Skip to Content
 

Order and Chaos

12 replies [Last post]
Pt314
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969

I seem to have a problem with some of my more recent projects. It has to deal with how 'turbulent' to make the game. Not enough, or too much ruins the game.

On one hand I have games where once someone has a slight lead, they are definitely going to win unless they do something stupid. Nobody else can stop them. It is even more frusterating when the slight lead seems like it could have happened to anyone, and the game boils down to the luck of the initial position.

On the other hand I have games where someone can work hard on a certain stratagy, but it is easily killed by another player, either by being lucky, or use of an unbalanced mechanic. These kind of games are too unpredictable, and there is also a disconnect from the players.

Sometimes I have games where they are one extreme, but a small change in the rules sends it to the other extreme.

Both of these tend to make a game not very fun. They seem very different but they both end up being based on lucky circumstances determining the game, and not skill.

What is a good way to get around these problems. Any signs that pop up in the game design that warn you?

Anonymous
Order and Chaos

I guess I would need more specific situation information, to come up with some possible ways to introduce more control, or the ability to dial a game one way or the other while designing.

A couple times I've just gotten lucky, thrown my ideas on the table, let different strategies pop up, and the approaches/players ended up being fairly even, or at least a good foundation to start tweaking from.

Hedge-o-Matic
Hedge-o-Matic's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/30/2008
Order and Chaos

In the abstract gaming world, this quality in a game is usually called decisiveness. At the one end of the spectrum, any advantage will simply snowball inexorably toward victory. The game is too decisive. At the other end there's the game that vacillates so wildly from turn to turn that good play becomes not only futile, but impossible, since there's no basis for tactics, much less strategy.

Between these two extremes, most games lean one way or another. Chess tends toward strong decisivness in good players, and the unexpected loss of a single pawn among skilled players could be a critial error. But this is only a function of skill, really, and less skilled players can be winning up until the very moment they lose the game.

If decisiveness is a problem for you lately, try deconsructing your game mechanics. Look for what elements of the game the players directly control, and note those which can be reversed by another player later in the game. How many reversals are possible, as opposed to non-reversable elements? How easy are they to achieve, as compared to those things that cannot be undone?

These questions will give you a good feel for things that might be slinging your games far to one side or the other of the decisivness spectrum.

For instance, in Chess, moves cannot be undone by an opponant, though threats can be nullified or countered. Captures are absolute. Of these elements, only threats can be influenced by an opponant, and only through good play and the potential loss of a turn in doing so. Hence, Chess tends to be decisive, but allows for strategic planning as well as intelligent tactical decisions.

Flux, on the other hand, is a card game where players regularly change the entire layout of the victory conditions, making any strategic decisions impossible. By thei time your turn comes around, your entire hand may be nearly worthless. By the turn after that, it may be a game winner, all without any action or decision by you. In Flux, there is no action of an opponant that cannot be undone by someone else, and that is game-breaking indecisiveness.

Pt314
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
Order and Chaos

To be more specific it is more of a problem with balancing a game.

One of my last games had trouble with the players who were lucky enough to get a strong unit on the field first almost always won. Although when I tried to fix it by making it easier for weak units to defeat a stronger one, much of the stratagy dissapeared and was replaced with who got the lucky dice rolls.

I thought this would be an interesting topic.

Pt314
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
Order and Chaos

I knew there must have been a term for what I was describing. I think I heard it called decisiveness before.

Chess happens to be a decisive game that I love, even though it may seem hopeless to beat someone with a two piece lead, or if you made a blunder where you lose your queen.

I guess I would like to know the danger signs of a game being too decisive, or not decisive enough.

Hedge-o-Matic
Hedge-o-Matic's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/30/2008
Order and Chaos

Yes, well, I'd look at this as follows:

Things players can do:
1.) Get Strong units into play slowly.
2.) Get weaker units into play quickly.
3.) Fight with units on the board.

