RPG design ideas......I want to know what you guys think

The perception of RPG has been tainted by the Computer RPGs (CRPG) like diablo and such. As a Game Master of over 10 years experence I can say that the "repitition" is not nessesary in the Pen and Paper (PnP) style RPGs and is just due to bad running of the game. I have on many occasions run games that did not use any monsters or combat at all, and still the players had fun dispite the system being more designed for the combat than general role playing (eg Cyberpunk 2020).

With CRPGs the story writer (level designers, etc) are mainly limited by the interface and the code of the game. With a CRPG the player is limited in what option they can choose, as to write code and create an interface for large numbers of options is very diffucult to do. With the PnP gmaes they are only limited by their imaginination and the mechanics of the game, and a game master can make ruleings for situations not covered by the game mechanics.

Board games are like computer games in this respect, as you want the players to choose from a specific set of options. Games like Go and chess might seem at first to have a lot of options that the player can choose, but this is not nessesarily true. In Go you only have the option to place a piece on the board (in fact this is not a choice as you have to do it), but the location you place it has impact within the game space (so the relative placement is the choice but not dictated by the mechanics). In chess you have the choice of which piece you move, and the direction you move it. (the relative position is again not the designer's choice but is determined by the layout of the board).

Most CRPGs come down to a tactical simulation coupled with puzzle solveing. In a PnP rpg you can include social interactions and other hard to simulate (because humans and computers are different) actions.

In the Cyberpunk system there are no "levels" as such, that are found in CRPGs. They use a skill based system where the player improves their skill by spending experience (call Improvement Points). The range that the skill values cover and the mechanics of the game still allow a character with a low level of skill to (verry occasionally) beat a character with a high level of skill. Thus a progression of tougher and tougher set of opponents is not nessesary.

A relitively weak opponent may have the nessesary skills values to stand toe to toe with a more tougher opponent, by specialising in certain skills if the tougher and more experenced character generalises their skills (ofcourse with cyberpunk, your equipment can make a lot of difference to your combat abilities - big guns and tough armor for example).

Because in an RPG the main mission/quest designer is the players, as a designer you should leave it to them to create the missions that suit their gaming group. You should foccus more on the mechanics of the game so as to try and open up the options on how the game can be played, rather than limiting them.

I just wanted to know what you guys think are some important things that RPGs should include.

thanks again
sfictre

OK, I couldn't resist. I dragged out one of my journal entries. There's another one that's less relevant, but you can always look it up if you're interested.

====================
(I'm not sure these thoughts are appropriate for a *board* game journal, as tabletop RPGs don't fall cleanly into that category. I beg the pardon of anyone who thinks they don't belong here...)

=== INTRODUCTION ===
I've been playing tabletop RPGs for more than 20 years -- mostly as a GM. I've run and played under a lot of systems, Hero being my favorite by a long way. If you've played Hero, you know that it's table light and formula heavy, suitable for virtually any genre, and marvelously flexible.

I point this out so people won't think I'm hostile toward complex systems. In fact, I love them, provided the complexity isn't buried in endless charts (*cough* Rolemaster *cough* -- though I admit that I owned the basic Rolemaster set and loved it dearly...).

Last year, I wrapped up a campaign that had run for about 5 years. It started under Hero, and finished under several experimental systems of my own design. They all pretty much sucked, but they all strove for the same goal: reduce the rolls and system overhead to allow focus on the story.

Which brings us to this journal entry: if I was to design the simplest functional RPG system, what would I include?

=== SYSTEM GOALS ===
The system should:

1) Not get bogged down with too many numbers.
In the end, most good GMs assign modifiers to make various maneuvers appropriately difficult ("Oh, you're aiming for the head? Well, that's an additional -4"). If GMs are going to "cook the books" to force an appropriately dramatic roll, why bother with fixed modifiers and skill values at all?

2) Encourage the creation of a character's story, rather than his scores.
When players focus on rolling stats or buying powers, they lose sight of the qualities that make characters interesting -- personality strengths and flaws, existing relationships, etc.

3) Play fast.
This is sort of a corollary to #1 -- if you don't have a bunch of numbers to manipulate, the resolving conflict shouldn't involve too many roles.

