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My Post Apocalyptic Theme

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Ska_baron
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Okay guys, I'm thinking up some stuff for small scope, tile-laying (you know, because that hasn't been done before ;)) game where players are surviving factions rebuilding a city.

I was thinking about a set grid and have players lay varying size structures down (vaguely like a Vegas Showdown set up...vaguely). I want to give it more of a cooperative feel at the beginning since all structures will be communal but then also allow players to place survivors to claim control of structures to score points for them.

One thing I'm having trouble with is what would be available to be built as far as structures go? The setting is in "the near future" and probably after a nuclear struggle. I was thinking maybe power stations? Farms? dwellings? Maybe prestigious "palace" type buildings that wouldnt add any utility, but only VPs... I dunno, all ideas at this point, but I'd love for any ideas/feedback on this.

Thanks,
Jon

clapjaws
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You could focus on 'survival' type buildings, meaning a water source, food source, and maybe secondary sources like clothing stores, hardware stores. Maybe the structures could have differing levels of value, depending how scarce/necessary a resource is. How devasted is the area that the game takes place in? Is this an area-control game or resource gathering type game? Or both :)

Ska_baron
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Thanks CJ (as always) for your response...

I want this game to be simple/stream lined and I think it'll be more of an area management kind of game where players are stressed by trying to fit buildings in the grid (while others are doing the same and taking up valuable real estate), so while they probably wont be dealing with the resources that in theory would be produced by the structures.

Also, for the timeframe, it'll be less of a survival game (as if the game were taking place right after an attack), and more of a rebuilding once certain groups have formed and regained enough strength/resources to do so. This way I hope to make it more of a cooperative game at first (though obviously players will be helping everyone, but still strategically placing buildings to help them later on) and then more of an all out dash towards the end...

I kinda like the idea of scaling the value based on necessity...hmmm...

OutsideLime
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Quote:
You could focus on 'survival' type buildings, meaning a water source, food source, and maybe secondary sources like clothing stores, hardware stores.

Agreed, though what is the scale of the game, in size and in time? I assume that 1 pawn (if you even use them) will represent a group, not an individual person.
• You can keep things immediate (each turn represents a few minutes or hours) and the game is a turf-war-style scramble for immediate control. Buildings like Police Station (use to hold prisoners?) , Car Dealership (get vehicles), Hardware Store (weapons and tools), Grocery Store (food for your faction) would come into play.
• Turns can represent a longer period (days or weeks or months) and the game is more of a limited-civilization-builder. Important building types might be School (educate your people) Factory (create goods) Farm (grow food), other large-scale stuff.

Personally I would lean towards the first option. The idea of groups of desperate survivors banding together and forming factions, quarreling to stay alive and protect themselves, and ensure their own survival, seems the most fun.

Setting up the blast area. Two fun options might be:

1) It was one big nuke. Structures (tiles) are laid down randomly in a fixed concentric pattern. Tiles at the centre of the pattern (and the structures on them) are at the epicentre of the blast, and are therefore most destroyed and irradiated. Moving outward from the centre, radiation is less severe and assets are in better shape. Perhaps as game rounds go on, radiation levels start to decrease, "unlocking" structures that were formerly too hazardous to annex.

2) The city was destroyed in an unpredictable random fashion (small cluster-bombs, whatever). Randomly lay the tiles down into the fixed pattern, then randomly place "devastation chits", which show a number indicated how destroyed the structure is, onto each tile. Structures are capable of bestowing varying degrees of benefit to the player who controls them based on what level of repair they're at. Perhaps structures could be repaired, raising their benefits... this could spark an interesting strategic choice for the player at startgame - hurry to claim buildings in good shape, or hurry to claim buildings that will bestow good benefits once they have been repaired...

Try this on for size: Each player starts with only a small band of pawns of their colour. They move about the board and encounter neutral pawns, which have varying degrees of hostility. These neutral pawns can be ran away from, killed, chased away, or charmed... this is how you build your faction. Perhaps all charmed neutral pawns have a degree of "loyalty." You can increase loyalty by improving your faction conditions... control schools, assets, those "status" buildings you mentioned. Pawns of questionable loyalty can be convinced to switch allegiances. If balanced properly, this function could organically "guide" players through an appropriately-escalating chain of events.

Think about this though... why are players competing? Wouldn't one option for these nuke survivors be to band together and create one big harmonious society? I guess the endgame condition (when you develop it) will fill in this thematic need.

