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Negating First Player Advantage

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JeffK
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Joined: 12/31/1969

In my game in progress, War Columns (see the thread http://bgdf.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4081), I have come upon a potential problem. The first player seems to have the significant advantage of putting the other player on the defensive immediately.

To briefly summarize the game:
Each player sets out three cards, face down, each in the front rank of the three columns the game is played in. You can attack the enemy Leader (the goal is to eliminate the enemy leader) only when the column opposite the attacker is empty. Each turn you can take five actions, including (in any order or combination):

1. Draw a card
2. Play a card
3. Increase your Supply (used to play cards)
4. Order a card (attack or use a special ability)

The difficulty arises if the first player eliminates one of the other player's opening cards. Now that player is forced to use one of his precious actions to play a card in that spot or risk keeping their Leader exposed. If the first player can keep the pressure up, the second player seems to have difficulty recovering.

Some possible solutions I have thought of:

1. The first player may not attack on his first turn (similar to Hera & Zeus)
2. The first player has an Action/Supply penalty on his first turn
3. The first player starts with fewer cards (the default is five) or may not draw cards.
4. The first player's Units all start out Tired (i.e. "tapped") and thus cannot be ordered.

There is another possibility, which doesn't directly apply to the problem but may help. Some cards (such as Wizards) have special attacks that are fairly damaging but cause the card to "Exhaust" (a double "tap" a las Magic, meaning TWO turns must pass before the card can be ordered again). These are quite devasating in the early game as they can, with lucky di rolls, eliminate most Units. These need limitations, I think. Some possible thoughts:

1. Add a Supply cost to use the special abilities
2. Add a rule that special abilities (and possibly ranged attacks) that target a specific enemy Unit cannot be used against a face down Unit.

Any other suggestions to help deal with this situation would be welcomed.

Jeff K.

Emphyrio
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Negating First Player Advantage

Maybe each player could get a free play each turn, or a certain number of free plays to start.

Many games start out with a period in which the players are building up their position or forces, rather than being able to attack right off the bat. That increases the tactical tension since you want to build up as much as possible, but you also want to attack before your opponent. I haven't been following your thread, so I don't know if something like this is feasible for your game.

JeffK
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Negating First Player Advantage

A free Unit play per turn might work, I'll have to look at it. Another idea, similar to what you have suggested about having each player have a "build" up time before attacking, would be allowing each player to lay down 6 cards (two per column) at the start of the game.That way it would be significantly harder to wipe out a colum on your first turn (especially if I only allow special abilities and ranged attacks to be used against revealed cards).

Thanks for the suggestions.

Jeff K.

gilbertgea
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Joined: 04/21/2009
Negating First Player Advantage

You could try to incorporate a system where actions are resolved simultaneously. In that case, there would be no advantage to going "first".

JeffK
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Negating First Player Advantage

Hmm. Now that's an interesting idea. Thanks, I'll see if I can figure out a way to work that into the design and give it a whirl.

Jeff K.

gilbertgea
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Negating First Player Advantage

Jeff,

As a point of reference, the game "Diplomacy" incorporates that concept. Players write down their orders for their armies and fleets (after diplomatic/negotiations phase), then reveal their orders simultaneously and carry them out. You might want to read about Diplomacy just for inspiration.

Good luck,

Geoff

Hedge-o-Matic
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Negating First Player Advantage

One idea I like to use is having players bid to be first. Their bid is the number of cards, or pieces, or whatever, they start with. This means that if a player believes they can win with a lessened advantage, they can bid lower. If the players tie, they re-bid, but cannot choose their last bid again.

This way, players who go first will still have an advantage, but it may just offset the disadvantage they have put themselves at.

gilbertgea
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Negating First Player Advantage

Bidding sounds like a good idea, but I've never really understood the concept so I cant really recommend it one way or the other. ;-)

JeffK
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Negating First Player Advantage

gilbertgea wrote:

As a point of reference, the game "Diplomacy" incorporates that concept. Players write down their orders for their armies and fleets (after diplomatic/negotiations phase), then reveal their orders simultaneously and carry them out. You might want to read about Diplomacy just for inspiration.

I'm familiar with Diplomacy. I don't think that mechanic would work well in this game, which is 2-player and meant to move fairly quickly. It would also not allow players to react to changes in the battle during their turn (i.e. a bad roll of the dice), which is an integral part of the game strategy.

I guess I just convinced myself that simulataneous turns are not the way to go with War Columns. It just wouldn't flow the same.

JeffK
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Negating First Player Advantage

Hedge-o-Matic wrote:
One idea I like to use is having players bid to be first. Their bid is the number of cards, or pieces, or whatever, they start with. This means that if a player believes they can win with a lessened advantage, they can bid lower. If the players tie, they re-bid, but cannot choose their last bid again.

This way, players who go first will still have an advantage, but it may just offset the disadvantage they have put themselves at.

