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Narrative mechanics

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TheReluctantGeneral
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Narrative mechanics

It seems that alot of the disagreement that has arisen here is due to different definitions of the word 'narrative'.

I am using the word in it's literary sense. Jeff, you seem to have assigned the term a looser definition, a series of causally linked events which when looked at as a whole 'happen' to make sense as a story.

My objections are kind of linked to the feeling I get when playing a strategy game against a computer opponent. I start thinking what's the point of this - I'm playing an unthinking machine - it cares not whether I win or loose. Hence I prefer face to face games, or computer moderated games with human opponents.

Your randomly arranged events would not feel like a narrative (using my definition) to me, since I as a player know they have been unthinkingly arranged by the 'machine' which is the game engine. On the first play of 221 baker street for example, you get a different feeling - that you are particpating in a sequence of events which has been arranged in very specific order, by a human adversary (the author or game designer).

Having said that, I think that what you are aiming for is sill unique and quite a challenge.

On the subject of computers, I think you need two. Firstly, you need a 'paper computer, something like the 4-way page flipper I suggested that is responsible for keeping track of game state. (you might be better off actually with some scheme of interlocking paper dials which you turn until they show the right values for the game variables, which then gives you a lookup reference).

Secondly, I think you as the game designer will need a piece of software to generate a large number of random arrangements of events which fit the causal constraints you require. This would be an easy brute force programming task. Simply generate a huge number completely random sequences then reject all of them that do not fit the causal constraints. There would be more intelligent implementations (particularly a genetic algorithm), but you could probably get away with something this simple.

This program you write 'compiles' the 'paper computer program' many instances of it - by auto-generating say a large number of the disks referred to above (each disk can be thought of like a program, a set of instructions executed by the paper computer). Then to play a game players select at random some of the disks, pop them into the paper computer and off they go.

jwarrend
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Joined: 08/03/2008
Narrative mechanics

TheReluctantGeneral wrote:

I am using the word in it's literary sense. Jeff, you seem to have assigned the term a looser definition, a series of causally linked events which when looked at as a whole 'happen' to make sense as a story.

I hope I've been pretty precise about what it is that I'm aiming for, but if my terminology has been a source of confusion, then I apologize. Maybe I should try to write a "sample story" that could unfold during the course of the game to bring something more concrete to the discussion.

Here's an example, in broad strokes: you show up at a house at the invitation of a mysterious host. Weird things start happening, and as you investigate the occurences, you learn things -- about the house, about the master, about why you have been brought to the house, about what you're supposed to be doing. As the game proceeds, you shift from making these kind of discoveries to attempting to fulfill your goal, leading up a climactic showdown.

The whole point is that I don't want the events to "look like" a story in retrospect. I'm trying to come up with a way to have the occurences "fit together" to form a story. To do that, I'm trying to develop ways of causing the story to "lock in" along certain story elements, and to "propel forward" at certain key points.

But yes, it's not a "story" in the literal sense; you're not reading a book or even playing a choose-your-own adventure gamebook. The point is to create a board game that offers a player experience in which players feel like they are participating in a rich story that unfolds before them as they play the game. I can't think of any games that I've played in which this happens. I haven't played "Tales of the Arabian Nights" but it sounds like it might be the closest thing.

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Your randomly arranged events would not feel like a narrative (using my definition) to me, since I as a player know they have been unthinkingly arranged by the 'machine' which is the game engine.

That doesn't seem like a legitimate objection to me; it sounds as though you'd be making a prior committment not to like the game, rather than just evaluating it on its merits. It's like saying "I will never read a story written by a computer, since I know the computer can't write a story", without actually reading the story and finding out. If the story holds together and works, I don't see what the problem would be.

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On the first play of 221 baker street for example, you get a different feeling - that you are particpating in a sequence of events which has been arranged in very specific order, by a human adversary (the author or game designer).

Have you played 221B Baker St? I don't get that feeling when I play the game, and it's exactly the problem this is looking to address. You do feel that there's a coherent story that you are trying to unravel, but you don't feel like a part of that story. The story is a static thing that you look at pieces of, and try to see if you can assemble the whole story from seeing only parts of it. I'm looking for something that actually gives the feeling of participating in a story; it would unfold as the game progress, it would respond to the choices you make. I don't want to knock the game, because it's a great achievement, but I think there's more that can be done.