4) Provide a clear means of resolving disputes and determining the extent of success or failure (e.g., "You seriously wounded the goblin", "You reprogrammed the ship's computer, but it took a long time").

With those points in mind, let's examine a possible solution (and yes, I'm making this up as I go along...).

=== SYSTEM STRUCTURE ===
Let's refer to the system as the BB RPG ("BB" for "Bare Bones"). In it:

1) You describe your character with words, not numbers.
2) A single die roll resolves each conflict, determining both success and degree of success (i.e., the more by which you make your roll, the more dramatic your success).
3) The more accurately players describe their actions, the less leeway the GM has to interpet the rolls during conflict resolution.

** Some examples **
Character generation:
Grant is a space trader who dabbles in smuggling.
He is a skilled pilot with a quick mind and good reflexes. He is tall and lean, but slightly stronger than his build implies. He's a fair shot and a decent brawler, but prefers to charm his way out of a fight if possible.

(At this point, the GM rules that Grant needs some flaws to balance his resume.)

The son of a gas freighter, Grant lacks higher education. He lacks the training required for advanced computer operations or complex mechanical tasks.

A few smuggling runs gone wrong have earned him a modest bounty on several worlds, and his ship, The Alamo, is marked for detention on Federation registries.

While not particularly fond of people, Grant loves animals -- especially his three-legged dog, Bo. If Grant witnesses animal cruelty, he is likely to repay those responsible with similar treatment. Heaven help the men that lay a hostile finger on Bo...

(The GM approves the writeup, but asks the player to provide details on some of the smuggling runs "gone bad" -- including names and background on the people wronged in those incidents. He then provides a short summary of Grant's significant skills.)

Grant
Tall/thin
Medium strength
Above-average intelligence
Above-average reflexes
Quite charming

Expert pilot
Competent marksman
Competent brawler

Uneducated
Protective of animals
Indifferent towards people

Wanted by the Federation
Wanted by x,y,z (old smuggling enemies)

Notice -- no numbers. It's tempting to quantify things more completely, but let's resist the urge. "Fuzziness" is part of the system's beauty -- it provides the GM with some latitude when telling his story.

Resolving conflicts:
Here, we need some numbers. The entire numerical system for the game rests in 1 chart:

Task difficulty success (on d10)
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Can't possibly fail 9, 9, 8-
Sure thing 9, 8-
Laughably easy 9, 5-
Very easy 8-
easy 7-
moderately easy 6-
slightly easy 5-
slightly hard 4-
moderately hard 3-
hard 2-
very hard 1-
extremely hard 0,5-
unbelievably hard 0,1-,
next to impossible 0,0,1-

In this table, read '-' as "or less".

Entries like "9, 5-" mean "if your first roll is anything but a 9, you succeed. If it's a 9, roll again and succeed on a 5 or less" (i.e., dice explode upward).

Entries like "0, 1-" mean "first you have to roll a zero, then you have to roll a 1 or less" (i.e., dice explode downward).

This table isn't meant to be realistic or even very meaningful. It's sole purpose is to give players with a well-defined way to resolve conflicts. In the end, it's up to the GM to define the difficulty of any task, given the various conditions of the moment.

Using the system:
Now, if Grant is trapped behind some boxes in a cargo bay, engaged in a firefight with some Federation thugs, the encounter might go something like this:

GM: you're faster than these guys, but they outnumber you. One guy is laying down suppression fire. You're not sure what the other one is doing.

Grant: Crap. I'll take a quick peak over the crates and see if I can spot the second guy.

GM: Hmm...there's a lot of fire. That's going to be pretty hard, even for you. Roll it.

["pretty hard" requires a roll of 3- for success]

Grant: 4. Did I see anything?

GM: not much -- a quick glimpse of something moving to your left. Then a bolt singes your hair and you duck back down.

[Here, the GM has ruled that the 4 is close enough to give Grant partial information, since '3' would have provided "normal" data.]

Grant: OK -- I can't hang around here. I'm going to fire some blind shots over the crates, then dive for the service duct on my right.

GM: It's pretty unlikely that you'll hit the Fed with any shots, and that duct is small -- not easy to squeeze into quickly. Give me two rolls.

Grant: Let's see...I got a 5 and a 4.

