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Song of the Dwarf Lords

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Chad_Ellis
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Joined: 12/31/1969

I'm putting the final bits on version 0.1 of Song of the Dwarf Lords now, and wanted to put the idea up here for feedback.

The plot to the game is that the players are dwarven lords with one goal in life -- to gain enough honor within the dwarven community to have a song written in their honor.

During the game, two major activities take place: the contest of honor and the acquisition of land regions. (The land regions become available because the local dwarven communities want the oversight of a powerful dwarf lord.)

Each turn begins with one land card being dealt face-up from the deck. (The land cards correspond to hex regions on a map board.) Each card produces a certain amount of gold and honor each turn. (Most lands produce 3-5 gold and no honor; lands that are adjacent to elves or goblins produce more gold but cost honor, while lands that are adjacent to orcs have an upkeep cost in gold but gain you honor.)

Then players hold the Contest of Gifts. The players offer gifts of gold in auction format. Bids go clockwise (the player who makes the first bid rotates with each auction); after your initial offer (which may be anything) on your turn you may either increase your bid so that it at least matches another, higher bid or you may pass. Once you have passed, your bid is locked in place.

Once all the gifts are locked, the player who gave the most receives 7 honor, followed by 4, 2, 1 and 0. Moreover, whoever gave the most gets first choice of the lands to be taken. Then the gifts are received with the largest gift going to the player who currently has the lowest honor, etc.

(The hope is that this will prevent any runaway leader issues, since the person who accumulates the most honor will be getting the least gold for future actions while the person with the least will receive the most.)

Gold can also be used to hire and maintain soldiers; soldiers can in turn be used to "acquire" land that has not yet come up for control. Thus, it should be possible for a player to attempt a "low gift" strategy whereby he tries to make money in the contest and use that money to build up an army with which to expand his holdings. This is also the only way that human-controlled lands can be gained. (I'm also considering the possibility of conquering regions controlled by Orcs if your army is big enough.) At the end of the game each land controlled is worth one additional honor. (The game ends when all dwarven lands are controlled.)

My hope is that the game will allow multiple strategies and have a significant level of player interaction yet be playable within an hour.

My basic concerns at this point (gotta love the concerns you have before you even playtest once!) are:

1. Time. There are 55 land regions, so a five-player game would have 11 Contests if there were no annexing of land. I'm guessing that annexing land might bring this down to 8 or 9. Even if players collect their money/honor and handle their armies pretty quickly, I don't know if a game with 8-9 auctions can be finished in an hour. And, of course, a smaller group of players would have more Contests. (An earlier version of this game handled the Contest with a blind bid, but that had its own problems so in the redesign I wanted to try an open bid.)

2. Keeping one strategy from being dominant. The nice thing about auction games is that they tend to self-correct imbalances -- i.e. if it's more attractive to acquire honor in the Contest than to try to accumulate money, people will gift more to get the honor and the rewards of gifting less will go up. However, there's no such control over the military route.

Questions and comments are more than welcome.

Hugs,
Chad

sedjtroll
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Song of the Dwarf Lords

This sounds pretty good, actually. What exactly are the gifts that the low bidders get? Are they the high bidders bids?

Do players start with land? If not, that could be one way to shorten the game length without having to reduce the amount of land tiles... give each player 1 or 2 land cards to begin with. In that case the starting land should probably be seperate from the land deck and they should all be equivalent (identical would be easiest).

You didn't really say exactly how the military and board-positional stuff works, but I imagine it's a big factor with adjacency having a bearing on income and with soldiers that can attack lands. I'd like to hear a little more about that. Are the hexes laid out in a standard formation, or are they like settlers tiles which you lay out (making the board different every time)? Are the land cards specific to a particular land tile? Or do you win the land card and then somehow associate it with a particular land tile that's on the board? Or are the land cards you bid on actually the tiles themselves (with the income and honor printed on them)?