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Secondly, I think you as the game designer will need a piece of software to generate a large number of random arrangements of events which fit the causal constraints you require. This would be an easy brute force programming task. Simply generate a huge number completely random sequences then reject all of them that do not fit the causal constraints. There would be more intelligent implementations (particularly a genetic algorithm), but you could probably get away with something this simple.

Yes, this is something like the direction my other game project is taking. In that game, it's very important that everything be arranged in a very specific way, but the computer "story generator" still injects quite a bit of flexibility.

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This program you write 'compiles' the 'paper computer program' many instances of it - by auto-generating say a large number of the disks referred to above (each disk can be thought of like a program, a set of instructions executed by the paper computer). Then to play a game players select at random some of the disks, pop them into the paper computer and off they go.

Hmm, this is worth thinking about some more; at a minimum, these "disks" (or whatever) might at least offer a way to keep the story line straight once it "locks in" along a particular path. That, I think, is what I really need; a component that gets introduced once players find out some basic facts about their story, to forbid contradictory revelations from subsequently being made.

-Jeff

TheReluctantGeneral
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Narrative mechanics

jwarrend wrote:

I hope I've been pretty precise about what it is that I'm aiming for

You were. I just wasn’t sure whether we agreed on where it was going to get you. Now I think we agree it gets you where you want, but not what I understand as a narrative.

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Here's an example, in broad strokes

So do players, with each re-playing, know why ‘they have been brought to the house’ due to previous plays of the game, or does this aspect also change?

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The whole point is that I don't want the events to "look like" a story in retrospect. I'm trying to come up with a way to have the occurences "fit together" to form a story. To do that, I'm trying to develop ways of causing the story to "lock in" along certain story elements, and to "propel forward" at certain key points.

Perhaps the idea of plots and sub-plots could help here. Again, this goes back to my point about story divergence/convergence. Game generated sub plots could arise at key narrative milestones, with each sub plot wrapping up by the time the next narrative milestone is reached (for ‘narrative here I really mean ‘main plot’).

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That doesn't seem like a legitimate objection to me; it sounds as though you'd be making a prior committment not to like the game, rather than just evaluating it on its merits. It's like saying "I will never read a story written by a computer, since I know the computer can't write a story", without actually reading the story and finding out. If the story holds together and works, I don't see what the problem would be.

If the story really worked then I would have no problem. But I am sceptical that you could achieve this. An example: I would expect a murder-mystery-suspense story line to have a cool ‘twist’ that was unexpected and made me question my assumptions about the plot to that point. If your engine could generate this type of plot device that I would expect in such a narrative, then my objection would disappear. But I don’t think computers, paper or silicon can do this just yet…

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Have you played 221B Baker St?

Busted! No I haven’t. I was just being lazy and hanging my response of the previous post. Sorry for that.

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I don't get that feeling when I play the game, and it's exactly the problem this is looking to address. You do feel that there's a coherent story that you are trying to unravel, but you don't feel like a part of that story.

For what it’s worth, this is a problem that my own current project discussed in the CCG/CYOA thread is trying to deal with.

I wish you a lot of luck. Hopefully we can both benefit from our mutual travails. Are you thinking about putting this project back on the front burner?

jwarrend
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Joined: 08/03/2008
Narrative mechanics

TheReluctantGeneral wrote:
Now I think we agree it gets you where you want, but not what I understand as a narrative.

Careful, though; just because a story may not meet someone's preferences doesn't mean that it doesn't qualify as a narrative. Obviously, the end goal will be to have the "storyline" assembled by the game to be interesting and somewhat engaging, but as a starting point, I'll be pleased if it's simply coherent and has a roughly-defined beginning, middle, and end.

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So do players, with each re-playing, know why ‘they have been brought to the house’ due to previous plays of the game, or does this aspect also change?

I think that the game will have a broad overarching structure that will be roughly invariant from game to game. The structure I mentioned before may be a starting point for that. But I do expect that the particulars will vary from playing to playing. I don't think that any of the "answers" will be knowable simply by replaying the game. Replay is the goal here! Anything that could be learned after one playing and applied in future playings will be revealed at the very outset of the game.