[The GM consults the chart and sees that Grant can probably suppress the Fed with that roll -- he *is* a good shot, after all -- but the 4 isn't quite enough to let him get all the way into the duct.]

GM: OK, the first Fed ducks back behind the door, but the second guy manages to get around the crates and squeeze off a shot as you slide into the crawl space. It's a tough shot (rolls a 3). It burns a hole in the wall next to your hand as you slip inside.

*******

Granted, this is a trivial example -- one the system could hardly fail. The lack of "miniatures rules" might render the system useless. Then again, most people have a strong sense of "what could really happen" within their games, which should allow the GM to assess a reasonable difficulty factor in almost any situation.

I'd like to run a game with just this system as presented and see if it makes for a boring game (not enough meaningful rolls) or an interesting one (quick tempo with the emphasis on detailed action descriptions).

More later, if I get the chance.

K.

Hey sfictre,

Well...that's not exactly true -- but it illuminates a lot about your questions.

RPGs consist of two distinct parts -- the game system, and the campaign world. The game system is a rule set that allows players and GMs to simulate a particular vision of reality. The campaign world is the specific reality in which the GMs stories will take place.

Early RPGs -- and quite a few current ones -- mix these indiscriminantly: the game system is so tightly bound to the campaign world that you can pretty much play *only* one kind of campaign.

Several "generic" RPGs have come out -- most notably GURPS and the Hero System. Theoretically, these allow you to build *any* kind of campaign world using only one game system (though my experience with GURPS suggests that the system is not really robust enough for this, and each "campaign book" contains many rule fixes for playing a particular genre -- though this may have been fixed in later editions).

More experienced GMs (like Infernal and me) usually grow out of playing a single genre and rarely buy campaign books -- we have our own worlds and stories to tell. That is why we both wrote about game systems.

So, when you ask "what makes or breaks an RPG", you're really asking two questions:

1) What makes or breaks a good RPG system?
2) What makes or breaks a good campaign world?

The answer to #1 varies, and both Infernal and I have given our 2 cents above.

The answer to #2 is harder to quantify, and has a lot in common with the question, "What makes a good book?" In your case, since you're focused primarily on fantasy worlds, you're really asking, "What makes for an interesting fantasy setting?" The truth is that almost *anything* can be interesting -- spells or no spells, fixed character classes or "build-your-own" characters, etc. What matters most is that you have a deep back-story to the world, plausible characters within the world, and ways to involve your players in the world's meaningful events.

Sound vague? That's because it is. Crafting a good campaign world is more art than science. You can't really put together a checklist of levels, dungeon types, and spells and guarantee a good game (if you could, D&D would be universally enjoyable, but never was there a system more dependent on the GM's talents).

If you're basing your designs on CRPGs like Diablo and Final Fantasy, I recommend you get some distance from those. They are more about manipulating your inventory that experiencing a story. Instead, find a used copy of Ico and rent or buy Shadow of the Colossus. You might also snag Tenchu or Mark of Kri. I agree with Infernal the CRPGs are extremely limited hollow. However, I believe there are good interactive story experienced outside of the CRPG genre (in the titles I've just mentioned). They're not perfect, but they'll help you understand how you can create a guided interactive story for your players.

Then you just need to figure out a tabletop game system that delivers a similar experience.

Good luck!

Mark

There is no need for a set of rules for NPCs. NPC should be characters run by the game master. They should follow the rules for characters, you just don't need to put in as much detail as with characters. For example:
In a Cyberpunk 2020 game I am running at the moment, I have an NPC call Interloc. Now he is a solo (fighter/mercenary type), and follows the exact smae rules as the player whose character is also a solo. The only differentce is that I didn't put a lot of skills in (only the ones I am going to use for Interloc) and gave him a standard set of equipement and cybernetincs. It can take about 1/2 an hour to an hour to make a full CP2020 character, but it only took me 10 mins to make Interloc.

If another player joined our gaming group, I could, with only a few modifications, (makign sure that the number of points used to make the character is the same as the other PCs so that the game is fair on the other players) allow that new player to play Interloc as a PC. So, although Interloc is an NPC, it is also following the same rules as the PCs. The only real difference between NPCs and PC is that the Game Master controls the NPCs and makes the decisions for them (all of them - it is a big job).

