardgame again!

zaiga
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A friend of mine had a rabbit who ate through my friend's laptop powercable. Something inside the laptop blew up, smoke came out of the laptop, and my friend lost everything on the harddisk. The rabbit was not hurt. This is a true story.

jwarrend
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Great topic!

Scurra wrote:

But introducing a computer component merely to act as gatekeeper for the hidden elements (cf. Dark Tower or King Arthur) is probably still gimmicky rather than a significant advance.

I think this is the crux of the matter; most of the games we design and play have their inner workings laid bare for the players to see, and this is a huge part of their appeal. What makes board gaming fun is that the parameters of what can happen are more or less known, and subject to the interaction of your decisions with those of the other players and the random factors of the game. Strategy computer games remove most of this from your visibility, but in so doing, they strip much of what makes board gaming interesting. That's not to say there aren't interesting computer games so much as that they are interesting for different reasons; among these, I'd suspect are a much grander scale and a much richer sense of immersion. (of course, there are many other reasons).

I don't think that computers are capable of replacing the board game experience; the tactile and social aspects of gaming are so important that I don't think interacting with a console can take its place. But I do think that it's highly likely that electronic components could add lots of potentiality to designs. I attended a talk yesterday in which the speaker said that flexible displays are going to go commercial in less than 1 year. Picture a game board that is actually a computer screen, and can change during the game. This could revolutionize gaming, and in the long run, possibly even make gaming cheaper (as you could probably do away with some counters or other state-tracking components).

I think that computer and board gaming have much to learn from each other, but I think that they serve different needs, and I expect that crosstalk between them will be minimal for the near future.

-Jeff

lar
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Re: Game Design Crisis (III)

Kreitler wrote:
What aspects of board gaming work well on computers? Which aspects are limited by hardware?

One board game that works very well on the computer for me is Scrabble. It gives me a chance to play a game I enjoy alone and allows me to build up skill when I play more competitively. However, there are some drawbacks about the game, one in particular is the AI. The game can play well enough to beat most people through brute-force methods, but this doesn't give you a taste for reality at the game table. Additionally, you could program various personalities, but you are limited to what the programmer is capable of both perceiving and making a reality.

Thinking about a different path - one thing that works very well in board games is the expected delay in playing while another person is doing something, and that is often achieved because you can look at your resources in the game and make plans on how to best proceed. When I think about this in the x-box, play station world it falls a part. I would think one player would become bored while another player is taking the same amount of time to make a move as they would in a board game. Flip that around, computer games make for a great ability for two players to actually play at the same time - where as board game is almost impossible. Back to your RPG example, Gauntlet is a classic example of where players are fighting, picking up things, doing things and they need each other, but they don't take turns as you would see in a board game.

Hedge-o-Matic
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Another challenge in translating board games to computer is that the componants of a boardgame are isomorphisms for something related to their theme. Cards represent object, monsters, and events, and the number of cards is related to the number of such things in the game world. This is understood intuitively. This token is me. this hand of cards are my skills.

In a computer game, different isomorphisms are used. Icons, sprites, and models represent these things. In translating boardgames to computer, often the physical componants (cards, etc), are translated into sprites or icons, which makes for a double-isomorphism (eg an icon that stands for a card, which stands for a piece of equipment), and, hence, a feeling of greater distance from the events of the boardgame.

To avoid this, many computer designers skip the middleman and put the game elements directly into icon form, and hide the rest (such as not simulating dice roll where the players can see them, etc.). This means the designers have to re-imagine the gameflow, and this loses much of the feel of the original, even assuming a good job is done.

The divide between the two forms is one of intellectual "nearness", rather than greater complexity or fidelity. Any successful translation (Doom: the boardgame, for instance, or, going the other direction, Civilization) requires a careful balancing act that is seemingly often more difficult than designing a new game from scratch.

Kreitler
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Hedge-o-Matic wrote:
In a computer game, different isomorphisms are used. Icons, sprites, and models represent these things. In translating boardgames to computer, often the physical componants (cards, etc), are translated into sprites or icons, which makes for a double-isomorphism (eg an icon that stands for a card, which stands for a piece of equipment), and, hence, a feeling of greater distance from the events of the boardgame.

Hedge, you make many excellent points. However, the "double isomorphism" problem seems to come about from the "let's convert this board game into a video game" mentality. I don't think it's necessarily inherent in video game representation of tabletop-like games (nor do I think you're saying that it is inherent).

Also, I think that a well-developed computer game can increase the "intellectual nearness" of a tabletop-style game in some ways.

Two examples (both older games and among my favorite all-time video games) are M.U.L.E. and Seven Cities of Gold. MULE is virtually a straight-up "mine the resources for profit" game. Originally designed for computers, it could easily be adapted for tabletop play -- but the fact that it was originally designed for computers made for some excellent choices that instantly reduce double-isomorphism and increase intellectual nearness. For example, each turn, players purchase a single plot of land at auction. Rather than using icons that represent bidding chips (or some other indirect purchasing system), players must "buzz in" to claim land before their neighbors (each remaining plot, in order from top-to-bottom of the map, highlights in turn. The first person to "buzz in" on a plot wins it and pays the associated price). Similarly, events take place each turn, and are shown actually happening on the board rather than being read from a card. For example, when space pirates land, their ship descends on the colony, all "smithore" resources drop to zero, and the pirate ship leaves.

