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How long is too long?

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Wed, 08/10/2005 - 13:36

Caliani

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Joined: 12/31/1969

Did some searching in the forums and couldn't really find anything on this topic, but I apologize if I missed a post.

I'm working on a strategy game along the lines of chess/checkers where the gist is to take the other player's pieces (certain ones for the victory conditions that is). My question is, how long could I expect people to have to play the game and still have fun.

While the gameplay is not complex, so far it seems like the game is going to take at least an hour to 90 minutes. I need to playtest again after I made some changes, but that's my best guess. This seems like an awful long time to me... but then again it didn't seem like a long time even when my wife and I hit the two hour mark on our first playtest.

I have some ideas to shorten the game length, but I'm worried that I'll dumb the game down a bit and miss some of the strategy that comes in the latter part of the game.

So, after all that rambling, the question remains: How long is too long for a two player game that vaguely resembles chess?

Bonus points for telling me the proper name for games of this type so I can stop saying "piece taking game that is kinda like chess but not".

Wed, 08/10/2005 - 13:42

#1

onew0rd

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Joined: 12/31/1969

How long is too long?

Personally, that would be too long for my taste. But who knows? If you want to try and shave off some time, maybe make the board (assuming there is one) smaller. Maybe have less starting pieces. I would say, an abstract strategy game (that's what I would call this) for me should be in the 30 minute range for novice players and maybe 60 minutes at most for experiences players who are really into the game and putting alot of though into their turns.

Wed, 08/10/2005 - 14:35

#2

zaiga

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Joined: 12/31/1969

How long is too long?

I have to agree with oneword here. A 2-player abstract shouldn't take much longer than an hour to play, preferably less. This is just my opinion of course.

In addition to oneword's ideas: a way to shorten the game could be to start in the middle, so to speak.

Wed, 08/10/2005 - 14:46

#3

FastLearner

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Joined: 12/31/1969

How long is too long?

"Two-player abstract" is the term I'd use, or "two-player abstract strategy," as suggested above.

The most popular recent two-player abstracts that I know of are Kris Burm's Gipf, Dvonn, Yinsh, and Zertz, all of which play in 30 minutes. I suspect that's a more appealing time frame, by far.

-- Matthew

Wed, 08/10/2005 - 17:01

#4

Caliani

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Joined: 12/31/1969

How long is too long?

"Two Player Abstract Strategy". I like it. Now if I can just come up with a name I can start posting the real info :)

Thank you very much for your input, and pointing me to the games on BGG. I would say my game leans more towards chess than those, but they are in the right genre.

Yes, my ideas for shortening the game are to reduce the number of pieces each player has (currently 40, next try will be 32) and reducing the size of the board. To get the feel I am going for it will have to be both, not either or.

I think I'll con someone into one more playtest (made a few mods that might shave some time off) and then try with reduced pieces/hexes.

Thanks again for the input!

Wed, 08/10/2005 - 23:24

#5

jwalduck

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Joined: 09/06/2011

How long is too long?

Zaiga suggested "starting in the middle". Expanding on this:

If your game has a predictable, optimal set of moves that players take everytime they start a game you could remove this "start-up" period by setting the starting configuratoin of peices to where they would be at the end of this start-up phase, just before the conflict starts.

Example: In a wargame everyone spends their first turn building more units and extending their front line closer to each other. You could just give everyone a starting position that included more units and closer frontlines.

You could call this "starting in the middle". I call it "starting as close to the conflict as you can get".

Thu, 08/11/2005 - 13:10

#6

Anonymous

How long is too long?

I agree that 90 minutes may be a bit too long. I don't think that it needs to play in 30 minutes, but somewhere near 60 minutes would be good.

One thing to keep in mind is that players will typically take about twice as long to play their first game or two as they will once they get the hang of the mechanics and strategies. A few more playtests will get you closer to an estimated time to play. You may find that you don't need to cut too much from the game to get it into the desired time frame.

Sat, 08/20/2005 - 16:45

#7

Anonymous

How long is too long?

I play miniture games a lot and different kinds.

Perhaps the question to put in mind is, what determines the VICTORY CONDITIONS in your game?

In chess, you had to trap the King. That would take from 5 minutes (if Fischer is playing against an 8-year old) to several hours.

In one game I play, each piece has a value point and have a capture-the-flag conditions. The game can be played in standard, official 50 minutes, or 90, or whatever. Since the victory conditions is determine on how-many-kill-points and who-has-the-most-flag captured, you can SET and LIMIT the time the game is played.

Personally, a 30-60 minute play would be convenient.

My take.

Sat, 08/20/2005 - 19:02

#8

Hedge-o-Matic

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How long is too long?

Frankly, I think that people have been giving too much thought to how long games take to play. While Twilight Imperium might get less play due to its length (3+ hours) than, say, Brawl (less than a minute), the important thing is to keep the game interesting for its entire length.

I tend to think of abstracts as being in three clases: additive, subtractive, and steady. Subtractive games have the pieces on the board at the start, and these get whittled away during the game. Chess is the obvious example. Your game, since you've been comparing it to Chess, sounds subtractive.

Basically, however, I'd say that you want to keep your game with the smallest board and fewest pieces that allow the experience you want. Small equals intensity, and doesn't necessarily limit complexity. There's a reason that, after over a thousand years, Chess only has 64 squares, eight pawns to a side, and two of each peice except the single king and queen. I've seen all sorts of so-called varients that give players more of everything, and claim a strategic coup. But can I name any of them? No, becuase they were uniformly inferior.

Don't worry about your timeframe unless your players are getting bored. Think of focusing the game, rather than shortening it. This, for me, is what makes designing abstract strategy games so enjoyable.

Fri, 09/09/2005 - 15:46

#9

Boisegamer2001

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How long is too long?

The amount of time the players are willing to play may be proportional to the payoff the game gives to the winner without a runaway leader effect. i.e. Drama vs. Decisiveness in
http://www.thegamesjournal.com/articles/DefiningtheAbstract.shtml

Therefore a long game like a long setup for a joke must lead to a fantastic ending, so it would be worth the wait. The simpler or more focused the game is the less “setup” is needed for the “punch” and seem more fun to the players. Examples: Zertz, Cathedral, Othello, or Twixt.

Games that have this punch (in my mind at least) and are like chess are: Traverse (a good checkers-like game where each piece moves different), Terrace (not my favorite game, seems too long but they did revise the length but I have not played the revision), I am sure that there are others but I can’t think of them right now.

BG2001

Fri, 09/09/2005 - 18:44

#10

Hedge-o-Matic

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How long is too long?

That's a good analogy, games to jokes. Good thinking.

Wed, 09/14/2005 - 12:03

#11

larienna

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How long is too long?

There is already a thread that talked about this. Here is the address.

http://www.bgdf.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2320

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