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Perhaps the idea of plots and sub-plots could help here. Again, this goes back to my point about story divergence/convergence. Game generated sub plots could arise at key narrative milestones, with each sub plot wrapping up by the time the next narrative milestone is reached (for ‘narrative here I really mean ‘main plot’).

Yes, "plot" may be a more useful term than "narrative", now that you mention it, since the game will likely only engage the storyline at a somewhat high level. I envision somewhat descriptive paragraphs, but nothing like "Johnny was nervous; he could feel the hairs on his neck stand on end. He tried to open the door, but the blood on his hands made it impossible to turn the handle, etc".

I like the idea of plots/subplots as a vehicle for moving the narrative forward between "milestones". I'll have to think about how such an idea could be fit into my concept of revelations that arise from connections between events, and of transitions between acts that occur when a critical mass of revelations have been reached.

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If the story really worked then I would have no problem. But I am sceptical that you could achieve this.

Me too!

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An example: I would expect a murder-mystery-suspense story line to have a cool ‘twist’ that was unexpected and made me question my assumptions about the plot to that point. If your engine could generate this type of plot device that I would expect in such a narrative, then my objection would disappear. But I don’t think computers, paper or silicon can do this just yet…

Well, again, I don't want to let the perfect be the enemy of the good; if the game can put together a narrative at all, I'll be pleased as punch. I think only after that happens should particular narrative devices like a "plot twist" be sought.

I do suspect such a thing could be achieved, but you also have to keep in mind that just assembling the storyline by itself will take the players some time. Plot twists could add more length to the game then they add game to the game, if you know what I mean.

That said, I suspect a way to do this might be to have each player have his own paragraph book (as previously mentioned), and have some information that is kept secret from the other players. This could organically generate the plot twists you're looking for and the role-playing that David is looking for. You thought Van Helsing was your ally in stopping the count but really, it turns out that he's in league with the vile creature and is working against you! Stuff like that could be possible with a system that handles how players transmit information between one another.

One idea I have is that the structure of the game should have several key phases, eg "Noon", "Dinner", "Twilight", "Midnight". All players will assemble in the dining room for dinner each night, and may interact freely as well as experience group events at that time, but for the other three phases, the players are all alone, and only experience things together or interact if they end up in the same room together (or if they choose to stay together).

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For what it’s worth, this is a problem that my own current project discussed in the CCG/CYOA thread is trying to deal with.

Right, and I think you're off to a very good start with how to handle that. I think it will work very well to create the feeling that "there is a larger world that will influence the game state in which the players will be engaged".

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I wish you a lot of luck. Hopefully we can both benefit from our mutual travails. Are you thinking about putting this project back on the front burner?

Not sure yet; I've certainly started thinking about it again after a long hiatus, so I thank you for reenergizing my interest in it! My guess is that this is a game that I'll work on in bursts over several years, as inspiration strikes, and which I'll set on the back burner to marinate as obstacles emerge. I will probably do some more thinking about it now, and see how far I can get before the next roadblock!

Thanks again,

Jeff

larienna
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Narrative mechanics

(~_~) it took more than half an hour to read this thread and I have not read everything in details. Now I just want to drop a few comments and ideas about various things.

First, the way I see it, there is two approach that you can take :

1- An adventure book with some variation
2- A game with some narrative text.

If you are going for type 1: The story of the book should somewhat have a variable part and a static part. The replay value focus on the variable part.

Now, it seem you are aiming for type 2.

I'll ask this question : What is the original goal of the narration?

I think it is to add more depth to the game. In this case, you can make a normal game and simply add more text to the event, item or other cards drawn. You do not need necessarily to calculate outcome of the story.

For example, in 1888, you wander in the city, enter buildings, interogate people and try to kill jack or his friends. Sure the game does not have a narrative feeling, but adding text to cards that player draws could do the job. Maybe when the player read the card, he does not know until he read it all if the event is good or bad. Maybe you could put some choice of action on the card too, But again, no need to calculate all possible occurence since the flow of the game is somewhat determined by the outcome of the game ( like any other game).

Now, if you intend to give a book to read, do you intend to make a multiplayer game? I can hardly see 4 people sitting around a table, reading a book and waiting for the others to finish before making their move. It won't be interesting. Consider also that many people hate reading books or can't read them accurately. The idea behind a narrative book is to make it easy to play a solo game.

