Hippodice

Hi Robin,

Others can answer your questions more intelligently, but I'll hazard a few guesses, having asked similar questions. I probably won't enter this year, but I probably will try to enter next year.

I don't think so, at least not in the sense that you mean. I think it shows, rather, that most of the people who are designing the kinds of games that do well in Hippodice are, in fact, from Europe, which isn't too surprising given that these games are also more popular in Europe than in the US. But Americans can certainly do well. Stephen Glenn, who posts here as "Snoop", has placed in the top 10 in the past, and last year, Brian Leet, who is an American (right?) was a finalist. There's no bias against Americans as far as I know...

Haven't played any of last year's winners, but I think they generally tend to be all manner of "German" -style games. Simple, easy-to-understand rules, playable by either 2 or 4-5 players, in less than 90 minutes, and all the other stuff that typically accompanies German games. A wargame probably would not do well. A roll-and-move game would not do well. A party game would not do well (with some exceptions, I'm sure...). But lots of other kinds of games probably could.

Hasbro, probably not. I don't think anyone knows how to actually get your game looked at by Hasbro; I think it's basically impossible. But if you're looking to publish with a European company, it's a great way to go, as the judges for the finals are all execs from the big German publishing houses. The goal of the contest, in fact, is to bridge the gap between publishers and designers, so in some sense, doing well is probably the best way to get your game looked at by publishers. But of course, it depends who you want to publish with, and what kind of games you're interested in publishing...

Yes. Someone else can correct me, but I believe that both Aladdin's Dragons and Mississippi Queen were Hippodice finalists; Blindes Huhn, Kontor, and Das Kollier were all winners, and all have since been published. There are others that have gone on to be published as well. Check out Mik Svellov's site, some of the names may sound familiar...

http://www.brettboard.dk/lib/award/hip0.htm

I think English is ok. Again, others can comment more intelligently. I think explaining your rules as plainly as you can could mitigate the chances of their being misunderstood, but sure, I guess there's always the risk of that happening. They provide you with a feedback form about your game, from which I guess you could deduce whether your rules had been misunderstood; it would be small consolation if that was what kept you out of the finals, but I suppose at least you'd know.

I think they get about 150 submissions, believe it or not! I may be way off on that.

I don't think there are any formal obligations, although certainly if your game does well, you may get some offers from publishers, and that would be a good thing!

Personally, I'll probably just do the "poor man's patent" of sending the rules to myself in an envelope that I never open. Protecting games is tricky, as I'm sure you're aware if you've read the archives on this group or the BoardGameDesign group, yet I am pretty sure that one doesn't need to worry too much about companies stealing their ideas; these companies see so many games that if they like yours, it's probably easier to pay for it than try to steal it and risk lawsuits or something. Don't let that be the reason you don't enter, certainly!

Good luck!

-Jeff

I'm also planning on entering the contest and I might be able to answer some of your questions. However, I never entered before either, but this I was I was able to gather from various resources on the 'net.

1) Research shows me that virtually all the winners last year were entries from Germany. Do you think this says anything about the competition – as far as ‘foreign’ entries are concerned?

Yes, I think there are simply less competitors from other countries. I believe some people from the USA and France were able to place pretty high in previous contests. It doesn't say anything about quality, rather about quantity.

2) Has anybody seen or played any of the listed winners – in other words, does anybody know what sort of games they were?

I don't believe I have ever played a game of the listed winners, although I'm not sure. Often games get rethemed and renamed when published. I assume most games could be considered "German" games. This might be something simple such as a filler like Coloretto or something more complex like Amun-Re and everything in between. I don't think very simple children games or very complex simulations would do very well. But this is just my opinion, not something based on facts.

3) Has the competition real kudos? I mean, would the overall winner be able to get their game looked at by Hasbro, for example?

Oh yeah! If your game reaches the last round then it will get looked at by people from the industry. For example, Stefan Bruck, director of Alea was on the jury in past years as well as other directors and leaddevelopers from other publishers. There's a good chance your game will get published if it reaches the final round, that's the whole idea of the competition too. For me this is the biggest motivation to enter the competition.

