(Delete this if some one has already posted somthing like this)
A lot of talk about themes and genres though from my perspective on things in the industry no one has really created a new genre. Does anyone have any ideas for a new genre?
New Genres anyone?
Wed, 03/01/2006 - 20:33
Wed, 03/01/2006 - 20:42
#1
New Genres anyone?
You first.
Wed, 03/01/2006 - 20:45
#2
New Genres anyone?
No, after you. I insist.
I think Johan is on an interesting track (thread here) but even that isn't technically a "new" genre, more a meta-genre.
Wed, 03/01/2006 - 20:57
#3
New Genres anyone?
Creating a new genre doesnt happen very often that is for sure. Richard Garfield in 1993 was the last person to create a new genre that I know of.
- Dwight
Wed, 03/01/2006 - 21:05
#4
New Genres anyone?
It might be easier to come up with genres that havent been doneright yet. I haven't played all of them by any means but it looks like games with viking themes have a lot to be desired. Ancient civilizations have been done a lot, and very well, but not all ancient civilizations have been considered; for instance the ancient cambodian civilization (Khmyr?) or the Indus Valley civilization.
Wed, 03/01/2006 - 22:12
#5
New Genres anyone?
Triktrak wrote:
It might be easier to come up with genres that havent been doneright yet. I haven't played all of them by any means but it looks like games with viking themes have a lot to be desired. Ancient civilizations have been done a lot, and very well, but not all ancient civilizations have been considered; for instance the ancient cambodian civilization (Khmyr?) or the Indus Valley civilization.
These are themes, not genres. Civilization games in general are a genre, I suppose; some are good, some not, and some historical civilizations may be underrepresented. But they're still all civilization games, and there are plenty of 'em. It's not new.
I'd be deleriously happy to come up with a new twist on an existing mechanic in any genre of game. A new genre is a bit* beyond me, like inventing some new and catchy variety of music that isn't classical, isn't jazz, isn't country, isn't rock, isn't hip-hop.
* Well, maybe more than just a bit.
Wed, 03/01/2006 - 23:11
#6
New Genres anyone?
In all seriousness, the truth is that these things can only be recognized in hindsight. Magic only created the genre of CCGs because many games emulated it. Same thing with video games; would the genres of First Person Shooters or Real Time Strategy exist if games like Wolfenstein and Warcraft hadn't subsequently been so heavily emulated? (someone feel free to correct my video game history!)
I don't think you can set out to create a new genre; I think you just do your best to make a fun game. If it innovates in enough ways, and if others latch onto that and follow in a similar path, then a new genre may be said to emerge. But it's hard to wrap your head around what that would look like until it has actually happened.
-Jeff
Thu, 03/02/2006 - 02:03
#7
New Genres anyone?
You could make a CCBG - collectable board game... sort of a generic game with a core set of rules... and players who meet to play bring their expansions to the table when they meet. The expansions have rules, pieces, etc. that affect both players, so each time you play, you experience something new.
You could call it 'hybrid' and make mucho moolah.
Thu, 03/02/2006 - 14:21
#8
New Genres anyone?
Quote:
You could make a CCBG - collectable board game... sort of a generic game with a core set of rules... and players who meet to play bring their expansions to the table when they meet. The expansions have rules, pieces, etc. that affect both players, so each time you play, you experience something new.
Interesting concept... while I agree that this new genre thing is more of a hindsight thing, I do still enjoy thinking and hypothesizing.
As for CCBGs, I dont see how they're different from either 1) any board game with expansions that you could use (ie, Zombies!!!) or 2) a game like Magic, but with a board. Or like Dungeon Twister + expansion where each player brings 1/2 the rooms to build the board and can customize which characters they bring in.
As an aside, I recently discovered Battleground: Fantasy Warfare, which is a take on tabletop minitures where instead of figures you have cards to represent figures. To me, after reading about it, this seems to be a HUGE "why didn't I think of that" moment and I can easily see this being one of the next big things (Kinda like Mage Knight in relation to Warhammer type gaming). This actually kinda goes back to #2 up there too with each player bringing their different armies to the table.
Thu, 03/02/2006 - 15:36
#9
New Genres anyone?
There have been a number of attempts at collectible boardgames, including Stratego and Crypt (review of the latter here).
I suspect that it either just hasn't been done well yet, or that the concept is too unwieldy.
-- Matthew
Thu, 03/02/2006 - 16:19
#10
New Genres anyone?