In esscence the Game master is just like a realy powerful "artificial intelegence" program for the roleplaying game ;D.

After reading more of your posts, I think we're all miscommunicating a bit. Based off your description of the game you'd like to design, I would *not* classify it as a tabletop RPG. It sounds more like a classic "dungeon crawler". This style of game has much in commong with computer "role playing games" such as Diablo. They typically focus on fighting monsters, collecting treasures, and completing very concrete goals like "retrieve the quest item for NPC 'x'".

Notice: the computer RPG corresponds to the tabletop "dungeon crawler" -- not the tabletop RPG. I would argue that there has never been a true computer version of a tabletop RPG. Even MUDs and MMPORPGs don't qualify -- they are mostly chat rooms attached to huge dungeon crawlers (yes, I know this isn't fair -- there are probably actual RPGs out there on the 'Net somewhere).

It sounds like you want to take the Dungeon Crawl to the next level by providing multiple scenario packs. This is commendable. It also sounds like you would eliminate the GM if you could (more evidence that this is a dungeon crawler and not an RPG).

I'm not criticizing here -- I'm trying to establish your exact question so you get the information you're after.

Regarding foul play, I wouldn't worry about it. You can ruin a good game design trying to engineer around cheating -- and people will just find ways to exploit your work-arounds.

As for supplying AI to run your monsters, check out this thread
http://www.bgdf.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=3388
for a discussion on that.
Once again, you'll find Infernal and me piping up about using your players' brains instead. :-)

Now...if you're question is "what makes a great dungeon crawler", I'd say you've got a good list already:

1) Give players lots of ways to customize their characters.
2) Give players many different scenario packs to keep the game fresh.
3) Provide lots of small ways to advance the characters -- this way they make constant progress without getting tremendously powerful too quickly.
4) Magic is probably a must for a fantasy dungeon crawler, but you should try to find a unique way to present it.
etc -- but these are all things about which you've already thought.

Perhaps most importantly, try to design a system robust enough that it could support multiple genres. Sure, you like magic, but after writing your 50th "slay the orcs and rescue the princess" scenario pack, you might want to do something different -- like a post-holocaust undead western game. Keep that possibility open and make sure your rules can accomodate such a setting.

Good luck!

K.

All games (except abstract games) have roleplay elements, however I have always calsafied roleplaying games as ogames where the main focus of game play is on playing that role.

Sure, go ahead, blab my ideas everywhere.

~Josh

Sure, go ahead, blab my ideas everywhere.

~Josh

Did I say "post-holocaust undead western game"? I meant "Lovecraftian Yakuza romantic fantasy."

Er...wait...aren't you doing one of those, too?

No need to apologize! You're coming from a computer game background -- the vocab is just a bit different.

But, yes, your classification is good. It's a fuzzy division, though. I tend to think that RPGs emphasize who the characters are and how they interact with the world's story. Dungeon Crawlers emphasize miniatures-rules-like mechanics and emphasize collecting items, leveling up, and killing monsters. Games like D&D have heavy overlap between the two, which confuses the issue a lot.

As for good XBox games with strong story elements...that's a toughy. Really, Ico and Shadow of the Colossus are the best "story games" out there (in terms of hiding the explicity rules and making you feel like part of a natural world).

Games like Jade Empire aren't bad -- but they still have a lot of leveling and character twiddling. I'd say Jade Empire straddles the RPG/Dungeon Crawler genre all right. Tenchu: Return from Darkness has no explicit RPG rules, but allows you to equip your character and play through levels in a pretty free-form fashion. It also has a decent story. Unfortunately for you, it's not western medieval fantasy (but then, neither is Jade Empire). Morrowind is another 1/2 RPG, 1/2 dungeon crawler that isn't bad.

These aren't very good games to emulate if you want to make a dungeon crawler. They lean more toward the RPG side of things. XMen Legends and Balder's Gate, Dark Alliance are better examples of Dungeon Crawler games (though they are quite story heavy, for dungeon crawlers).

I hope that helps.

Mark

My definition would be :

RPG: Does not necessarily need a board or a table to play.