4) Are there any previous winning games that are now successfully in production?

I know for certain that Kontor by Michael Schacht was published and other entries as well, although I don't know exactly which ones.

5) Will others submit by e-mail or hard copy?

I will submit by hard copy because I cannot compress the rules (lavishly illustrated) into a 1 MB attachment.

6) I wonder if the judges speak good English – I’m sure the subtleties of game rules can easily be lost in unsophisticated translation.

I don't know. I assume they do, but I can't be sure. It is just more motivation to make the rules as easy to understand as possible.

7) Has anybody any idea how many submissions they get? In other words, what percentage does the ‘final 50’ represent?

I believe in past years it was about 150. I wouldnt be surprised if there were more then 200 entries this year, as it seems to become more popular and well-known every year.

8) Is anybody aware of any obligations or restrictions imposed on designers regarding their submitted games?

They state this explicitly in their rules PDF (which I cannot seem to open here, so I can't copy paste it), but the document can be found on the Hippodice website.

9) What, if any, protection for your intellectual property will others be taking before submission?

I'll put a copyright symbol with my name next to it in the rules. Other than that, you just have to have some trust. This has been discussed before on this board. For designers it is not worth the time and money to patent a design and you just have to hope that it is not worth the time and effort of publishers to steal your idea.

- Rene Wiersma

Thanks for the input. I think I will have a go at the competition – if nothing else it’s a chance to get games blind tested by an experienced, impartial group!

Good luck!

My personal guess is that a good game will always do well in a competition like this one, so if you're confident in your game, go for it. If it's not what they're looking for, you won't win, but that shouldn't be a deterrent; your game might be the breath of fresh air that the game world needs!

I'm fairly certain that I'm much closer in my guess than you are in yours.
It's certainly less than 200 entries that they typically get.

I suppose this is a possibility, although I would have to question how many good games are people really designing in a given year. For example, this group has 600 members, yet we've only heard 4 so far who will be submitting. I assume that many are like me; we have some games, but they are by no means ready for a formal competition. I view Hippodice not just as a contest, but as a possible route to publication. If a design is not ready for submission to a publisher, it's not ready for Hippodice, at least for me.

I would be careful about assuming that rejection is not a bar to resubmission. I think it's probably poor form to submit the same game year after year. I don't get the sense that this is something they encourage. Common sense would say that it's not fair to waste the judges' time with a rejected game. I suppose if one substantially altered the game, then it would be appropriate to send it off again, but then one would also have to ask why they submitted a game that was in such need of substantial alteration. Although I do have a game or two that I think are technically "ready", I haven't playtested them enough to optimize them, and I think it's better to wait and submit my best work, if a little more time is the only obstacle...

As for publishing routes being closed to mere mortals, I begin to think that perhaps we are talking about different kinds of games (I also have in mind your reference to wanting to publish through Hasbro). I think there's a thread somewhere on this board that lists companies who are actively seeking submissions; among these are Days of Wonder, Plenary Games, Fantasy Flight games, and probably a few others. I think that getting published by Hasbro is indeed impossible, but if you have a good game, I do believe there are enough companies out there that you can find one to publish it. Although, this is by no means easy; your game has to be solid, has to fit into their product line, etc. But if you do your homework and decide that your game would be a good thing for the company (and you have to be sincere about this -- I think a company will know if you are just interested in publishing for publishing's sake), I think many companies are willing to talk to you about your game.

Of course, there's the self-publication route, and there is plenty of expertise here for that as well. I don't personally have interest in that route at this time, so I haven't really investigated it, but it's always a possibility.

So yes, Hippodice is a great way to get a good game looked at by top execs of the big European game companies, but there are other ways to get published with those companies. I don't think it's all doom-and-gloom! But then, I haven't tried submitting my games yet...