I really like the idea of somewhat converting an adventure book in a board game. I would really like to make those kind of games since adventure books are somewhat dead.

There are probably different ways to do the job. We would really need to make small simple stories as a prototype and check if it works. Make diffenrent variations to the mechanics, analyse the advantage and disadvantage of each mechanic (ex: less replay value, but more details in the story). Then, when we have a set of various mechanics available, we could choose a mechanic that suit best for our game.

TheReluctantGeneral
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Narrative mechanics

Quote:
Now, if you intend to give a book to read, do you intend to make a multiplayer game? I can hardly see 4 people sitting around a table, reading a book and waiting for the others to finish before making their move. It won't be interesting. Consider also that many people hate reading books or can't read them accurately. The idea behind a narrative book is to make it easy to play a solo game.

I think you make a good point here. I think my current WIP is safe from this problem, since there is only one book, and the text being read aloud from said book is relevant to all players. Following the 'reading' players may immediately engage in a bout of competitive card playing as they all try take take advantage of what they just learned form the book.

However, once you give a book to each player, you are in danger of creating a less socially dynamic game.

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I really like the idea of somewhat converting an adventure book in a board game. I would really like to make those kind of games since adventure books are somewhat dead.

Now, do you mean a game for:

(1) 1 player - this is the easiest to implement

(2) more than one player, co-operating as in an RPG

This is easier than 3, as long we require that the co-operating players reach a consensus on each decision so there is no need to branch the narrative to take account of players choosing differently to each other. However in this case, it is not really very different to (1), and there might be trouble keeping players engaged. If players can make independant choices, then see (3).

(3) more than one player, competing against one another

This is very hard if each player can make independant choices. We probably need a book for each player, incurring the disadvantages you set out above. Alternatively, we can use the narrative to setup a situation, allow players to compete to select from a small number of predefined outcomes (for example fight a battle with cards). This is the mechanic used by my WIP, and I believe it gives the flavour of a narrative while still allowing considerable 'free will'. Free will is not enough though, there must also be some element of skill and strategy, and this could be tricky.

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There are probably different ways to do the job. We would really need to make small simple stories as a prototype and check if it works. Make different variations to the mechanics, analyse the advantage and disadvantage of each mechanic (ex: less replay value, but more details in the story). Then, when we have a set of various mechanics available, we could choose a mechanic that suit best for our game.

I think a few worked examples would be very condusive to discussion on this subject (perhaps in a different thread). But we need to decide which of the catagoires above (and if I missed some, then add to that list) we are interested in.

jwarrend
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Joined: 08/03/2008
Narrative mechanics

Larienna wrote:
(~_~) it took more than half an hour to read this thread and I have not read everything in details.

Thanks for wading through it! It's a long thread but I hope the ideas are interesting.

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I'll ask this question : What is the original goal of the narration?

The goal is primarily to give players the feeling that they are participating in a rich story, which progresses as the game proceeds, and which they can influence and interact with.

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I think it is to add more depth to the game. In this case, you can make a normal game and simply add more text to the event, item or other cards drawn. You do not need necessarily to calculate outcome of the story.

I'm not sure; I think flavor text certainly adds atmosphere, but it doesn't add narrative structure to the story. I've read about a game called "the Testimony of Jacob Hollow" that supposedly has a backstory that you can glean from the cards used in the game, but in actual practice, I've heard that it's impossible to actually assemble the story from the game. I'd like something with more structure to it than that.

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Now, if you intend to give a book to read, do you intend to make a multiplayer game? I can hardly see 4 people sitting around a table, reading a book and waiting for the others to finish before making their move. It won't be interesting.

Definitely multiplayer. Actually, my bigger concern with this is provability. In other words, you don't want players to just trade the paragraph book around for an hour and then all of a sudden one of the players stands up and says "I win!" Worse still if he has to prove it be retracing his steps through the paragraphs he's seen, finding them all and showing them to the other players.

I think that the game will incentivize players sharing information with each other, but there will be some things you'll want to keep secret. I see the books more as a way to modify the game state than the sole place in which action occurs. But yes, each player will have his own book; the reason for that is more to enable events to shake out differently depending on who triggers them.