If the threat posed by #1 can be matched by the use of #2, there's balance. If #1 instead read "Get strong units into play quickly", there'd be a problem, because it would only be effectivly blocked by the opponant using strategy #1 as well. This would make for dull, mirror-play gaming.

If we assume that #1 is matched by the enemy using either #1 or #2, there's some room for tactical decision-making by them. But if their use of #3 makes your choice of #1 worthless, (as it apparently became when you changed the rules), then the only viable option for either player again becomes #2.

The example above, though simple, brings to light some of the balance issues you're facing. The specifics of combat (choice #3) make that a tough analysis, but at least there's some way to interpret the results of a rule or rule change.

Hedge-o-Matic
Hedge-o-Matic's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/30/2008
Order and Chaos

I'd say that a game becoems too decisive if:
1.) A gain in material (pieces) as well as position by either player cannot be countered after it is made.
2.) Any gain makes future gains more likely.

A game is indecisive if:
1.) There's usually an option available that cancels the benefit of your opponant's last move.
2.) Niether material nor positional advantage is permenant, and cancelling such advantage is as easy or easier than achiving it was in the first place.

Anonymous
Order and Chaos

I like how hedge breaks down a broad/general game, nicely done.

One specific example I can share is when I am balancing weapons in a certain game.

A player could have either TWO fists or just ONE spear (two handed weapon)

Now in this particular game, damage is damage is damage, that is to say, roughly anything that hits you is the same as anything else. u get smacked you take one point of damage, always and only.

Now if each fist can strike once (possibility of two strikes), and the spear can strike (possibility of one strike) I have to make it advantageous for a player to use the spear.

My answer here was the spear is harder to block/dodge and strikes more often (randomly) than a single fist, so a player may indeed opt for it.

Just one real world way to tweak and balance.

jwarrend
Offline
Joined: 08/03/2008
Order and Chaos

Pt314 wrote:

One of my last games had trouble with the players who were lucky enough to get a strong unit on the field first almost always won. Although when I tried to fix it by making it easier for weak units to defeat a stronger one, much of the stratagy dissapeared and was replaced with who got the lucky dice rolls.

If it's luck as to whether a player can get a strong unit on the board or not, it sounds like that's your problem right there. Look to games like Axis and Allies for the solution to this one: strong units should either cost more, or be harder to replace, or in some way be more valuable than weak units.

Good luck,

Jeff

zaiga
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
Order and Chaos

First of all, I don't believe units (or special abilities of buildings, or whatever) have to be perfectly balanced. Half of the fun of a game can be figuring out which type of units or "better" than others, although it should take at least a few games to figure this out.

The problem with balancing units in a wargame is that if the units aren't properly balanced then players will eventually figure this out and will only acquire the "best" unit. A good example of this is the "old" Axis & Allies. People who play it a lot tend to buy only tons of infantry, and some transports to move them around, and they win with that strategy. A lot of cool units aren't used simply because they are overpriced.

On the other hand, if all units are perfectly balanced then there's no reason to favor one unit over the other. For example, suppose you have a spearman unit who rolls a d6 and does 1 damage when a 5 or 6 is rolled. There's also a swordsman unit who rolls 2d6 and does 1 damage when a 6 is rolled. These units are functionally the same, they both have a 1 in 3 chance to do 1 damage. It doesn't matter which unit you use, it's just a matter of taste.

The trick is to more-or-less balance all the units against eachother, but at the same time make them all functionally different so that in one situation you want this unit, and in another situation you want that unit. A way to do this would be to introduce a rock-scissors-paper-esque model. This could be as simple as "cavalry gets a +2 against swordsmen, swordsmen get a +2 against spearmen, spearmen get a +2 against cavalry". This way, the units may still be functionally the same, but players have to adjust their strategy based on what their opponents do. It's a crude way of doing enforcing assymmetry though.