I think that last one sounds like it would work well- remove the deck from the game, just have face down hex tiles, and when you win a bid you place the tile. You could have placement rules based on adjacency, or just the rules you stated- more income if next to Elves, upkeep and honor if next to Orcs, both if next to both I presume.

I don't know where the elf and orc and human tiles come from, but they could be in the pile as well, so you're not always bidding on land that will get you income- youmight want to win the Elf land and place it next to your land to increase your income, etc. Maybe this is what you have already.

Let us know how this turns out.

Chad_Ellis
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Song of the Dwarf Lords

sedjtroll wrote:
This sounds pretty good, actually. What exactly are the gifts that the low bidders get? Are they the high bidders bids?

Yes. At the moment I've got the highest bid being taken as an offering to the gods and the priests making a gift of two gold. (Thus the highest gift is replaced with two gold. I don't know if this is necessary, but I don't want gold just to accumulate and at the moment the only signficant drain on gold is soldier hiring/upkeep.)

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Do players start with land? If not, that could be one way to shorten the game length without having to reduce the amount of land tiles... give each player 1 or 2 land cards to begin with. In that case the starting land should probably be seperate from the land deck and they should all be equivalent (identical would be easiest).

At the moment, no. I definitely considered this but it has some potential problems with it, since geography does matter. If there are too many lands in the game I can just reduce the overall number. Of course, 55 is a nice number of cards to have (from a production perspective), but if I wanted to cut the lands down to, say, 40, I could use the other 15 cards to do something else like Quests, which were in the original version.

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You didn't really say exactly how the military and board-positional stuff works, but I imagine it's a big factor with adjacency having a bearing on income and with soldiers that can attack lands. I'd like to hear a little more about that.

Ask and ye shall receive! :) After players acquire the lands that come up naturally each turn, they have the opportunity to annex lands as well. In order to annex a land you must control at least two adjacent lands and the total of your soldier units plus adjacent controlled lands must be at least six. (Annex isn't really the right word -- in terms of the story, you're persuading the local dwarves that you're a good leader, rather than muscling them.) Human and dwarvish lands can be annexed.

A player wishing to annex a land must also pay 2 gold. A second land that turn costs an additional 4, then 8, 16, etc. Also, the players take turns indicating which land(s) they play to annex and pay when they do so, and if more than one tries to annex the same land it remains independent. Thus, if you try to take three lands on your turn (spending 14 gold) I might then try to annex one of them that same turn (spending just 2 gold) to stop you from taking one of them.

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Are the hexes laid out in a standard formation, or are they like settlers tiles which you lay out (making the board different every time)? Are the land cards specific to a particular land tile? Or do you win the land card and then somehow associate it with a particular land tile that's on the board? Or are the land cards you bid on actually the tiles themselves (with the income and honor printed on them)?

The land hexes aren't separate tiles -- just hex-shapes on the playing board. The main board is a map of the dwarven lands, with surrounding human, orc, goblin and elvish lands. The map is divided into hexes, and each card represents one hex. It is entirely possible that later on I'll abandon hexes and go for a more "natural" mix of shapes for regions.

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I think that last one sounds like it would work well- remove the deck from the game, just have face down hex tiles, and when you win a bid you place the tile. You could have placement rules based on adjacency, or just the rules you stated- more income if next to Elves, upkeep and honor if next to Orcs, both if next to both I presume.

That would be a different (but quite interesting) spin on the game. My thought was to have a static map rather than make this a tile placement game. (I love tile placement games, but would really worry about the game length if that were added in as a factor.)

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I don't know where the elf and orc and human tiles come from, but they could be in the pile as well, so you're not always bidding on land that will get you income- you might want to win the Elf land and place it next to your land to increase your income, etc. Maybe this is what you have already.quote]

Hopefully I've done a better job of explaining the physical layout this time than last. Fixed map, divided into regional hexes, with the dwarf hexes represented by cards. Of course, now my mind is wandering around thinking about the consequences of a game in which you bid for productive resources as well as the right to place non-productive resources that could enhance your productive resources! :)

From a story perspective, however, I think I like the way I've got it. The idea that the dwarf who makes the largest gift in the Contest (thus displaying the greatest wealth) would get first choice of which region to gain control over feels intuitive to me -- he's shown he's rich/powerful so the dwarves of that region are psyched to have him in charge. Having the largest gift enable you to decide where the elves lived seems less coherent somehow. (My brain is still wandering with it, but I'm thinking of it for a different storyline/game.)

