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problem with Pseudo-Tapping

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Hollyhock
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Joined: 12/31/1969

Hello, I sometimes read this forum but this is my first post here, so I hope I´m making it in the right place. :-)

I´m currently designing a multiplayer non-collectable cardgame ("Vorago") in which each player represents a god with 3 avatars cards. Each gameround is composed by successive turns, where a player chooses an avatar, makes something with it (attack another avatar, steal energy from a player, put in defensive position, take a card in play for its owner, etc...), and then gives the turn to the next player. When all the avatars have been "activated" once, the round finishes and another phase begins.

Everithing is OK until I notice that I need a way to "mark" which avatars have been activated in the current round. Since the avatars can also be killed (discard the card), wounded (put face down), and defending (placed near the center of the table), the easiest way of marking them "activated" is rotating them 90 degrees.

We all know that Richard Garfield has a patent over the "tapping" mechanism in his MagicTG patent. I read the patent but I´m quite lost with all that legal stuff.

Here comes my question. Can I change the name of "tapping" for something else (as an example, "activating") and use it freely? Other games in the market have "tapping" mechanisms (with other names). Or has Richard Garfield rights upon ANY game in which rotating of cards is involved? My "activating" mechanism is conceptually different from the MTG tap: only the avatars can tap, the tapping of an avatar each turn is mandatory, and there are no cards or effecs that can trigger an untap or tap. It´s quite straightforward.

How do you cope with those "patenting" limitations when designing? You simply discard any idea which could be similar (but not the same) to a patented one, to prevent legal problems?

I live in Spain, I´m not from the EEUU. If I publish this game in Spain, I know that EEUU patent won´t affect me... will it? but if I publish the game via internet and let anyone download it, it will...

Placing a pennie or a counter over an activated avatar could state they have been activated (instead of turning them), avoiding all this legal problem. But if you can tell me something about this it would be great. First, because my game has already enough markers and pennies, and second, because I have a similar problem with other games of mine.

Thank you.

zaiga
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Joined: 12/31/1969
problem with Pseudo-Tapping

I don't think it will be a problem, because you don't call it "tapping" and it's not used in the context of a collectible card game.

However, I'm not a lawyer. If you want to be 100% certain, you should get legal advice.

NetWolf
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Joined: 12/31/1969
problem with Pseudo-Tapping

Sure, you can very easily turn a card sideways to show that it's in use. Just don't call it "tapping". Another card game that came out recently called the Universal Fighting System by Sabertooth Games uses the same mechanic.

Hedge-o-Matic
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Joined: 07/30/2008
problem with Pseudo-Tapping

It seems we get more questions about "tapping" than anything else, CCG-wise. The utility of the patent on such play mechanisms as tapping is very questionable. Trying to prove that turning a card 90 degrees is an innovation worth protecting would be pretty difficult to do. And legal action based on such a patent would likely be limited to a "cease and desist" letter, if even that. Considering most game companies are cash-poor, even Hasbro would hesitate to initiate legal proceedings against someone when the issue is so vauge, considering they'd be hard-pressed to show a loss, and would be unlikely to collect damages from a startup game designer.

Frankly, I wouldn't worry, at this point. If your game goes big-time, change the name from tapping to something else to give yourself some cover, but don't lose sleep over it.

Shellhead
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Joined: 12/31/1969
problem with Pseudo-Tapping

Various CCGs have gotten around the patent by using alternative terms for "tapping". Some have even work it into the theme of the game:

rotating
bowing
exhausting
committing

MattMiller
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Joined: 12/31/1969
problem with Pseudo-Tapping

I haven't read the patent that prompted this discussion, and I'm not a lawyer. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last night. But I do have a lot of experience filing patents (I have about 25 of them).

I very much doubt that calling the mechanic by a name other than the one used in the patent would have any effect legally. What you call an idea has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a patent protects it. For example, one of the Wright Brother's key inventions was the idea of putting a rudder on an airplane. While their patents were in effect, you couldn't get away with putting a rudder on your plane just because you called it a "fraznoid".