Dungeon crawler : Absolutely need a board or other material to play.

In my PnPRPG game I use a plot building method that allows my to rapidly (and systematicly) create plots for games. Now you will not nessesarily be able to use this to create dynamic stories for you game but it might spark some ideas.

Step 1:
Create a series of NPC (and monsters) to fit the following set (more than one NPC can be in each category):
Plot Giver
Villain
Facilitator
Complicator

The plot giver and villain are fairly straight forward, but the villain may not be someone you have to kill, but maybe someone you have to out wit, or convince the to do/think something, etc. The plot giver is the NPC the introduces the characters to the quest.

The facilitator is someone (NPC) that can help the player's overcome certain obstacles in the quest. Also they can be the means that the players can resolve plot twists and such.

The complicator is the NPC or monsters (or even event) that are obstacles in the quest. They can also be the creators of plot twists. They do not always have to be enemies, they can also be allies, or even the facilitator (or any of the above categories).

Step 2:
Once you have your list of NPCs then you need to give them some reason to be involved in the plot, usually by their relationships between other NPCs.

Step 3:
Lay out the roles in a line starting with the plot giver and ending with the villain. The other roles can be laid out in any order you like. This order is the order that you want event to happen in. An example might be: Plot Giver -> Complicator -> Facilitator -> Villain.

This method allows fast plot generation while still allowing good flexability. There is more detail (and steps) that I use, but they would take more space than is good in this forum.

I might one day write up the method properly...

My sugestion is that you try the d20 system. I think the high-magic FR D&D should be right up your alley (although I strongly suggest you start with just the D&D core rules...)

I myself never played Forgotten Realms becouse there's waaaaaay too much magic. It's simply not grim and dark enough for my liking. But I've read several FR-resources and used/modified various stuff I found in the sourcebooks...

So, what do you need to get started?
1] The rules.
2] A group or !!DEDICATED!! players.
3] Time.

°° The rules:
The PHB (player's handbook) to get you started cost about 30 US dolars (if I'm not mistaken). You can also use the SRD (= System Reference Document), which is a stripped version of the PHB + some other stuff (leave out psionics, epic and devine for starters; it will be meaty enough without these). The SRD is not very handy to look up rules during play, so I'd advise to buy a PHB.
°° Players:
These might or might not be the hardest thing to get... If you find people that say they want to play this kind of game, make sure that they understand that this game can easily go on for a couple of years (that is if you play regularly...) Also make sure that they are willing to read through the PHB before they even start to play. Try to have a fixed day in the week (or every two weeks) to play, so they have no excuse that they couldn't plan their gaming-session.
°° Time:
The only thing you need now is time. Time to play (=> let's say 4 to 10 hours per session, depending on the group...) and time to prepare adventures (if you are going to be the gamemaster)

...You also need a table and some chairs...

Why start with plain D&D? It's probably the most played system. After trying this, it will be easy to know where to go next. (most people will be able to tell you how a system compares to plain D&D)

Well, that's just what I think you are looking for. I may be wrong, but I feel I'm not. If you want to design a system yourself or make a boardgame that is fairly like a tabletop RPG, it will certainly help you a lot if you tried several systems.

Cheese.

Sfictre,

Are you making a board game, or a role-playing game, or a computer game, or some combination between them?

A lot of the features you seem interested in including in your game (extensive customization, wide variety of stats that affect character abilities, long-term levelling) are the type of stuff that can usually only be smoothly applied in a computer game or as an intensive RPG featuring a GM. What is the basic project you have in mind?

~Josh

Most game and hobby shops will stock D&D. The Forgotten Realms is a supliment to D&D. You will have to by the Core D&D books (Player's Handbook, Dungeonmaster's Guide and Monster Manual) before you will be able to use the Forgotten Realms Source Books.

If you buy the 3 core books then you will have all the books that you need to play D&D with (you will also need a set of polyhedral dice - D4, D6, D8, D10, D12 and D20).

It is my suggestion that you buy the core books and play a few sessions with them untill you learn the core rules before you start with any supliments to D&D, as ther are quite a few rules to learn, and if you have not played a PnPRPG before then there will be a steep learning curve just to play the basic game.

Where abouts do you live in Australia (I live in Canberra)?