A nicer way to achieve assymetry would be to introduce an "initiative/offense/defense" model. For example, the player with the most "first strike" units (say, cavalry, bowmen) may strike first, rolls for offense and opponent rolls for defense. If offense is higher than defense the defender loses that many units. Then the defender may return the attack, rolls for offense and opponent rolls for defense, etc. The idea here is that an army with high initiative/offense may overwhelm a slightly slower army and wipe them out before they can return fire, but if the surprise attack fails (against, say, an army with a very high defense factor) they are very vulnerable for the counterattack.

Just some ideas.

CIDIC
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
Order and Chaos

game balance tips:

when trying to balance units (usualy cost of the unit matching the units effectiveness for example) i have a rather effective method.

I'll use Magic the gathering bascis for an example. creatures have and attack/deffence stat and they have a cost stat, keeping this balanced so that some creatures are unfairly cheaper and more effective than others is a tricky thing.

first I try to set a reference point;

a creature with 5 attack and 5 defence cost 5
I then base all the cards i create on that reference point, i ask my self if a 5/5 creature cost 5 is it fair if a 2/3 creature cost 3? sometimes you can create a spectrum the high and lows of the game. the lowestis 1/1 cost 1 and the highest is a 10/10 cost 12, so you can kinda fill in the gap. The most common mistake I and other game designers i've worked with have made is making your reference point too high or too low (if your only creating one reference point not 2, (most games call for only 1). you want to make it somewhere in the middle, so that you can make cards better and cards worse than it.

or formula:
such as, Attack + Defence = cost
or averager of Attack and Defence = cost

also when creating units for a wargame or a card game or whatever, I try to make them too weak or too strong. I set a few reference points, I then design units keeping the reference points in mind, but i set them just a bit lowwer than I would feel is fair in relation to the reference points. this does 2 things when you test the game, 1) it will quickly reveal any cards that are signifigantly over powered, and 2) when adjusting the stats of the units you know that they mostly need to go up not down, compared to the reference points. After doing this you have a good range of units that are now closely balanced to eachother and you can now use most of them as solid reference points.

as for the un predictability problem, most games need a random element, most of the time if you suck at a game and your friend is exceptional at it you dont want to play, it won't be much fun (most of the time). Games with random elements keep it fun for players with differing ability. thats the apeal to magic the gathering, there is always a good chance you could win even though your opponent has a better deck and is a better player.

one thing i've noticed is, games that require more die rolls are more predictable. To see that you have a 5% chance of rolling each number on a d20 you would need to roll it like 10,000 times. to see the probability of rolling 3 or 4 d6 it would be much less like 1000, (i'm guessing these numbers lol but you get the idea) the point is that, you won't get wild results as often with the 3d6 or 4d6 than you will with the d20.

Hedge-o-Matic
Hedge-o-Matic's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/30/2008
Order and Chaos

Another tactic wargames use besides price in balancing strength is the concept of stackinglimitations. Though this is normally seen as a concentration-of-force issue, it also plays directly ito the power of units. If your strength 1 unit costs 1, a strangth 2 unit costs 3, and a strength 3 unit costs 7, it would still be reletively balanced if you could only have a couple (say, 1 to 3) units in the same hex at a time. Thus your expensive strength-3 units, though painful to buy, would project a lot of power into the limited space of a single hex. This is something else you might consider, in pricing units, and deciding true value: how much influence can they project at one time? Stacking increases this efect.

Pt314
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
Order and Chaos

Thanks for the help.

I was interested in this because this is something that pops up a lot in my games.

After a couple simpler games, I have decided to try again with a stratagy/tactics game. This time I have been working a lot more trying to get my system balanced. It's hard aiming for a game that isn't too decisive, and yet at the same time decisive enough for players to feel like their stratagys are paying off.

Some of the ideas, such as unit cost, I have been working on quite a bit. In fact in the game I am working on right now each unit has a cost, and how much they can contribute to other units. Along with Attack, Defense, & Initiative (I might add movement speed if I can work out the board.)

Good thing we have playtesting, it happens to work really well when balancing games.

Syndicate content


forum | by Dr. Radut