I think there's some confusion here between patents and trademarks. To be clear:

    Patents cover ideas, Copyrights cover expressions of ideas, and
    Trademarks cover words used for marketing purposes.
WOC might have trademarked their usage of the word "tapping", which would mean you're not allowed to use it in the same way. But the fact that this is the word they used in their patent application is irrelevant -- it's the underlying idea that matters.

That said, I can't imagine that a patent on the idea of rotating a card to show it's been used would stand up in court. It's such a trivial and obvious idea, and I'd be amazed if it had never been used before the WOC folks were in diapers, much less wrote their patent. Furthermore, as pointed out above, it seems very unlikely they'd get anything out of pursuing every little game designer who rotated a card.

If you're really worried about it, talk to a lawyer. But if it were me personally, I wouldn't worry.

-- Matt

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larienna
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Joined: 07/28/2008
problem with Pseudo-Tapping

I think that the patent protect the idea of tapping a card as a ressource in order to play another card.

There is another thread somewhere on this forum that stated the 3 conditions covered by the patent. One of them is the fact that it must be a CCG.

Hollyhock
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Joined: 12/31/1969
problem with Pseudo-Tapping

Thank you very much for all this information!

MatMiller´s observation is true: is obvious that I can´t just change the name and use it. I wanted to know until what point can we design a card-rotating mechanism... well, actually I was wondering if simply putting a little rotating mechanism in a game could get me sued.

So, let´s say that legally it can be discussible that my game gets into the patent, but only that: discussible. That explains the existence of more commercial games with similar mechanisms.

I think I was a bit paranoid with this. The CCGs have influenced me so much that my cardgame designs usually include cards which can be at different "states" (like electronic flip-flops): active, passive, hidden, wounded... Turning or flipping the cards is the simplest way to mark those states (I hate counters!), but I was afraid of the legal consequences of this. From now, I won´t worry.

Thanks again ^-^

Willi_B
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Joined: 12/31/1969
problem with Pseudo-Tapping

Actually, I would worry.

Simply do this, instead.

Mark each card with a "used" counter.

It is the same thing without getting worried... CCG'ers will figure it out.

If your game gets big and you don't, they always could come after you if they so chose to do so.

I REALLY don't understand why people can't just write the rules with a "used" counter and feel a need to try to tempt fate... it's the exact same thing and ridiculus to try. Why risk when you don't have to do so?

Garfield was the first. Tip your hat and move on with your game. Or, you could be the first to ask for his permission to use the patent... which, I believe, has yet to occur.

Zzzzz
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problem with Pseudo-Tapping

Ok first off, like others I am not a lawyer and I have not talked to a lawyer about this patent issue, so dont listen to me!!! lol.

From that I have read and have seen in action, the patent covers a bigger concept than just *tapping* a card. Yes this is part of the patent, but since your game is not a collectable customizable card game you should be ok to use the same concept. Unless of course I missed a patent that specifically covers the generic concept of rotation or positioning of a card. While this patent contains this *tapping* idea, you are not copying the entire patent idea.

And sadly when I think about the idea of *tapping*, it is just a method of tracking a state change in the game. Just like moving a pawn, placing a counter or writing something down on paper.

And I would argue that even basic playing cards games like Euchre (which was out way before this patent) use cards and positioning of these cards to keep track of the game state (in this case the score).

So for me, I think there is a good chance that you will be ok telling the users to mark their card state by rotating the card 90°, flipping the card or whatever. But get into any concept of customizing your deck(s) and then you might be getting a little to close to this patent.

As for the living in Spain, your comment about the "EEUU patent wont affect me.... will it?", might not be true either. From what I have read there are organizations in place that are global, in which multiple countries take part o help track/share/protect patents, copyrights and trademarks. So I would talk to someone more knowledgable about this subject because Spain might be part of such a group and if so, various patents, copyrights and trademarks might be protected *globally*.

Again just my opinion and unless you are going to self publish, dont worry about it. The publishing company will deal with this problem, if it is one.