Elements of any of these ideas could be mixed with those from the others. Keep hacking at this game while it's fresh in your mind, it's ripe with potential. As you can see, it's got me thinking!

~Josh

Nestalawe
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My Post Apocalyptic Theme

My first question from your original post was also going to be about timescale, but Lime bet me to it.

If you wanted to keep to a post-apocalyptic theme, then one option would be to go for a longer time-frame, where the game would go through various phases -

- First the players are working together to build up the essential survival structures - water, food, shelter etc
- Once these have been set up then the players can go through an 'improvement' phase, where things start getting more competitive
- Then players can start getting real competitive, and trying to also get 'Prestige' type buildings etc.

Also though, there should be 'outside' threats - roving gangs of chainsaw weilding biker gangs - Mutant Rampaging Farm Animals of Monstrous Size - fallout storms etc. Players should be able to pitch in and help defend eachother to various degrees.

Also wondering where the conflict lies - will players be trying to build up the city (community) harmoniously or will they be fighting against eachother?

OutsideLime
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Quote:
Also wondering where the conflict lies - will players be trying to build up the city (community) harmoniously or will they be fighting against each other?

I wouldn't go with total cooperative. Game-systems that can be "played against" by a group of players trying to defeat it together usually feel to me like a chain of random (or scripted, or random within a scripted structure) events that unfold without much reaction to what the players are doing. Generating a decent reactive game system that really responds to the players' actions usually means that the bulk of the game mechanics are focused around the maintenance of that system. Typically this bogs down a game in complexity. (Solo games fail less at this because it's OK for that system to be the bulk of the game - with solo games, that reactive game system IS the game.)

This could function as an indirect-competition game where players are fighting the environment (and the chainsaw-wielding bikers with overgrown mutant farm animals on leashes) to be the first to get "stable". In this way the players compete with each other by securing map resources first, eg water, security, power.

However, it seems to me that this motivation would naturally lead to factions directly fighting with each other on the board. I mean, just because you snuck into the Hospital first doesn't mean I won't walk in and push you out if I'm strong enough to do so. In the post-nuke world it just seems appropriate - no law, no order, might is right. Perhaps, if this is a more epic-scale game, as stability grows, lawlessness becomes less forgiveable.

~Josh

Ska_baron
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Hmmm... This might spilt into two games for me =)

Thanks to both of you, Josh and Toby!

But originally I was abstracting the game a bit and was thinking of having players place buildings of different sizes (1x1 up to maybe 3x3 or 3x4) with the idea that players are controlling various groups of survivors who are coming together to rebuild where this city once stood. So they would be cooperating in the beginning by benefiting from these communal buildings... but they'll also have survivor pawns/tokens that they can place to claim buildings as their own (and score VP) as they see which are in better places and such.

And so I guess I'm thinking somewhere in between the small scale, real time game and the epic civ type game...

My original thought was of a simpler, more abstract game right now, but on that note: I ALSO really like the idea of a survival-type post apoc game too =)

Jonathan

Nestalawe
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Ska_baron wrote:

My original thought was of a simpler, more abstract game right now, but on that note: I ALSO really like the idea of a survival-type post apoc game too =)

Heh, yeah, thats the danger of exploring ideas in the forum, its easy to get sidetracked into versions of the idea that you weren't intending ;)

Ahh, so what was the original question?

Ska_baron
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Quote:
Heh, yeah, thats the danger of exploring ideas in the forum, its easy to get sidetracked into versions of the idea that you weren't intending ;)

Dangerous...Great... Same thing =)

Quote:
Ahh, so what was the original question?

Building types! I kinda like the upgrade ideas too...
Here's some rough stuff I've got:

power generator (1x1): needed for some structures to be used
housing (2x2/2x3): set the limits your max # of survivors (which I'm thinking will be used to show ownership of a building)
farm (2x2/3x3): maybe just basic points because it seems like something that would be the most useful
trading post (2x2): no clue! =)

maybe some of those "prestige" buildings I alluded to-
Parks (1x2/2x2): lots of points, but maybe tough to play because thematically, these surviors would only be building something like this once there was some stability.

