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Problem with shared movement

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Fri, 08/26/2005 - 11:18
seo
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I managed to do the very first playtesting of Earthling Snatching Spree (Entry #2 in June GDS), and found some minor and some huge problems I'm trying to solve now.

The main issue was that instead of using the UFO to go capturing earthlings, my daughter cleverly decided to use the avialable movements to get earthlings into her mothership. This is the main flaw I catched, and the one I'm trying to solve. And that is what this post is about.

I can think of several ways to solve it, from simple ones (like limiting the earthling movemente to one step per earthling per turn) to more complex ones (like implementing some random method to determine how the earthlings will move).

Some ideas I had:

    - Just one step per earthling per turn. - Earthlings con be moved only inside some area of the board, but not outside it.
    - Players can't move earthlings towards their mothership, but away from it.
    - Earthling movement is made at the end of the turn, determined by some random method.
I like the random method, but I want something quite simple and straighforward that doesn't take too much time to solve. Something like throwing some dice to determine which earthling to move the direction and the amont of steps. I have 20 earthlings and a square grid board, so what first came to my mind is one d20 to determine which earthling to move, and one d4 to determine the direction. But I would rather go without dice or with d6. Any ideas?

Seo

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Fri, 08/26/2005 - 13:49
#1
OutsideLime
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Problem with shared movement

If you don't mind increasing to 21 Earthlings, here's a partial solution:

Label your earthlings

1-1 1-2 1-3 1-4 1-5 1-6
2-2 2-3 2-4 2-5 2-6
3-3 3-4 3-5 3-6
4-4 4-5 4-6
5-5 5-6
6-6

These are the 21 possible combinations when you roll 2D6.

A side effect of structuring it like this is that there is only a 1/36 chance of rolling any of the doubles (1-1, 2-2, etc), while all other combinations have a 1/18 chance of being rolled.

How can you use this? "Doubles" earthlings will be "slower" according to probability... they will be called to move less frequently than the other Earthlings will in the long run. So, maybe make the slower earthlings worth less points? More points? Or don't bother to affix a balancing system to it and let the players figure out that the Doubles Earthlings are juicy targets?

A know it's a fix to only part of your problem, and not a complete one, but it may be a good point for some brainstorming.

~Josh

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Fri, 08/26/2005 - 17:11
#2
OutsideLime
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Problem with shared movement

Seo,

This problem is intriguing me... there's a lot of "philosophical" talk going on at the forums right now and I infinitely prefer concrete problem-solving such as your situation demands. I am going to read up on your GDS entry to try and understand the framework better, hopefully I can come up with something useful for you.

~Josh

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Fri, 08/26/2005 - 17:30
#3
seo
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Problem with shared movement

I like your idea of "slow" and "quick" earthlings. I'll give it some thought.

I was thinking of reducing the number of earthlings, though, so adding one goes a bit against what I had in mind, but maybe with some tweaking it can be applied.

Seo

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Sat, 08/27/2005 - 13:53
#4
dete
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Problem with shared movement

what if the earthlings moves like
Chess pieces,
and can be manipulated by aliens
and fight each other...

do you know the real story behind King Arthur
and his "magical" sword???
Do you know Merlin's REAL Identity?

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Sat, 08/27/2005 - 17:39
#5
seo
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Problem with shared movement

But that would be a totally different game. I just want to fix the one I already have.

Seo

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Sat, 08/27/2005 - 20:36
#6
Nando
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Problem with shared movement

Isn't it in fact a problem to assign numbers to people and move them based on a roll of dice? When earthlings are "taken", then that does weird things to the probabilities, doesn't it?

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Sat, 08/27/2005 - 23:24
#7
lar
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Problem with shared movement

Seo,

What if you left the movement at 6 spaces but required each player to take turns moving the humans. Only count the human as captured at the end of movement phase. So even if a human moves through the space of a ship, if it's not at the end of all movements, then he doesn't get captured. As you alternate movement of the humans, this will allow for you to decide if you want to go on the offense or move a human as a defensive play. To prevent the players wasting their moves by alternating the spot of one human back and forth, you could create a rule that says the humans must continue to move forwards, left or right but never backwards.