-Jeff

I think this is a good point, although it's clear we're working on different timetables; I'm sure I come up with 6-10 ideas a year, but there's no way I can make 6 solid games in a year. The main obstacle for me is playtesting; I just don't playtest regularly enough to take games from prototypes to being "finished" games. I do find that my recent designs seem to be more "solid" than my earlier ones, and that it takes me much less time to come up with a working game engine, but even so, getting that many games done a year is just not what I'm capable of...

That's one way to look at it, I guess...I think game design contest accolades pale in comparison to actually having your games published, so I look at Hippodice more as a route to publication than as an end of itself. If it's an award I'm looking for, I'd prefer the Spiele des Jahres or the Deutsche SpielPries, although I'm sure I'd be happy with placing in the Hippodice as well! But having a Hippodice winner that didn't get published, and didn't improve my chances of getting published, wouldn't seem that great. Conversely, being published and being "disqualified" from entering Hippodice would be just fine...

Here's another point where we are different (and that is ok, I'm just pointing out the difference). I would be happy to be published, but to me, I want to make great games, and I want that more than I want to get published. Or in other words, I'd only submit something to a publisher that I thought was so special that I'd have to buy it had someone else made it. I am not saying my standards are higher than yours, so much as I care less at this point about being the next Knizia or Kramer. Knizia designs games as a more-than-full-time job, and I don't have the desire to make that level of commitment to what I consider a fun hobby. I'd love to come up with some games that are good enough to publish, maybe even several designs. But I'm not at all interested in making this a profession, or making myself a "brand name". I don't think there's anything wrong with someone who is interested in that, I'm just saying that it's not where I'm at. I think the one thing that I would say for my approach is that there's no great level of emotional investment on my end. If I get published, cool, if not, fine. It isn't my life's dream to be a designer. This is a two-edged sword, of course; to really succeed, you have to put your all into something, yet putting your all into a very difficult business like this can still fail to produce a result, potentially leaving you disappointed. To me, I put my all into the game itself, and the publication would be the icing on the cake that was an external confirmation that the game was "good". But for me, the game is the thing.

I don't see it this way at all. First, part of the challenge of being an artist is to know when no further brush strokes are needed. To me, I find that I have a tendency to play "what if" with working games, when I should just leave well enough alone. But I would like my games to be more than playable, more than good; I want them to be superlative. For example, I don't want to just design another "Civ game" like History of the World or Mare Nostrum; I want to design the crowning achievement in playable Civ games. That's not to say I'll succeed, but that it's worth trying, and that this is more important to me than getting a "pretty good" Civ game published. Yet, I think for the subject at hand, taking one's time doesn't necessarily imply permanent stagnation. If I wait a year to submit a Hippodice game, maybe I'll have a whole set of different games by next year that I'll like better, but maybe I'll have a better version of that original game that I can submit. Taking your time, as long as you're consistently making forward progress, need not result in the "regrets" scenario you describe...

But I also look at things not just as a designer, but as a game player. There are a lot of games I can play; what am I adding to that field as a designer? Why would someone want to buy one of my games? What is different or special about it? This is a foundational question; to cross the line from doing this as a fun hobby, to doing this as a published designer, one needs to set aside one's own impulse for self-aggrandizement and look at the situation more from the other end. So it can't be just "I want to be a published designer", but, "I believe the games I'm creating/capable of creating are games that will enhance and improve people's collections and people's gaming experiences." It HAS to be that way, if you want to achieve the goal of being a "name brand" designer.

Just my thoughts...certainly we've strayed from Robin's initial subject, but hopefully in an interesting direction...

-Jeff

A fascinating conversation, albeit badly off-topic... Many of the points raised I can agree with - progression in design, confidence in yourself, aspirations and so on. (For the record, I'm with Matthew on this one: if I don't have to enter Hippodice next year, it's because I'll be published, not because I won't have a game to enter :))

I don't think anyone merely wants a " pretty good" game to be published - they all want the best they can do (even James Ernest subscribes to that philosophy, albeit in a slightly skewed fashion!) But everyone also draws their lines in different places. I mean, Seyforth had to stop tweaking Puerto Rico at some point - which is why there are still on-going debates about the costs of some of the buildings :)

At the moment I'm having a good time, designing games, playtesting them and changing or abandoning as required. As a hobby I couldn't really ask for anything more. If I was trying to make a living at it, then the criteria would doubtless be very different.