Seven Cities of Gold is an "explore the new world" game where players try to maximize their profits, buying men and trade goods and either trading with or plundering native civilizations they encounter as they explore. This is a strictly single player experience but could be adapted for multiplayer play. Like M.U.L.E., it's very "tabletop-esque", but the creators designed it for computerized play and so minized double isopmorphism. A sprite represents your ship, your "goods and men" status displays serve to role of a mini stat board. When you encounter hostile natives, you run around trying to avoid colliding with their sprites in a real-time arcade-inspired action frenzy which would normally be resolved with die rolls or card plays in a tabletop game.

In fact, these games and their kin have all but disappeared from the video game world, but they are the ones I miss most. This shift away from simlified, abstract representations of complex activites is directly responsible for the "design crises" discussed in these threads. Simulations require so much time and money to create that, relative to simpler abstracted games, they are high-risk projects. This forces publishers to reward formulaic titles that are guaranteed to sell a minimum amount to known audiences. This kills creativity and everyone loses (except those 12-25 year-old males who play every first person shooter that features playboy models dressed in battle armor and g-string panties on the box).

So I guess the real question is, why did games like M.U.L.E. and Seven Cities of Gold disappear, and, if the reasons stem from our fascination with technology, is the stage for their return ripe now that technology has effectively destroyed creativity in game design?

K.

Kreitler
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Re: Game Design Crisis (III)

Many good points in your post, Lar.

Providing good AI is indeed a difficult task for any tabletop-style game. The obvious solution is to allow multiple humans to play simultaneously, but this brings with it it's own host of problems. For example, how do I play Scrabble with several people that share a computer? Or, do I really want to play Scrabble with total strangers over the 'Net?

Interestingly, the Dreamcast included a solution to this problem, but it didn't catch on. Dreamcast controllers included a "VMU" -- a detachable memory unit that had it's own LCD screen. Though small, the screen would easily support display of 7 letter tiles, so you could play Scrabble with your friends, gathered around the TV. You could see your letters and they couldn't. I'm not sure that's better than playing on your table, but it beats Internet play (in my opinion, anyway) and supports player socialization.

This idea dovetails with your point that the delay between turns doesn't work well on computers. That's true in many cases, but I think the VMU would allow for a very close simulation of board game behavior with respect to this problem -- I can use my VMU to view my own game status while others are taking their turns.

I know that Microsoft has been investigating traditional board game designs for use with the upcoming XBox 360. I believe they hope to offer more "traditional" game content via XBox live in hopes of snagging more "casual" gamers. We'll see if it works.

Finally, if you want a slightly different computer "Scrabble" fix, try this:

www.sleepinggiantsoftware.com/games/wordwell

It's a bit like Scrabble meets Tetris. Some of the players achieve unbelievable scores.

Cheers,

K.

Infernal
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Game Design Crisis (III)

There are some technological advancements that are occuring that can blure the line between table top gmaeing and computer (or electronic) gameing.

The first is E-Paper. E-Paper looks like paper (although it is made of plastic and other stuff) and it will allow, when conected to a computer, to change the content of the page as if it were a computer monitor (althoug much slower at the moment, so no animation). What is good about E-Paper is that when you disconect it, it will retain the last image on the paper (it stays visable). You could have a board (or cards, or other components) made out of E-Paper and have the content of thouse components de dynamicly changed based on the state of the game.

Other technologies (when used in concert) could vastly change ther board game environment. One such technology is a piece of software called "Total Immersion" (there are other but this is the one I have seen demonstrated), which allows you to take a real world environment and create a 3D modle in a computer in real time (and therefore interact with the virtual environment). By its self this will not be able to be used for board games as the 3D modles still only exist inside the computer and can only be displayed on a monitor.

Which brings me to the second piece of technology that would allow these kinds of programs to be used in board games: The 3D monitor. I recently read in New Scientist that Grundig had developed a system that can convert a standard LCD monito into a 3D monitor, just by having a specificly designed filter pannel that fits onto the monitor face and an image processing software that allows the computer to tralnslte the image into a 3D image when viewed through this filter.

With the 3D monitor and a realtime 3D environment modeler you would be able to project a game world in which the players could "grasp" the 3D objects projected by the monitor and move them as board pieces. Coupled with the internet this could take "board game" to vastly diferent levels.

The E-Paper is the technology I believe that will have the most impact on board gaming over the next 5 years or so. Beyond that, as prices of LCDs drop and software like Total Immersion become available, we will see new areas where we can take the paradigm of the board game and see it translated effectivly into a more electronic environemnt. We live in interesting times...

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