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Grid board design help

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Hambone
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Joined: 12/31/1969

I am needing some help from someone highly intelligent (It has been a long time since I thought about geometry). I am working on adapting my board game to different player counts. I cannot visualize a way to structure my board and I am sure it has been done before or someone here can figure out a great solution.

Right now, I have a 4 player game on a square board, with each player starting in their own corner. The board is a street map. It is a mirror image (four quadrants). Each starting location is equally spaced and has the exact same advantages and disadvantages (intersections, double blocks, unbuildable blocks, players on both sides).

It is pretty easy to change that board to a 2 player game with balanced starting locations (opposite corners). My problem is making a 3 player game. I really want to make 6 starting locations, so I can have a 2, 3, 4, or 6 player game. I am thinking of a 2 sided board, one side being a base 2 game, , the other side a base 3 game. For the life of me, I cannot put together a 6 player, mirror image board with each staring location balanced. The players need to start at the outer rim. The blocks need to be square and most of the streets need to be long and straight. I need to have some streets go completely from one side of the board to the other.

Hopefully you understand what I am trying to do. Let me know if you have some ideas of how I can build my city map into a hexagon with each starting location exactly the same.

seo
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Joined: 07/21/2008
Grid board design help

I'm pretty sure that's not possible. You could match most of your requirements with a hex-based board:


Note that the 4 player configuration, while equal for all, is mirrored for two players compared to the other two. You should take this into account if you have one way streets

But sitting six on a square board, giving them all equal distance to the center of the board will mean that not all players can start at the border:

Or that some will have rivals on both sides, and some just on one:

I think your best bet is to balance the inevitable differences in starting position with one way streets, dead ends, avenues, some diagonal streets that will work as shortcuts, etc. If you manage to give all the players, besides theyr starting positions, equal chances to reach any important place in the board, you'll be fine. But knowing little about how the game works, this is the best I can do now.

Balancing the board it's probably not going to be an easy task, as you need to design your board so that not only the starting positions give equal chances to all the players, but also for the players to perceive the board as fair to all. But I think it's feasible.

Good luck, and keep us posted about the progress of your design. I'll be ready to help you if I can. :-)

Seo

HyveMynd
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Grid board design help

I don't claim to be "intelligent" be any means, but there are only two solutions to make an "even footed" starting position for 6 players (as far as I see it). And both will call for a massive re-design of your board.

1) Turn the board into a hexagon (like you said). That way you can give every player a mirror image board section. But you might have to restructure the entire board to fit with the new hexagon layout.

2) Stick to a square board, but divide it into 6 (or 12 or 18...) roughly equal areas. Then playtest the hell out of it to make sure that no area has any advantages or disadvantages.

Personally I'd go with the hexagon option. I'm partial to hexagons, so of course this is the one that I would gravitate to. They just have so many more options and flexibility in my opinion. I know this doesn't really help, but I just thought that I'd share.

seo
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Grid board design help

I love hexagons, but in this particular game I think a square board would be better, or an irregular shape. Since the board represents the plant of a city, hexes won't feel normal.

There are many cities based on a square grid (Manhattan), and others on more or less caothic grids with squareish grids to divide the areas delimited by the main roads and avenues (Paris, Rome, etc.). But hex based cities are not an easy thing to find.

In a space colony or something like that, an hex based board would be the way to go, definitely.

Seo

Zomulgustar
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Joined: 07/31/2008
Grid board design help

I'm inclined to agree with the posts thus far that a truly symmetric starting position is going to be impossible given your constraints. That said, why not turn that into an advantage? Just because the starting situations aren't identical doesn't mean they can't be fair. If your game uses fine-grained currency, why not auction off six very different starting positions? There are probably other ways you could compensate players for weaker starting locations in a way they will feel fair, but it's hard to be specific knowing so little about your game...

NetWolf
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Grid board design help

Well, you could always try this; the first person chooses their starting location and then moving counter-clockwise, all the players take turns doing the same. The last person to choose a location (Whom would be to the left of the first person to choose) would then immediately start their turn and the sequence of play would reverse and move clockwise. That way the person who chooses the best location will be going last in turn order.

seo
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Joined: 07/21/2008
Grid board design help

That's a nice and elegant solution. :-)

Seo

Hambone
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Grid board design help

Several great ideas. I will see if I can clarify a little more to give you a better understanding. I am looking to make two seperate boards (actually opposite sides of the same board). The one for 2 and 4 players is simple. The one for 3 or 6 players is the one I am having trouble with. I can certainly make it a hexagon, but the grid inside still needs to be squares. I am not adept like Seo at puting pictures together (VERY thought provoking by the way), so I will try to describe it.