Hugs,
Chad

sedjtroll
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Song of the Dwarf Lords

Chad_Ellis wrote:
At the moment I've got the highest bid being taken as an offering to the gods and the priests making a gift of two gold. (Thus the highest gift is replaced with two gold. I don't know if this is necessary, but I don't want gold just to accumulate and at the moment the only signficant drain on gold is soldier hiring/upkeep.)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. In fact, I am sure I don't understand what you mean. I;m still foggy on who gets what in this phase.

It sounds like everybody bids gold, and everybody loses the gold that they bid and gets in return some Honor depending on the relative size of their bid. Then there's some gift-giving and I'm not sure who's doing the giving or what the gifts are, but evidently the low bidder gets the bestest gift and the high bidder gets the worst. This is what I don't understand.

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Ask and ye shall receive! :)

Thanks, it's even more interesting now :)

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A player wishing to annex a land must also pay 2 gold. A second land that turn costs an additional 4, then 8, 16, etc.

The idea of annexing seems really good, so when bidding you don't want someone else to surround your land as that means they could annex you. Goves good reason to bid. However I don't know about the multiple annexes and especially the cancelling an annex. You said that to annex a land you have to have at least 2 adjacent lands and 0-4 soldiers (to make a total of lands + soldiers = 6). This seems fine, the more you surround a land the less soldiers are needed... I think you're right about the theme and the word "annex" (and the use of soldiers). The solders could easily be Monuments or something else dwarves might like. maybe monuments to the Dwarf Lord is an indication that it's a good dwarf lord and the 'annexees' would be that much happier to serve him.

So then you have the cancelling effect if multiple lords try and annex the same territory. It's obviously possible for 2 or even 3 people to 'qualify' to annex a certain territory. I'm not sure the specifics of your mechanic, but it sounds like everyone on their turn 'announces' their annex(es), but when does that 'resolve'? Also it sounds like that's something you can do as an action on your turn. Does it occur that whenever 2 players qualify to annex a land they both do so as a matter of course, lest allow the opponent to get it? I'm not sure I like (or understand fully) the annex system.

Have you considered a scenario where Annexes are more like triggered effects? When a player wins the bid on a territory, could that trigger the annex of another territory (if the total of adjacent lands and 'soldiers' are now 6)? Maybe it could also trigger on purchasing a soldier, such that any time the conditions for annex are met, the territory is auto-annexed. There could also be a way to 'defend' against that by purchasing soldiers or monuments or whatever in that territory, so the conditions to annex would be more like (adjacent territories + soldiers on those territories = 6 + defending soldiers). This might work better in the 'place the tile' format than the 'premade board' format, but I think it could work for either one.

Note that in a tile placing format, placing a non-dwarven land helps protect against being annexed... although it would also be neat if elves and orcs could annex dwarven lands (if there are enough Elf territories around a territory, it would become Elven and noone would control it). Elf tiles and Orc tiles could come with a number of soldiers on them, as well as restrictions on where they can be placed.

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The land hexes aren't separate tiles -- just hex-shapes on the playing board.

I see why you would want this layout, but does it run the risk of the game being the same every time?

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sej wrote:
I think that last one sounds like it would work well- remove the deck from the game, just have face down hex tiles, and when you win a bid you place the tile. You could have placement rules based on adjacency, or just the rules you stated- more income if next to Elves, upkeep and honor if next to Orcs, both if next to both I presume.

That would be a different (but quite interesting) spin on the game.
If you want to talk about this in particulr further, send me a PM. I've ogot some ideas that are a continuation of this.