I can think of three ways of doing this in War Columns (all of them involving secret bidding rather than open):

1) Bid Supply. Pretty straightforward, as Supply is the primary resource of the game.
2) Bid cards from your hand. Each player would lay a card face down and the one with the higher supply cost card bid gets to go first (or even second, if he wants). I could even include a "blank" card that always stays in your hand, but has the same back as every other card. Thus, if you don't want to risk any of your cards, you could secretly lay down the blank card instead, but if you really want to go first you may have to sacrifice one of your best cards to try and guarantee it.
3) Seperate "bid" cards #'d 1-5 (or whatever). Each turn the players lay down one of their bid cards, with the higher # going first. You don't get your bid cards back until all have been played, so you'll have to play your '1' at some point.

These would work, I think. The only question (for all three) would be how to resolve ties. This idea goes high on my list, thanks. :)

Jeff K.

VeritasGames
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Negating First Player Advantage

I know nothing about your game. I'll tell you how to limit first move advantage with abstract games and let you see if you can adapt it. In chess, for example, you let the first player move. The second player then:

a) accepts the first player's move (white's move) and then moves his own pieces (black); OR

b) the second player rotates the board, takes that move as his own, and then he becomes white and let's the other player have black

What this does is that if you open with a great move and there is a demonstrable first move advantage, the opponent will take your opening move and your position in the initiative order. It makes you make an OK but not great opening move.

You can probably develop some sort of resource that the second player controls that lets him either accept the first player's opening move in exchange for the resource, or it makes the first player take back the opening move and make a lesser move in exchange for the resource. Something like that.

Last solution used by a number of games -- if the game has a demonstrable first move advantage and is a resource allocation game then do NOT determine who goes first at random. Have players bid (either secretly or going round the table) on buying their turn order.

Shogun used to use a variant of this last method and random turn order. It had swords with turn orders on them that players drew each turn (instead of just going in a circle) OR you could buy a sword of your choice through a bidding process.

IngredientX
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Negating First Player Advantage

Can a player eliminate a card that his opponent has just played? Doesn't that feel a little too wasteful? It's what usually sours me on "Take That" games... the fact that a player can immediately clear out a card that I'd been waiting for the right time to play. Poof, I may as well not have had that turn.

If there was a global rule in the game that allows a card to stay out for at least one turn before being removed, would it be possible that this would help the whole game, not just the first turn?

I don't know enough about your game to be sure that this is at all helpful, but it's worth a shot.

JeffK
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Negating First Player Advantage

VeritasGames wrote:

Last solution used by a number of games -- if the game has a demonstrable first move advantage and is a resource allocation game then do NOT determine who goes first at random. Have players bid (either secretly or going round the table) on buying their turn order.

That is the route I'm looking at right now. There are a number of possibilities for secret bidding to see who gets to go first. I don't normally like bidding in a 2 player game (I realize I forgot to mention that the game is 2 player only at the moment), but in this setup secret bidding may work well.

Jeff K.

JeffK
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Negating First Player Advantage

IngredientX wrote:
Can a player eliminate a card that his opponent has just played? Doesn't that feel a little too wasteful? It's what usually sours me on "Take That" games... the fact that a player can immediately clear out a card that I'd been waiting for the right time to play. Poof, I may as well not have had that turn.

It's possible, but any action that results in the immediate removal of your opponent's card incurs significant costs for you, both in terms of supply (which you use to play cards, with stronger cards costing more supply) and in terms of your own Unit cards being "tired" or "exhausted", and thus unable to take any further actions for one or two more turns. The design of the game is such that you will not be able to throw down two very powerful cards in one turn, or even in two consecutive turns. You simply won't have the resources available to do so. Some cards have been shown to be too powerful in my playtesting (i.e. they make removing your opponent's Units too easy), and those have been either reduced in power or increased in cost (or both) to deal with that problem.

I'd prefer not to impose an artificial "immunity" on Units to save them. The main reason is that I want the game to have the feel of a battle in which no Unit is ever completely safe. If you want to protect a Unit (as much as you can, at least) you need to choose the time and its' position carefully. This actually reflect nicely the "Laws vs. Rules" thread found here:

http://bgdf.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4057

Rather than just saying "You can't remove that card because it was just played," I'd rather have the game system itself make it a difficult decision about wether or not you want to remove that card. In relation to my initial question in this thread, how can the system account for the natural advantage that the first player seems to have without imposing any "artificial" rules (such as "The first player cannot attack on his first turn").

Blind bidding of Supply and/or cards seems to be a good answer as it will incur a natural cost that a player may or may not wish to pay for that advantage.

Jeff K.

ThorsMitersaw
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Negating First Player Advantage

have you considered the mechanic from magic the gathering which helps to eliminate such an advantage...

summoning sickness

(unless the creatures card says otherwise) creatures cannot attack or use any abilities on the turn they come into play.