Second thought - what if you had cards with various rules for moving humans. Such as, move any green human (or however you distinguish the humans) 3 spaces. The human must move exactly 3 spaces. Again, if it goes under a ship but doesn't stop, they are not captured. Because you can't control the cards you will get, you will have a harder time forcing the humans into your ship with ease.

Good luck, I like your ideas so far...

Lar

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Sat, 08/27/2005 - 23:26
#8
OutsideLime
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Problem with shared movement

Quote:
Isn't it in fact a problem to assign numbers to people and move them based on a roll of dice? When earthlings are "taken", then that does weird things to the probabilities, doesn't it?

Yes it does.

So another solution must be found.... good eye.

How about this: Label the earthlings 1 through 20. Also have a bag full of chits labelled 1 through 20. When it is time to move an earthling, draw one chit blindly from the bag to determine which one....there are even odds for each earthling. When an earthling is taken, discard his chit from the bag.... this way you stay at even odds for each earthling no matter how many remain.

~Josh

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Wed, 08/31/2005 - 08:48
#9
Lor
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Problem with shared movement

Quote:
But I would rather go without dice or with d6. Any ideas?

Spinner! It's a UFO game. Everybody knows compasses spin wildly in the presence of UFO's!

(One of several mechanisms listed in the Design Tools thread, we're collecting choice strategies.)

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Wed, 08/31/2005 - 11:17
#10
seo
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Problem with shared movement

I think I'l try a combination of Josh and Lar ideas: a bag with four chits per earthling (N,S,E,W), and every turn consists in two "times": first each player draws a chit and moves the corresponding earthling, then the one player does his card managing, tile placing and UFO movement; then another round of earthling moving and next player's turn, and so on. The spinner is a good option too, I might use it instead of the chips. There's a higher risk of unevenness, if the spinner isn't perfectly balanced, though. But I guess that's not really too much of a problem. It certainly adds some extra eye candy, which I like.

If that doesn't work, I'll try a modified original rule, with one step per earthling (so it's ok to move 4 earthling one step towards your ship, but not one earthling 4 steps).

But I rather use the random movement. I think it's better for many reasons:
a) player controled earthling movement might add too much decisions for each player per turn, thus slowing the game.
b) random move will focus the strategy on crew selection, tile placing and UFO movement
c) it adds power to the "hypnos" card, which will become the only way to control earthling movement (even though I will reduce the power to 2 steps, maybe 2 earthlings or one rival UFO)
d) random move migh give a more even game when there are players of different skill levels
e) it's more "real" for earthlings to wonder around instead of helping the aliens abduct them

Thanks to anyone for the ideas.

Seo

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Wed, 08/31/2005 - 12:44
#11
OutsideLime
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Problem with shared movement

Quote:
it's more "real" for earthlings to wander around instead of helping the aliens abduct them

This is key, I think. Something just didn't ring right about allowing players to control the earthlings... they are assumedly wandering dazed around the labyrinth, so their movements should be entirely unstrategic. This choice really makes the Hypnos skill valuable, and streamlines the mechanic with the theme.

The game gets more vitality from the random earthling movement, gets a life of its own aside from the players' influence on it. Testing will of course determine if it works properly.

Be aware that you have increased the random element of what was formerly a very strategic game... but if the earthings don't move far, then the impact is not terribly great. I think that the general effect (as far as hindering players goes) will result in a player having to spend an extra movement or two during a turn to capture an earthling, and this should not prevent a skilled player from doing well.

I have some thoughts about reducing the chit numbers too, let me dwell on it a bit and I'll post again.

~Josh

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Wed, 08/31/2005 - 13:47
#12
Jebbou
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Problem with shared movement

Just an idea,

Could the tiles be colored and have an arrow on one of their side. Players would randomly pick a color (dice or card), and then all earthlings on the tiles of that color move one tile in the direction of the arrow.

Alternatively, there could be four numbered arrows (one on each side of each colored tile). The color AND arrow number would be randomly selected (by cards maybe) to define where the earthlings move. Colors could represent different areas of a city (commercial, residential, park and industrial). Each "Earthling Movement" card could have a color, and number on it and be drawn at start of each turn.