Heroscape is working its way towards becoming a Collectable Board Game. Each player has their own armies built from individual units which can be purchased without buying the core system (Which is the only place to get the 'gameboard').
Thu, 03/02/2006 - 16:41
#11
New Genres anyone?
the closest thing to collectable boardsgames are expansions, good examples are settlers and carcassonne. Dungeon twister seems to be a game suited for expansions. Its mostly a marketing thing made to earn money. Board games arent as easily made into a collectabale thing.
Companies do try it, there are more money involved in these packages.
Axies & allies have something called miniatures, thats an attemp to make it more like a collectable game.
Look at Games workshop, are they interested in selling roleplaying supplements? Dont think so, it much better to sell small plastic figures for warhammer fantasy battle. Back in the 80´s i loved the roleplaying game!!!!!
I friend of mine had the license for pokemon collectable cardgame in sweden back in the days when it was very hot. Did they make lots of money?
You bet!
//Johan
Fri, 03/03/2006 - 17:41
#12
New Genres anyone?
The guys of ChiZo made a relatively big fuzz about
a new genre of game it would be... (here it comes:)
the collectible tile game...
That's right: tiles. Thicker, square cards, but still cards!
How creative and imaginative!
By the way, Gregory's Horror Show was said to be a new
genre of game... I've never seen it after the first
announcements, but does any of you know what happened
with it or even: what it was?
Mon, 03/06/2006 - 07:06
#13
New Genres anyone?
Games normally change by evolution (small steps that will eventually lead to a new gene). Eventually the industry takes a huge leap forward but that is rare. Ideas are changed and twisted. If several of games are using a new idea in a slightly different way, and some of these ideas are used with a twist and so on, eventually you will have a new idea, a new theme or a new gene. All middle games in between are still valid own games...
For me there are 11 games that are milestones in the modern game industry. Several of the games are not the one that was first, but without those games the game world would look different:
- Monopoly: Multi-action pawn-moving with interaction. The graphic design is unique (but did not become so until Parker Brothers redesigned the game). The game is now only alive by nostalgic reasons. This is also a game where the history around the game is more interesting then the game itself.
- Scrabble: The father of modern tail-laying games. Also one of the basic family games without dice.
- Clue/Cluedo: Set the standard for detective games.
- Risk: New, fresh and base for epic war-games.
- Diplomacy: Base for political and intrigue games.
- Tactics II: the start point for war-games with different units and hex.
- Dungeons & Dragons: Makes RPG popular. The leveling system can also be found in both board games and in computer games. This is also the base for Dungeon Crawlers.
- Trivial Pursuit: Sets a new standard in graphic design and game types for family games.
- Warhammer fantasy battle: Together with D&D and Tolkins, it sets the standard for fantasy. Also it makes the game the hobby (the game is just a part of the hobby).
- Magic the gathering: Both the birth CCG and makes card games more popular then ever.
- Settlers af Catan: German styled games become popular (this game turned up exactly the right time in the vacuum after the RPG crash and when the popularity of CCG went down with the WotC CCG patent).
We have also games that have some new ideas that are more then notable. Among them we have:
- Carcassone: A genius game in its simplicity, but is not an own gene.
- Puerto Rico: The action mechanism is new and a sets a trend, but not a gene.
- Vampire the masquerade: Manage to set the standard for a vampire gene, but are not the base
- Lord of the Rings (Knizas variant that I don’t remeber the exact name): A new type of cooperative games...
- and many more...
Finally we some new ideas (genes) in this forum. One notible game are:
- Art attack (it has a new name now but it can be found in the GDW) section. It is in the same category as Calyo´rama, but something completely new (not in the market yet).
Finally: Genes are also ways to put things into boxes so we can define and identify them. Most games are hybrids and do not fit into one solid category. (I don’t like genes and categories, because it can exclude new ideas). The same time you place a game in a category or a gene, you also say that the basic idea for the game is stolen and it's nothing new.
I would more like to talk about trends, milestones and ideas then the downgrading word gene.
// Johan
Mon, 03/06/2006 - 07:09
#14
New Genres anyone?
Scurra wrote:
No, after you. I insist.
I think Johan is on an interesting track (thread here) but even that isn't technically a "new" genre, more a meta-genre.
Thanks for that... But I agree, its not a new gene...
// Johan
Mon, 03/06/2006 - 07:22
#15
New Genres anyone?