JeffK
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Negating First Player Advantage

Actually, the game already has that rule. However, when the game starts each player lays down three cards (one in each of their three columns) to start. These do not start Tired (tapped). Another possibility would be for all of these cards to enter Tired and for the first player to skip their Refresh phase, which would effectively address the concern. It's not quite as "natural" as I would like, but definitely is worth considering.

Of course, I could also remove the rule where players lay down three Units before starting the game. That would certainly be a radical change, but not out of the question.

Jeff K.

DavemanUK
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Games with 1st Player advantages

I generally dislike opening a game with an auction for turn order as it seems a bodge when a more elegant solution could have been explored.

For example, there's quite a few games that allocate different resources to the players based on their opening position (usually monetary offsets, e.g. Caylus, Goa). Puerto Rico is interesting because the 3rd player in a 4P game seems to be at an advantage and the offsets are based on initial plantations.

Dave W.

JeffK
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Negating First Player Advantage

I thought I'd give folks an update on this topic, since I considered the first player advantage to be the single biggest flaw in my game. I settled on two solutions, which seemed to work well in my last playtest:

1) Each player starts with 6 cards in play instead of 3 (i.e. 2 per column instead of 1 per column). This made it highly unlikely that the first player would be able to open a quick hole in his opponent's lines, which was the biggest problem with the old design (but not the only one).

2) Players now either get to move first or gain an advantage. There are "Turn Order" cards that are played every round (i.e. after each player goes once). The top half of the card says "Go first" and the bottom half states an advantage (i.e. +5 supply, +1/+1 Attack for all of your Units, Move a Unit, etc. etc.). In the current design, each player chooses from a hand of 5 Turn Order cards (both players have the same 5 cards). One of the two cards is chosen at random and then rotated face down until the top is facing one player and the bottom the other. The card is then flipped, and the player with "Goes first" closest to him goes first that round and the other player gets the stated advantage.

The other method I'm considering, using the same "Turn Order" cards, would be for one player to choose one of the 5 cards and the other player would then choose to either go first or get the advantage stated on the card. This strikes me as a bit more elegant, although we did find waiting to see which advantage was going to pop up, and who would get it, to be fun.

dsavillian
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Negating First Player Advantage

JeffK wrote:
The other method I'm considering, using the same "Turn Order" cards, would be for one player to choose one of the 5 cards and the other player would then choose to either go first or get the advantage stated on the card. This strikes me as a bit more elegant, although we did find waiting to see which advantage was going to pop up, and who would get it, to be fun.

I really really like that.

JeffK
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Negating First Player Advantage

Thanks, I think it has real potential. The plan for the next test is to have whoever went 2nd in the last round pick the Turn Order card, and whoever went first will choose wether to go first or second. Thus they can either maintain their momentum or choose the advantage - also allowing the other player to go twice in a row. I think it should make for some interesting decisions.

Jeff K.

anima022
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First move advantage

Hi - I realize that I may be a day late 'n a dollar short with my reply to this thread, but I do have an idea that may be of interest.

I am currently designing a card/abstract game in which two players play cards against each other (and for themselves) while building up an attack; then when an attack is ready to be executed, play shifts to what is essentially a chess variant (the blanket category 'chess variant' is close enough for classification, but not exactly accurate). On the gameboard is a large grid of squares, the pieces are set up according to which cards have been played by each player, a goal square is marked on the board, and the team defending tries to keep the attacking team away from the goal using move-by-move strategies. Each type of piece can move in certain restricted patterns, as in chess. There is a finite number of turns available for the attack to succeed or fail, which can be anywhere from 2-18 turns and is determined by dice rolls and any strategy cards played while building up the attack. The most frequent number of turns allotted is usually between 9-11.

In order to minimize the first turn advantage in the card game phase, each player must play a pair of starter cards before any other cards can be played. There is still a slight advantage for the player who goes first, but it is greatly minimized, since it is rare for either player to hold two starter cards in hand immediately off the deal. And let's face it - in real life, sometimes you just get lucky - and in this game, sometimes the first player will get lucky cards and play a starter pair immediately.

Once a player plays the starter pair for his side, he gets a free discard of any further starter cards that he draws for the remainder of play. As soon as the card is drawn, it is put in the discard pile face up and a replacement drawn immediately to make a 5-card hand again.

I do not want to minimize the first move advantage in the attack phase (the 'chess variant') because the team that generated the attack currently gets the first move, which is (IMHO) as it should be. Team A built up the attack against Team B, therefore when Team A launches its attack, they have the advantage due to being the aggressor.

It's likely that your game mechanic wouldn't support this idea as-is, but maybe a modified version that fits War Columns? Or perhaps you'll uncover some new ideas that you hadn't yet thought of...

I do like a lot of the ideas posted here so far. Happy to have found this forum!

--Rob

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