TrekNoid
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Joined: 10/02/2009
Re: problem with Pseudo-Tapping

Hollyhock wrote:
We all know that Richard Garfield has a patent over the "tapping" mechanism in his MagicTG patent. I read the patent but I´m quite lost with all that legal stuff.

Wizards patent #5662332 can be reviewed here:

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?patentnumber=5,662,332

The lines the jump out at me are:

"The present invention pertains generally to games that combine chance and strategy, and, more particularly, to a card game that utilizes trading cards and to a method of playing the game, as well as alternative embodiments of the same, including different game formats such as electronic games, interactive networks, computer software, board games, and role playing games."

ie... if there's no 'trading' element to your game, I think you're good...

"In accordance with another aspect of the before-mentioned invention, the steps of executing a turn include the sub-steps of tapping the energy elements when used by a command element, the sub-step of tapping comprises flagging the energy elements so all players can see the energy element is being used. In addition, the step of executing a turn further includes the step of untapping an energy element by unflagging the energy element so that all players can see the energy element is available for use. "

""Tapping" is an act of flagging the card to indicate to all players that the energy provided by the card is being used and is no longer available. This can be accomplished in various ways, including placing an object on the card, turning the card over or, more preferably, rotating the card counterclockwise approximately 90 degrees on the playing surface from an original orientation or position."

ie... 'Tapping' does not mean to rotate your card 90 degrees... 'Tapping' means to use the element as an energy element that is consumed by a command element...

The *preferred* method of 'tapping' is to rotate the card 90 degress, but that's indicated as a preference... not a mandatory way...

If you 'tap' resources, and indicate it by putting a coin on the card, that's *still* tapping...

Rotating a card 90 degrees to indicate that it's in a different state is not 'tapping'... In fact, Yugioh uses the rotating of a card 90 degrees to indicate monsters in defense position (as opposed to attack position).

So, I think you're fine...

TrekNoid

Hollyhock
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Joined: 12/31/1969
problem with Pseudo-Tapping

Thanks for the link, TrekNoid, that´s the patent I read, but I don´t know enough English to fully understand such a legal text. *·_·*

So, the key here is in the "collectible" aspect of the game.

I´m shocked that such a general concept as "indicate that a card has been used" is under patent. But, as my game is not collectible, I think I´ll have no trouble with that. :-)

However, after reading the previous posts, and as my game distinguises five "states" of the avatar cards (ready=normal position, killed=discarded, wounded=face down, defending=moved up), I have decided the following:
I´ll mark the "activated state" moving down the card (opposed to defending, moving up the card), disaligning it with the rest of the row. Maybe, in a rulebook diagram I depict the "defending" or "activated" avatars not only moved upwards or downwards, but also slightly turned some degrees (45º), in order to be visually easier to see. If turning the card or placing a counter is no difference for the patent, I prefer this method, in concordance with the rest of the game.

Some of you would wonder why turning a card was so important for me. As this is a multiplayer game, if there are 6 players, with 3 avatars each, before acting you have to know in few seconds the state of 18 cards. Rotating the cards is a very visual effect than can be seen at a first glance from any distance, counters are harder to distinguish over the cards (the cards will have stats and images printed on them).

NetWolf
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Joined: 12/31/1969
problem with Pseudo-Tapping

If you are worried about the visibility of the cards, I immagine you may want to change the 'wounded' mechanic. Face down makes the crad impossible to see. =P

I could see wounded avatars turned sideways (Lying down, resting, bleeding, etc...). If the avatars are preforming a special action that is not a direct attack, I could see you pkacing them below your main line of formation (Those engaged in combat would stand in front of the guy using a spell).

Hollyhock
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Joined: 12/31/1969
problem with Pseudo-Tapping

Good observation. That´s a good idea if wounded avatars could still make or receive actions or attacks.

But in the game, wounded avatars cannot act at all. "Wounded" is exactly the same as "Killed", with the only exception that "Wounded" avatars can be recovered if their god (you) spends some time on it. So, if you cannot make anything with the avatar, the best is keeping it face down. If you´re planning recovering it in the future to make a secret plan you can always look at the card, but otherwise it´s stats are useless.