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The idea that the dwarf who makes the largest gift in the Contest (thus displaying the greatest wealth) would get first choice of which region to gain control over feels intuitive to me

Wait, I thought you didn't get choice of which region you controlled. I thought you got control of the region up for bid. Did I get that wrong?

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Having the largest gift enable you to decide where the elves lived seems less coherent somehow. (My brain is still wandering with it, but I'm thinking of it for a different storyline/game.)

True, this might mean a bit of re-theming, but it certainly sounds like it could be worth it, doesn't it?

Here's a crazy idea... I'm just thinking out loud here- this idea is pretty far removed from your Dwarf Lord game.

What if players controlled a Lord of each race, and so depending on what tile came up for bid the round would be played as a "Dwarf round" or an "Elf Round" or whatever. So if an Elf tile comes up, you bid on it (I suppose the money would be common to all of your lords, maybe it's a fellowship or alliance), and then you place it wherever you want (adjaceny to your dwarven land might help you get income, etc). Ooo, that could be interesting too- clumping Elven lands together allows you to annex other lands into your elven kingdom, but then there's bonuses if you have Elves next to non-elves...

Then it might also be interesting for the Orc Kingdoms to be unfriendly with the elves, men, and dwarves (this sounds like Lord of the Rings!), but you still have to place them... maybe you bid NOT to take Orc lands (like in High Society where you bid not to take the "-5" and the "1/2" tiles) And then if you get it it has to be placed adjacent to your kingdom (not just stick it on your opponent), but if you can get them too then great.

Chad_Ellis
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Song of the Dwarf Lords

sedjtroll wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
At the moment I've got the highest bid being taken as an offering to the gods and the priests making a gift of two gold. (Thus the highest gift is replaced with two gold. I don't know if this is necessary, but I don't want gold just to accumulate and at the moment the only signficant drain on gold is soldier hiring/upkeep.)

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. In fact, I am sure I don't understand what you mean. I;m still foggy on who gets what in this phase.

It sounds like everybody bids gold, and everybody loses the gold that they bid and gets in return some Honor depending on the relative size of their bid. Then there's some gift-giving and I'm not sure who's doing the giving or what the gifts are, but evidently the low bidder gets the bestest gift and the high bidder gets the worst. This is what I don't understand.

OK, I guess I still need to work on my explanations. In the rules it's a lot clearer, I promise! :P

The players offer gifts of gold -- essentially bidding for honor -- and the highest bid gets the most honor. Then the players receive the gifts they've made in ascending order of honor. However, before that happens the largest gift is taken as an offering to the Dwarven gods and replaced with two gold.

So let's say A, B and C are playing. A bids 5, B bids 10 and C bids 12. C receives 7 honor, B receives 4 and A receives 2. The 12 is replaced by a 2. At this point, whichever player has the lowest total honor would receive the biggest remaining gift, i.e. 10 gold. Then the next would get five and the player with the highest honor would get 2. (If the addition of soldiers to the game is enough to stop the money from exploding I may eliminate the whole "biggest gift replaced by two gold" thing.

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A player wishing to annex a land must also pay 2 gold. A second land that turn costs an additional 4, then 8, 16, etc.

The idea of annexing seems really good, so when bidding you don't want someone else to surround your land as that means they could annex you.

Woah, another miscommunication. You can only annex uncontrolled lands. This is a way for a dwarf lord with a big army to acquire more than one land per turn, not for the dwarf lords to steal each other's lands. Once you've got a land, it's yours to keep. (The only exception is that the lands bordering the Orcs have upkeep costs you must be able to pay and you also have to have at least one soldier unit.)

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Goves good reason to bid. However I don't know about the multiple annexes and especially the cancelling an annex. You said that to annex a land you have to have at least 2 adjacent lands and 0-4 soldiers (to make a total of lands + soldiers = 6). This seems fine, the more you surround a land the less soldiers are needed... I think you're right about the theme and the word "annex" (and the use of soldiers). The solders could easily be Monuments or something else dwarves might like. maybe monuments to the Dwarf Lord is an indication that it's a good dwarf lord and the 'annexees' would be that much happier to serve him.