I agree with Johan that most changes in the boardgame industry are evolutionary, rather than revolutionary. New genres are really rare, usually new games are built upon the foundations of other games and/or they combine ideas from other games with a new idea added to create a new game. Every once in a while such a game becomes huge hit, because it manages to push the right buttons (ie. Carcassonne, Ticket to Ride, Settlers of Catan). These games have become a franchise in their own right, but their haven't spawned a new genre like MtG did.
To create a new genre, I think, you have to combine a boardgame mechanic with something that doesn't have anything to do with boardgaming. Magic combined a card game idea with the collectible cards idea (ie. baseball, soccer cards). King Arthur combines a board game with electronic AI.
Perhaps one can create a new genre by combining a boardgame with internet? Mobile phones? Digital cameras?
Tue, 03/07/2006 - 12:05
#16
New Genres anyone?
Quote:
To create a new genre, I think, you have to combine a boardgame mechanic with something that doesn't have anything to do with boardgaming.
How about embedded computing? I came across an an interesting paper today from someone's master thesis about applying embeddable/ubiquitous computing into a gameboard and/or it's components (in which he acknowledges help he got from BGG or BGDF). You'd get the feel of a boardgame but with cool stuff like automatically mediated hidden movement, combat resolution, visuals and so on. But it would also deliver alot more than a solo computer game - i.e. the social aspect, body language cues etc. Is this something manufaturers could make good money on?
Wouldn't that be a radically new gaming experience? In fact, now I come to think about it, I've read a few SF novels that feature things like this....
--Dan
Tue, 03/07/2006 - 15:28
#17
New Genres anyone?
TheReluctantGeneral wrote:
How about embedded computing? I came across an an interesting paper today from someone's master thesis about applying embeddable/ubiquitous computing into a gameboard and/or it's components (in which he acknowledges help he got from BGG or BGDF).
It's already been done, and more than once, although it doesn't seem to have "caught on" yet as a major new genre. BoardGameGeek seems to be down this morning, but according to Google you can read about Reiner Knizia's electronic board game "King Arthur" by following this link.
Tue, 03/07/2006 - 16:26
#18
New Genres anyone?
You're right that there have been plenty of electronically assisted games around since at least the eighties. The presence of electronics or even a central cpu is not quite what I meant though. The main gimmick in King Arthur seems to be voice recognition which does nothing for the gameplay, it seems.
I had something more sophisticated in mind. For example, having an independant cpu in each playing piece, such that pieces have their own volition that is not entirely under player control.
A game in which the components - pieces and board - interact with one another and with the players with real levels of sophistication would be something new I think.
Combine that concept with collectible games, really cheap computing, wireless technology, the internet and the ability for pieces to remember previous games and I think you do have something close to a new genre.
All very blue sky of course, but in a couple of decades perhaps...
Tue, 03/07/2006 - 18:05
#19
New Genres anyone?
TheReluctantGeneral wrote:
The main gimmick in King Arthur seems to be voice recognition which does nothing for the gameplay, it seems.
King Arthur keeps track of what choices players have made, and those choices affect gameplay later on. It's not just a voice recognition gimmick. That said, however...
TheReluctantGeneral wrote:
Combine that concept with collectible games, really cheap computing, wireless technology, the internet and the ability for pieces to remember previous games and I think you do have something close to a new genre.
...that certainly does sound new. I agree that it's "blue sky" at this point.
Tue, 03/07/2006 - 18:25
#20
New Genres anyone?
TheReluctantGeneral wrote:
...
I had something more sophisticated in mind. For example, having an independant cpu in each playing piece, such that pieces have their own volition that is not entirely under player control.
A game in which the components - pieces and board - interact with one another and with the players with real levels of sophistication would be something new I think.
Combine that concept with collectible games, really cheap computing, wireless technology, the internet and the ability for pieces to remember previous games and I think you do have something close to a new genre.
...
Now you might be onto something.
Imagine a wargame...
Each collectable miniature is an autonomous unit that:
1) can move on its own (little tank treads or wheels underneath)
2) can tell where it is on a board (it can read the hex it is on or something)
3) can see other pieces (via an IR signal)
4) can attack other pieces on it's own (via an IR signal)
5) and keeps track of its hit points and "dies" when dead. (lights or something).
6) can talk to a computer to get other info.
The game board has all the terrain info recorded on it's surface (units can get the terrain they can "see" via by talking to the computer.