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Consider also that many people hate reading books or can't read them accurately.

Yeah, but I'm just making this game to see if I can do it. I'm sure I can find four players who can tolerate some reading.

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The idea behind a narrative book is to make it easy to play a solo game.

I think this is more a nice consequence than a primary motivator, but yes, this is a good thing.

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There are probably different ways to do the job. We would really need to make small simple stories as a prototype and check if it works. Make diffenrent variations to the mechanics, analyse the advantage and disadvantage of each mechanic (ex: less replay value, but more details in the story). Then, when we have a set of various mechanics available, we could choose a mechanic that suit best for our game.

Definitely; anyone is welcome to try out any of the ideas mentioned in this discussion; I hope they'll spark someone's creativity!

Again, thanks for your comments and suggestions!

-Jeff

Scurra
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Narrative mechanics

I'm going to have to break a rule of mine and talk about All for One rather than chastizing Seth for doing the same :-) But I think it brings an interesting perspective to the narrative-vs-replayability argument here. Just for a reminder, it’s a pick-up-and-deliver game in which Mission cards instruct the players as to what they need to take where.

One of the things that a number of playtesters had mentioned (although never as an over-riding concern) was that although the thematic element certainly worked to make the Missions coherent, it didn’t feel as though there was any particular reason to do a Mission beyond the VP acquisition.
Ultimately, it came down to the question of “who exactly the players were representing?” within the game. Although there was the “secret identities” aspect, because you can move any of the pieces there wasn’t really a good linkage in which you played a specific role.

As part of this, Seth and I discussed an alternative thematic approach using Superheroes (specifically the X-Men, but that doesn’t really matter.) The idea here was be that players would act more like comic-book writers who were trying to get their particular plots adopted within the story. Although the X-Men idea hasn’t so far gone anywhere, the plot idea had been niggling away in my mind since then.

So when two (entirely independent) testers suggested that a separate plot-line element could be introduced, I started to think again about the idea, testing and rejecting several variants.

My* latest working version has dispensed with the Secret Identities and has replaced them with “Story Cards”. And there are now three additional Plot Tracks alongside the board, representing different aspects of the story – in this case, the War with England, the tension between the King and the Cardinal, and the conflict between duty (“honour”) and personal advancement (“ego”.)
(*I say “my” because this is an entirely new subsystem that Seth hasn’t been involved in developing.)

Instead of the Secret Identity card, players begin the game with a Story card. Each card details one end of each of the three Plot tracks (for instance, a card might say “War – King – Honour”) meaning that these are the aspects of the Story you want to have priority (over “Peace – Cardinal – Ego” in this case.) [To save time, I will note there are therefore eight different Story cards.]

Between the ends of each Plot track there are points spaces. For example:

King – 2 – 2 – 1 – 1 – 0 – 1 – 1 – 2 – 2 – Cardinal

Each time a player completes a Mission, a marker moves along the appropriate track in the appropriate direction. For example, completing the mission “d’Artaganan returns the stolen Jewels to the Palace” results in the marker on the King/Cardinal track moving towards the King end, because the Cardinal has been set-back in his plans.
At the end of the game, players score bonus VPs according to the relative position of the markers on the three tracks with respect to their particular Story card. (Note that players still score VPs for completing missions.)

At a purely abstract level, this doesn’t particularly change anything, since players are still trying to maximise their score in the most efficient way, with a hidden information aspect to ensure that it isn’t obvious who is winning.

But from a narrative perspective, the Missions now have a much stronger impact on the “feel” of the game - a player can actively choose to play-up the Story card aspect, and simply concentrate on telling the story. There’s a different outcome every time, and yet it all stays true to the narrative environment set-up within the game. It also creates an interesting gameplay dynamic; because everyone has a different set of Story goals, you will inevitably be sharing some and opposing others with each of the other players.

So there’s no hard-and-fast “story” here (I was never trying for a strict narrative design anyway), and there’s no real cause-and-effect (not at a direct level at least), but there’s certainly a story flow and the role-players are likely to appreciate the overall effect more than those who are simply playing a game. And it maintains the replayability aspect, since the gameplay is about figuring out the logistical puzzle as much as about defining the narrative.
Just some thoughts.

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