I like using soldier tokens for two reasons -- they have a natural upkeep cost (so maintaining a big army isn't cheap) and a sub-theme to the game is that the lands bordering the Orcs involve unseen battles. In fact, in order to control one of the border lands you must have (and maintain) at least one soldier unit.

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So then you have the cancelling effect if multiple lords try and annex the same territory. It's obviously possible for 2 or even 3 people to 'qualify' to annex a certain territory. I'm not sure the specifics of your mechanic, but it sounds like everyone on their turn 'announces' their annex(es), but when does that 'resolve'? Also it sounds like that's something you can do as an action on your turn. Does it occur that whenever 2 players qualify to annex a land they both do so as a matter of course, lest allow the opponent to get it? I'm not sure I like (or understand fully) the annex system.

SotDL doesn't really have turns in the conventional sense. After we've each taken our land for the turn we have the opportunity to annex lands. The Host (arbitrary designation that rotates each turn) says what land(s) he plans to annex and then the next player and so on. All annex attempts then resolve simultaneously.

So let's say you and I can both annex land A but I can also annex land B. You're the host, so you announce that you will annex land A and pay two gold. I can either try to annex both A and B (paying six gold) in which case I get B and neither of us gets A, or I can just pay two gold and take B.

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Have you considered a scenario where Annexes are more like triggered effects? When a player wins the bid on a territory, could that trigger the annex of another territory (if the total of adjacent lands and 'soldiers' are now 6)? Maybe it could also trigger on purchasing a soldier, such that any time the conditions for annex are met, the territory is auto-annexed. There could also be a way to 'defend' against that by purchasing soldiers or monuments or whatever in that territory, so the conditions to annex would be more like (adjacent territories + soldiers on those territories = 6 + defending soldiers). This might work better in the 'place the tile' format than the 'premade board' format, but I think it could work for either one.

This could definitely work, but I have a couple of concerns. First, triggered effects can be easy to miss. I want to avoid situations in which people either realize they should have annexed something or else feel that every time something happens they have to look all over the board. Second, I want annexing to be a sub-theme (although an important one) so i don't want to over-complicate it. I think the way I've got it set up now lets the players interact a bit and gives a nice reward to the players who build up their army but doesn't get out of control.

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Note that in a tile placing format, placing a non-dwarven land helps protect against being annexed... although it would also be neat if elves and orcs could annex dwarven lands (if there are enough Elf territories around a territory, it would become Elven and noone would control it). Elf tiles and Orc tiles could come with a number of soldiers on them, as well as restrictions on where they can be placed.

This is why I love bringing games here. I get good ideas for the game as I've envisioned it as well as totally out-of-the-box ideas on radical changes to the game. :)

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The land hexes aren't separate tiles -- just hex-shapes on the playing board.

I see why you would want this layout, but does it run the risk of the game being the same every time?

That's a danger of a static board, but the random drawing of cards should mitigate this somewhat. It's certainly one of the issues I'll be watching in playtesting.

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sej wrote:
I think that last one sounds like it would work well- remove the deck from the game, just have face down hex tiles, and when you win a bid you place the tile. You could have placement rules based on adjacency, or just the rules you stated- more income if next to Elves, upkeep and honor if next to Orcs, both if next to both I presume.

That would be a different (but quite interesting) spin on the game.
If you want to talk about this in particulr further, send me a PM. I've ogot some ideas that are a continuation of this.

Let's talk when we get back from Thanksgiving and I've had a chance to playtest (and think about) this game and Escape from Arenaworld.

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The idea that the dwarf who makes the largest gift in the Contest (thus displaying the greatest wealth) would get first choice of which region to gain control over feels intuitive to me

Wait, I thought you didn't get choice of which region you controlled. I thought you got control of the region up for bid. Did I get that wrong?