So, maybe there'll be 3 categories of buildings (probably only 3 diff sizes too then) in face down stacks. Basic, Advanced, and Prestige buildings. Maybe flip two tiles up from each stack and players can either choose to take one of them or the top, face down card and place it. To choose a basic structure cost 1, to choose an Advanced would cost 3, and prestige would cost 5. (Suggestions welcome for what "currency" I could use)
A player would score initial points for laying down a TYPE of building and if they choose not to place a survivor (from a limited supply) on it then it is communal and someone on a later turn could claim it and upgrade it and score points at the very end based on who individually owns the best stuff.

EXAMPLE:
Advanced buildings are 2x2 and Farms and Housing are two different TYPES in this CATEGORY. Farms are worth 3 points and Housing - 2 points.

Hmm, this really doesnt look like it'd be that cooperative at the start. Not sure if that's a problem, seeing as how I really like what I just wrote! Suggestions, comments, recipies, and marriage propsals welcome!

Jon

Nestalawe
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Alrighty then, also might be good to think about the setting a bit more.

So you have a post-apocalyptic theme, but are the players in the ruins of a city? Or a small town? In the middle of nowhere?

If they are in the ruins of a city, then there will be all sorts of useful stuff hanging aroung, things they can jerry-rig etc etc. If they are in a small town, or the middle of nowhere, they will have different things at their disposal.

I would suggest having Basic stuff cover their basic needs - Food, Water, Housing, Clothing. Then your more advanced stuff would be enhancers for the Basic stuff (better food, better housing etc) as well as more interesting things you have to think about, such as security and entertainment.

I would even push towards having severals stages in the game that 'seamlessly' mesh into one another. Thus you would have the starting stage of the game where players are getting to grips with things and just scrabbling to survive. Then, when a certain number of buildings are up, or the right number of different buildings are up, people can relax a bit and start building enhancer things, upping their security etc, whatever. Maybe there is even a negative built in effect where once players have built up enough, Something Bad Happens which causes the players to scrabble to gain or keep control of certain buildings etc.

Also think about what resources players will have access to or need. Do they access their own supply of tiles or draw from a common pool? What do players 'claiming control' actually represent? What do the players represent? Different communities in the same place? Different families? Are players all the same or do they have access to different roles that means players must work together to get stuff done?

Ook, rambling. Ook.

clapjaws
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Quote:
To choose a basic structure cost 1, to choose an Advanced would cost 3, and prestige would cost 5. (Suggestions welcome for what "currency" I could use)

How about just giving them a menu of actions they can take per turn, calling them action points or "tribe" points - as done with Tikal and such games? You are basically just spending time and effort here, not an actual currency, in my opinion.

This thread is very interesting - sounds like you could make a couple of different games from all this....

Are you planning on having the tile placing done free-form - as in Carcassonne? Or will they have to fit them into a city-grid, with limitations based on what's already in play - kinda like fitting your buildings in your playmat for Princes of Florence? Or something else...?

How about an action point to 'add to your tribe count' - some abstract baby-making? Will there be a chance that some buildings trigger more contamination, or even disease - wiping out some of your tribe?

clapjaws
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I meant to add this to the previous post:

How about having special types of pawns? - such as a tinker/mechanic or a green-thumb type person. Folks with specialized skills could be worth more in certain types of buildings. Having a pawn that's good with their hands inside a hardware store, or a machine-shop, could be a boost to the types of improvements you can do, or could quicken (lessen the cost) of recovering future buildings, etc. The green thumb could aid with new tribesmen production, or at least help pay for any upkeep costs associated with feeding your pawns. Any you need someone that knows how to harness that power coming from the generators you just found...

Enough rambling, at least for now! :)

Nestalawe
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clapjaws wrote:

How about an action point to 'add to your tribe count' - some abstract baby-making? Will there be a chance that some buildings trigger more contamination, or even disease - wiping out some of your tribe?

Yeah... Dangerous times - there should be some sort of balancing act that players must be careful with, lest things start failing. Players then need to work together to keep a careful balance going, but at the same time players could do something that tips the balance, making Bad Things happen, but maybe that player had already set up safeguards for themselves so they don't get hit so bad. Kinda depends on how brutal you want the game to be.

An example of this could be that there is a limited water supply, and the population of the settlement is regulated to some degree by this. The players could be cruising along nicely enough, dah dee dah, waving to their neighbours and sharing cups of sugar etc. Then player X plays a Fountain tile and claims it, which drains a big part of the water supply, which is detrimental to all the players, but player X had previously claimed control of most of the water tiles as well, so doesn't suffer so much. That kinda thing.

But heh, you wanted to keep this simple right?

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