Instead of taking turns, the action is continuous. Players direct their troops by placing "flags" on the board, indicating what areas they want to control. A player has several unique flags (for each squad of units, there could be "move" and "move and attack"). When a flag is placed, it reads its hex, talks to the computer, and the units recieve orders to move towards that flag, or move towards that flag and fight anything along the way.
Other than specific commands, your troops would move and fight all on their own. You couldn't say "attack him!" or "heal that guy!" - you'd just have to watch your troops move around and duke it out on their own.
It'd be like an RTS but on a game board.
Tue, 03/07/2006 - 18:48
#21
New Genres anyone?
Quote:
Imagine a wargame...
Each collectable miniature is an autonomous unit that:
1) can move on its own (little tank treads or wheels underneath)
2) can tell where it is on a board (it can read the hex it is on or something)
3) can see other pieces (via an IR signal)
4) can attack other pieces on it's own (via an IR signal)
5) and keeps track of its hit points and "dies" when dead. (lights or something).
6) can talk to a computer to get other info.
That's kind of what I had in mind, except without the autonomous movement and detection, which sounds (at least in the near future) expensive and likely to go wrong. IMO, the key point is that the units make their own decisions and players can only guide the battle/game by issuing orders which may or may not be followed, just like a real battlefield.
Of particular interest would be the case in which each unit learns - both the immediate battlefield situation and heuristics derived from previous games. Then you have the ability to start training groups of units to act in concert with each other.
Embedded computing could enhance boardgames in many ways, but the most radical contributions must be the availability of real or faked AI combined with information hidden from the player. The technology certainly exists to do something along these lines today, it's more the marketing and zeitgeist elements that are lacking at the moment. On this point it's my feeling that if teenagers could be hooked on playing such a game then it would be likely to succeed since they have the enormous buying power that it would take to persuade a manufacturer to invest. Consequently, it would have to perceived as a cool thing, which would be the tricky bit - to most kids boardgames are _not_ cool.
Tue, 03/07/2006 - 19:13
#22
New Genres anyone?
Quote:
Imagine a wargame...
Each collectable miniature is an autonomous unit that:
1) can move on its own (little tank treads or wheels underneath)
2) can tell where it is on a board (it can read the hex it is on or something)
3) can see other pieces (via an IR signal)
4) can attack other pieces on it's own (via an IR signal)
5) and keeps track of its hit points and "dies" when dead. (lights or something).
6) can talk to a computer to get other info.
When I was younger I played with a toy called Battle Bots. These bots were packaged with a bunch of cards that when swiped into the bot would activate various features. It could be a laser, punching, going in different directions, upgrades to various features, and etc. There were a bunch of different types of bots each with there own unique personalities.
Quote:
Other than specific commands, your troops would move and fight all on their own. You couldn't say "attack him!" or "heal that guy!" - you'd just have to watch your troops move around and duke it out on their own.
This is pretty much what the bots did. They moved themselves and sensed others. Although, most of the time they didn't work as well as I thought they would (like most toys).
Making them smaller and sensing various locations would be a nice idea for a game but the costs could get expensive.
Good luck!
Justin
Tue, 03/07/2006 - 19:25
#23
New Genres anyone?
TheReluctantGeneral wrote:
IMO, the key point is that the units make their own decisions and players can only guide the battle/game by issuing orders which may or may not be followed, just like a real battlefield.
Of particular interest would be the case in which each unit learns - both the immediate battlefield situation and heuristics derived from previous games. Then you have the ability to start training groups of units to act in concert with each other.
This can, and is being done today, in computer strategy games. I'm currently finding it hard to see what is being added by giving the game a physical representation, appart from cost and additional restrictions on the gameplay.
Tue, 03/07/2006 - 19:43
#24
New Genres anyone?
TheReluctantGeneral wrote:
You're right that there have been plenty of electronically assisted games around since at least the eighties. The presence of electronics or even a central cpu is not quite what I meant though. The main gimmick in King Arthur seems to be voice recognition which does nothing for the gameplay, it seems.
I had something more sophisticated in mind. For example, having an independant cpu in each playing piece, such that pieces have their own volition that is not entirely under player control.
Speaking as a playtester, King Arthur was considerably more sophisticated than you're giving it credit for. The various characters inhabiting the board moved around on it, the prices of goods fluctuated and the monsters strengths varied according to the players actions and previous actions. Very few players realised this because of the number of times it would take to discover the details was more than the limited number of times that they played it.