I pulled out my Acquire board to play around with examples. Take a grid labeled columns 1-8, rows A-G. Black out 1A, 2A, 1B in the upper left corner, 7A, 8A, , 8B in the upper right, 1F, 1G, 2G in the lower left, and 7G, 8f, 8G in the lower right. Now I have a pseudo hexagon (ok, more like an octogon which is why I need help) and a square grid. Start locations in 3A, 6A, 1D, 8D, 3G, and 6G. This is not perfect, and too small, but close to what I am looking for.

My 4 player board is 8x8 blocks. My 6 player board can have have around 84 city blocks in the playing area. More or less blocks can be balanced by puting in undevelopable blocks (park or plaza). I seem to think that the larger the grid, the easier it is to solve my problem.

To add to the complexity and possibly give you an idea to build on later, I have one other aspect to my board design that I will put together when I solve this problem. I am working on an expandable, modular board. A small square (possibly 6x6) would be a 2 player board on one side and a 3 player board on the other. A larger board (8x8 with a 6x6 hollow center) would fit around the outside to make a 4 player game. The back side of the outer board might be 9x9 or 10x10 to make a 6 player game. Additional centers or outer rings could be used to change the map and add different playing fields.

Thank you all for your suggestions. If what I have makes sense and you have other suggestions, I welcome them all. I may have to settle for good enough, and balance through playtesting and one of the bidding/selecting methods suggested.

One other thing, is there a thread describing how to add pictures to my post? What sofware are people using to chart their ideas?

cedrick
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Grid board design help

I designed a solution I'm relatively happy with. My game is on an 11 x 11 grid with 2, 4 or 6 players. I have the players distributed around the board in a hexagon like so:
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][4][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[1][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][6]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][X][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[5][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][2]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]
[ ][ ][ ][ ][ ][3][ ][ ][ ][ ][ ]

They're all trying to get to the center of the board, but I made it so that the only way to enter the center square is to enter it from the east or west. This works out such that it takes 7 moves to reach the center for each player.

However, the distance between players is, as has been pointed out, impossible to make completely even, even with an even number of players. As my game is set up, you are going to have one neighbor that is closer to you than all the others, but since everyone has the same problem, I call it close enough.

Not sure if this helps you, but it could give you food for thought.

OutsideLime
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Grid board design help

Quote:
One other thing, is there a thread describing how to add pictures to my post?

Check here

~Josh

Hambone
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Grid board design help

Another great suggestion. I will play around with that layout to see if I can make it work.

Thanks for the link Josh.

zircher
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Grid board design help

How about going with a 3x3 grid with a neutral downtown section in the middle?

-1-
---
-2-

1-2
---
-3-

-1-
2-3
-4-

123
---
456

123
4-5
678
--
TAZ

Hedge-o-Matic
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Joined: 07/30/2008
Grid board design help

How about this?

As you can see, there are twelve starting positions, allowing for even spacing between two, three, four, or six players. Or twelve, for that matter. A close examination shows that the intersections are all basically straight four-way intersections, with the exception of the red/blue intersections. these represtent over and underpasses. If you enter a blue pass, you can only turn onto a blue street, and likewise for the red. They act in all ways like two intersections placed on top of one another.

Straight line from one starting point to another is twelve intersections. Complexity can be easily added by placing tokens over intersections, making them straightaways instead. The topology of the map can be altered as you wish to make it look less like a circle, and as long as the vertexes are linked together in the same way, each player would have the exacle same topology.

Hambone
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Grid board design help

You may not believe it after looking at my design below, but all of your previous suggestions helped me work through this. See my sample below and I will explain it. I welcome feedback and suggestions. I have not playtested this and I can already see flaws, but here it goes. One flaw is that I didn't solve my 3 person need.

The squares with an x represent starting locations for 6 players. Players move from block to block, building thier criminal empire. Some buildings require one block, and some more advanced buildings require double blocks. I shaded the double blocks grey for easier identification. The green blocks are unbuildable park/plaza areas. The dark lines represent streets. The red dots represent cops. A cop can see down a street in all directions from the intersection they are in, until their veiw is blocked by either a double block or another cop. A player cannot cross the view of a cop, until they put it on their payroll. After they get it on their payroll, they have the ability to cross its veiw as long as they are not in veiw of a cop not on their payroll (you cannot cross a street between 2 cops unless you pay both salaries). They can also move it to an adjacent intersection, thus repositioning the invisible barrier for another player, or blocking the veiw of a cop not on thier payroll.

Each starting location has 6 buildable blocks before needing to put a cop on their payroll. Each player has a reasonable number of accessable double blocks with similar competition on both sides. Each player has a single cop close-by for thir first bribe and a difficult time to get that first cop into position to seriously limit the movement/development of another player. This gives players an opportunity to build first. (I discovered that it ruins a game when the cop movement restricts early development too soon)

I have many other rules involving income/wages, police investigations, battling for territory, monopolizing vices and such, but the board movement is what I am working on now. Thanks to all that have commented (and those that just read my ramblings)

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