Arghh! I hate this stupid editor! I just selected my text and meant to hit ctrl-c to copy it, but instead just hit c, and since there's no undo, I lost everything!

Anyway, Matthew, I can't recreate my full reply, but my bottom line was that we seem to agree in our QC standards, but our underlying approach is different. I see games more as a craft than an art, in the same way chair-making is a craft while painting is an art. There is an additional level of functionality inherent to a craft, and so they are different.

But more to the point, I think you see yourself as an artist and see games as a vehicle for you to share some part of yourself with the world. I see a bigger divorce between myself and my games; I think the game, in some sense, takes on a life of its own, and if I have developed a good game, I'll try to publish it. But I couldn't say in advance "I want to be a regularly published designer", since I evaluate my games one at a time, and only would send those off that seemed to belong in the market anyway. Maybe I would say "I want to be good enough at designing that all of my games are worth publishing", and maybe that's sort of what you're saying as well. But I do think we're looking at it differently, though it isn't a bad thing.

I don't think I'll try to recreate the rest of my post. My apologies. But anyway, thanks again for an interesting conversation!

-Jeff

Weird...it works now, but it didn't when I was composing my last message. I tried, and nothing came back. Oh well, thanks for the info!

And I think we would have to agree to differ here, because IMO "that way madness lies..." :) In general I find that if I take that sort of view of a design, I end up with a different game, which somewhat undermines the exercise (and by "different" I mean radically different, not just a tweaked variant.)

But it depends on what your goals are for the game. First, let me again emphasize my use of the word "think" above -- I don't necessarily try to playtest 50 different versions of a game, but I certainly do try to think how the game might go with a totally different system here or there.

That said, it depends on the scope of the game. Take, for example, my Civ game. I don't anticipate making too many Civ games during my life; this might be the only one. So I want it to be "perfect". In the previous iteration, I had a combat system that worked ok, but it needed some spicing up. It was too rock-paper-scissors, and too dependent on luck of the draw with respect to what cards you drew. The new system I've described and worked through here is a much better fit, and also served as a springboard for me to overhaul a few other systems as well. So, I think it was worth going through the mental excercise of overhauling that system, even though none of the playtesters ever particularly complained about the old system.

I've thought of other, more sweeping changes to that game, as well; I can't really say where the game will end up, although I convinced myself that the current game is good enough to playtest (happening this evening!) rather than trying another major overhaul. But I'm never afraid to overhaul a game, as long as I can convince myself that a change will move the game forward towards whatever design goals I've set out to achieve...

Getting back to the Hippodice contest itself, I have a couple of quetions for anyone who has been involved in this process in the past:

1) Does Hippodice acknowledge receipt of entries?

and

2) If a design entry is one of the 50 selected to be tested, when does Hippodice let the designer know?

Thanks
Benedict

While I sure don't have the definitive answer for you I did get an e-mail reply for each of the two games I entered. I didn't wait till the last day or anything though to submit them. The first was sent in early October and the second a couple weeks later. If you were close to the deadline perhaps they were/are a bit too swamped with entries which they are currently weeding through to respond.

Then again, I don't see the harm in sending a followup note requesting confirmation that they did indeed receive your submission.

- Nick

I emailed them yesterday and received a message back stating that, "No, we are not sending confirmation of incoming submissions on a regular
basis, only on request. We prefer to do not though we do understand your
motion to get one."

They then proceeded to graciously say that my submission had arrived.

I did receive a reply about my entry - but only because the pdf I sent turned out to be unreadable... annoying!

I can understand if they have 150-200 entries that they don't reply to everyone.

Good luck to everyone at BGDF who submitted a game!

Benedict

Well I'm feeling happy as both of my entries are through to the last 50.

Not that that means anything (beyond a slight panic as I realise that I have to get a proper prototype finished!) but making it that far is good enough for me...

Cool, good luck to you all!