And I suspect that your 'independant cpu' would suffer exactly the same fate. They wouldn't be able to tell the subtlety of how the piece sometimes moved and sometimes didn't. They'd just know that sometimes it did and sometimes it didn't. Largely at random. And they'd think 'why did I just spend loads of money on this, when I could have got a dice for a fraction of the price, and at least I'd be able to calculate the odds with that'.
Wed, 03/08/2006 - 00:29
#25
Computerized game boards
Actually electronics companies are already working on products along this line:
"Philips announced today that it will unveil its prototype of ‘Entertaible’ – a tabletop gaming platform that marries traditional multi-player board and computer games in a uniquely simple and intuitive way, at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) on January 5th, 2006. Currently a working concept, Entertaible comprises a 30-inch horizontal LCD, sophisticated touch screen-based multi-object position detection, and all supporting control electronics."
"The researchers at HP Labs are a serious bunch working on ways to create the data centers and transistors of the future--but the company sees no harm in going after the gaming-table market on the side."
Wed, 03/08/2006 - 07:07
#26
New Genres anyone?
Quote:
The various characters inhabiting the board moved around on it, the prices of goods fluctuated and the monsters strengths varied according to the players actions and previous actions. Very few players realised this because of the number of times it would take to discover the details was more than the limited number of times that they played it.
Ok, point taken about King Arthur. I think the problem that you refer to here is a real one - how do you make all that technology actually enhance the immediate playing experience? The answer to that question is certainly not immediately obvious.
Quote:
This can, and is being done today, in computer strategy games. I'm currently finding it hard to see what is being added by giving the game a physical representation, appart from cost and additional restrictions on the gameplay.
I think the answer to this lies in the reasons that boardgames still get played at all when we all have computer games we could be playing. I suppose that with boardgames you get a very different user interface with a boardgame, as well as social aspects. Embedded computing in boardgames should be merited if a way can be found to make some of the gameplay advantages of computer games available in a boardgame without detracting from it's essential boardgame-ness.
Wed, 03/08/2006 - 08:47
#27
New Genres anyone?
CardboardAddict wrote:
Gregory's Horror Show was said to be a new
genre of game... I've never seen it after the first
announcements, but does any of you know what happened
with it or even: what it was?
There's a PS2 game called Gregory Horror Show, based on an anime. Is this what you're thinking of?
It wasn't really any kind of new genre, merely a fairly unusual mechanic that involved spying on people through keyholes. Mostly it was just the old avoid an enemy / sneak up on an enemy gameplay we've seen in Metal Gear et al.
Wed, 03/08/2006 - 18:27
#28
New Genres anyone?
Quote:
There have been a number of attempts at collectible boardgames, including Stratego and Crypt (review of the latter here).
I suspect that it either just hasn't been done well yet, or that the concept is too unwieldy.
How about a modification to the CCG such that:
(1) The cards represent the territory of the players homeland. Core rules exist to define how territory may be deployed on the game table at the beginning of each match, augumented by additoinal rules defined on the cards themselves. Players can setup their territory differently each time based on what they know about their opponent.
(2) Players also collect pre-painted plastic miniatures ala Mage Knight, which are deployed on the territory cards. Pieces may 'invade' the territory cards of opposing players.
(3) Collectible packs contain both territory cards, and the figures associated with those territories. Perhaps also cards to describe figure stats, if these cannot be represented on the territory card. Holding large numbers of similar or same territory cards makes the territory correspoondingly more powerful.
This gives you a form of modular reconfigurable boardgame which is portable and quick to setup. I guess you could think of the territory cards as 'tiles', but there is no need for them to have a partcular form factor, playing cards would do fine.
Not a new genre - but a sub-genre (combining CCG and miniatures) perhaps.
--Dan
Thu, 03/09/2006 - 08:04
#29
New Genres anyone?
The PS2 game, wasn't really what I meant,
but 'still thanks. I researched it on the net.
I believed also a collectible card game of
GHS was coming out... but maybe I'm
confused. Thanks for the help!
Thu, 03/09/2006 - 09:09
#30
New Genres anyone?
Gregory Horror Show was a collectible miniature board game, based on the PS2 game. In the main box you would get a map over the house, some counters, 1 miniature (Gregory), the player's pawns, 2 decks of cards and a dice. The expansions was only monsters (cool things but not worth the money).
Tested the game once, but it did not work (it was more about the cool miniatures then on the game). There was nothing now about the game.
// Johan
p.s. I have tried to find info on the net about this game but not been successful.