Perhaps "Wounded/Recovered" are not the best words here... we could call "Killed/Revived" (and rename the first "killed" as "exterminated" or even "forgotten").

The game doesn´t focus on avatars, but on gods. Avatars are useful to collect resources from your worshippers (put cards in play in your hand), steal energy from other players, or block those attacks, allow you to play special cards of global effects (rituals). Later, in the God Phase, the gods "battle" spending these resources, in a Victory Points strange auction. If you run out of avatars, you can´t gain more resources, but you can still win if you have enough VP and play your remaining cards wisely. If a god declines to participate in a fight, he/she can revive all his facedown avatars, but that turn cannot earn VP, so he/she has to decide.

applejuicefool
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Re: problem with Pseudo-Tapping

TrekNoid wrote:

""Tapping" is an act of flagging the card to indicate to all players that the energy provided by the card is being used and is no longer available. This can be accomplished in various ways, including placing an object on the card, turning the card over or, more preferably, rotating the card counterclockwise approximately 90 degrees on the playing surface from an original orientation or position."

ie... 'Tapping' does not mean to rotate your card 90 degrees... 'Tapping' means to use the element as an energy element that is consumed by a command element...

The *preferred* method of 'tapping' is to rotate the card 90 degress, but that's indicated as a preference... not a mandatory way...

If you're worried about it, have "tapping" in your game involve rotating the card 45 degrees...

-AJF

Stony
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Joined: 06/24/2010
problem with Pseudo-Tapping

Okay, my turn to add my 2 cents of input. :)

First off, I am NOT a lawyer or anything that even has the slightest resemblence thereof, so take my input for what it is: My personal take on it.

I think the bits and pieces of the patent provided by TrekNoid, shows some huge holes that can be used to your advantage.

First off, they specify the "nature" of tapping a card, which is inside the Magic game nature. You got some mountains or other sort of mana-providing card. The magicians battling out, can "tap" into this energy in order to cast their spells. So "tapping" is originally thought of as just that: "Tapping into something" as in "draining it", and not as most people se it, when they think "tapping" is actually turning a card sideways. So if your "tapping" is not some sort of mechanism to drain the energy that the card can provide, you are home free.
You can then ask yourself "Why do they also tell you to tap the card, when you are attacking?". Good question, but I see this as an approach to keep it simple, and not using two different words for the same action: Turning the card sideways. Their own patent specifically states that "tapping" is draining the card for its energy.
Besides that, they have even listed how you can "tap" show that the card has been "tapped" for its energy. You can flip it over, you can place an object on it or rotate the card counterclockwise approximately 90 degrees on the playing surface from an original orientation or position. Okay! You can then specifically state that the player will need to rotate the card aproximately 90 degrees clockwise. The opposite of tapping. If they wanted to cover up that hole, they should have stated that "tapping" included those options, but weren't limited to only those.
Besides - as already mentioned - they state that the patent covers: "The present invention pertains generally to games that combine chance and strategy, and, more particularly, to a card game that utilizes trading cards and to a method of playing the game". So if you have no trading, you should be good, BUT they do have that "in general" clause at the top, which they may fall back on, so I actually wouldn't lean too hard on this phrase as a loophole. I think you should rather stick to "tapping" being a way of "draining energy" from a card, and if you do not "drain energy" from your cards, I can't see how you could possibly get in conflict with their patent.

Hmmm. Perhaps I should have gone to law-school? :D

Stony
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Joined: 06/24/2010
problem with Pseudo-Tapping

Oh, and do stay far away from the word "tapping" too ;)

Jonsonite
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Joined: 12/31/1969
problem with Pseudo-Tapping

Don't worry about it. Hasbro hasn't gone after all the other CCGs, and they won't go after yours. While changing the name wouldn't affect the legal standing of a patent, it will irritate them less and make them less likely to go after them. I'd call it exhausting or something generic. I think you're quite safe.

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