Regards,

JEB

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Wed, 08/31/2005 - 16:02
#13
seo
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Problem with shared movement

OutsideLime wrote:
Quote:
it's more "real" for earthlings to wander around instead of helping the aliens abduct them
This is key, I think. Something just didn't ring right about allowing players to control the earthlings... they are assumedly wandering dazed around the labyrinth, so their movements should be entirely unstrategic. This choice really makes the Hypnos skill valuable, and streamlines the mechanic with the theme.

The game gets more vitality from the random earthling movement, gets a life of its own aside from the players' influence on it. Testing will of course determine if it works properly. Yes, players controling earthling movement was something I didn't like in the original rules, but I just didn't have the time to figure a good random method for controling them at the time of the GDS challenge. But it's definitelly better to let the earthlings move on their own.

OutsideLime wrote:
Be aware that you have increased the random element of what was formerly a very strategic game... but if the earthings don't move far, then the impact is not terribly great. I think that the general effect (as far as hindering players goes) will result in a player having to spend an extra movement or two during a turn to capture an earthling, and this should not prevent a skilled player from doing well.
I agree. I think it will produce some earthling-running-away-just-in-time situations from time to time (which is fun) but nothing that could turn the game into a crazy pure random mess (which would be awful). Best strategies will still lead to winning the game, I guess. It's all up to how much random movement there is, so playtesting should be enough to determine if there is a need to reduce or increase the amount of movement.

OutsideLime wrote:
I have some thoughts about reducing the chit numbers too, let me dwell on it a bit and I'll post again.
OK, great. The more I think of it the more I like the idea of the spinner, though, but if you come up with some good idea for the chits method, it would probably translate into a sleeker spinner.

Jebbou wrote:
Could the tiles be colored and have an arrow on one of their side. Players would randomly pick a color (dice or card), and then all earthlings on the tiles of that color move one tile in the direction of the arrow.
Not a bad idea, but I guess it would take a bit more work on every turn to check which earthlings to move, etc., and I want to keep this as simple as possible (in an ideal world the earthling movemente would be automatic).

Seo

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Wed, 08/31/2005 - 16:08
#14
Jebbou
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Problem with shared movement

If you want it automatic, you could slide tiles such as in "Labyrinth" or "Labyrinth master". In these games, each player insert a tile at one edge, thus pushing all the tiles in one direction. The inserted tile could be random, and the row/column of tiles moved could be randomly selected as well. The earthlings in the row would all be moved one cell in a direction. More than once row/column could be moved each turn (say one row + one cell). Just another suggestion ! (I guess it defeats the purpose of using a labyrinth though)

Also, the colored / numbered tiles has one advantage over dice rolling. Although you need to resolve many movements, only one roll/draw is necessary, thus reducing time to resolve this phase. Also, the colors would make it easy to locate earthlings that must move.

Hoping it was helpful,

JEB

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Wed, 08/31/2005 - 16:38
#15
seo
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Problem with shared movement

Jebbou wrote:
If you want it automatic, you could slide tiles such as in "Labyrinth" or "Labyrinth master". In these games, each player insert a tile at one edge, thus pushing all the tiles in one direction. The inserted tile could be random, and the row/column of tiles moved could be randomly selected as well. The earthlings in the row would all be moved one cell in a direction. More than once row/column could be moved each turn (say one row + one cell). Just another suggestion ! (I guess it defeats the purpose of using a labyrinth though)

Also, the colored / numbered tiles has one advantage over dice rolling. Although you need to resolve many movements, only one roll/draw is necessary, thus reducing time to resolve this phase.

Hoping it was helpful,

JEB

I'm not sure if I understand your idea. What I want to be random is the movement of the earthling tokens, not the tiles. Tile placing/moving is another part of the game.

I understand what you say about just one roll to resolve all the movements, though. One of the first ideas I had was to have, say, 3 earthling of each of 6 colors, and use two dice: one to select the color, so three earthlings move each time, and another to decide the movement direction.

Right now I feel inclined to each player drawing a chit or spinning the spinner, so it's one (or two, or three) earthlings moving per player. This not only makes the movement randomic, but also lets every player have something to do even durng the other players turn, so there's less downtime.

Seo

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