Can't you read my mind yet? Must I explain things clearly before you can grasp them? :)

Each turn there is one land card dealt up per player. The auction determines which order the players get land, not whether they get land at all.

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Having the largest gift enable you to decide where the elves lived seems less coherent somehow. (My brain is still wandering with it, but I'm thinking of it for a different storyline/game.)

True, this might mean a bit of re-theming, but it certainly sounds like it could be worth it, doesn't it?

Indeed it does! I could see it as part of a "game of the gods" theme, where you're literally deciding where each God's tiles are going to go and trying to position your own worshippers to benefit (for example).

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Here's a crazy idea... I'm just thinking out loud here- this idea is pretty far removed from your Dwarf Lord game.

What if players controlled a Lord of each race, and so depending on what tile came up for bid the round would be played as a "Dwarf round" or an "Elf Round" or whatever. So if an Elf tile comes up, you bid on it (I suppose the money would be common to all of your lords, maybe it's a fellowship or alliance), and then you place it wherever you want (adjaceny to your dwarven land might help you get income, etc). Ooo, that could be interesting too- clumping Elven lands together allows you to annex other lands into your elven kingdom, but then there's bonuses if you have Elves next to non-elves...

Then it might also be interesting for the Orc Kingdoms to be unfriendly with the elves, men, and dwarves (this sounds like Lord of the Rings!), but you still have to place them... maybe you bid NOT to take Orc lands (like in High Society where you bid not to take the "-5" and the "1/2" tiles) And then if you get it it has to be placed adjacent to your kingdom (not just stick it on your opponent), but if you can get them too then great.

That sounds very interesting indeed!

I hope I managed to clarify the rules issues on how SotDL works in its current form.

Hugs,
Chad

sedjtroll
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
So let's say you and I can both annex land A but I can also annex land B. You're the host, so you announce that you will annex land A and pay two gold. I can either try to annex both A and B (paying six gold) in which case I get B and neither of us gets A, or I can just pay two gold and take B.

I supopse you won't always have the money, but as long as you did it seems like you'd always want to go ahead and stop me from annexing that territory. It's 2$/turn to drain me of 2$/turn and make sure I don't get more income from that territory. And if I let up then you get the territory. Then again, in a multiplayer game it might not be worth it to continue to screw me over when player 3 is unhindered.

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Each turn there is one land card dealt up per player. The auction determines which order the players get land, not whether they get land at all.

I think I understand now... do the cards relate to regions, and players choose which land they get within that region in bid order?

- Seth

Chad_Ellis
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Song of the Dwarf Lords

sedjtroll wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
So let's say you and I can both annex land A but I can also annex land B. You're the host, so you announce that you will annex land A and pay two gold. I can either try to annex both A and B (paying six gold) in which case I get B and neither of us gets A, or I can just pay two gold and take B.

I supopse you won't always have the money, but as long as you did it seems like you'd always want to go ahead and stop me from annexing that territory. It's 2$/turn to drain me of 2$/turn and make sure I don't get more income from that territory. And if I let up then you get the territory. Then again, in a multiplayer game it might not be worth it to continue to screw me over when player 3 is unhindered.

Well, it's actually $4 a turn in this example and could be more. If we each can only go for A, then yeah, we'll just fight over it until it gets drawn. But if I can go for A and/or B, it costs me two to take B and SIX for me to take B and prevent you from taking A. So I'm giving up four gold a turn to make you give up two and the other players aren't giving up anything. I might just let you have it.

If I have the possibility to annex A, B and C, it gets even more expensive. I can spend six (two plus four) to take B and C and let you have A, or I can spend fourteen (two plus four plus eight) to take B and C and prevent you from taking A.

In any case, I'm OK with players fighting over lands...it gives a mechanism for players to stop a runaway leader from annexing land too quickly.

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Each turn there is one land card dealt up per player. The auction determines which order the players get land, not whether they get land at all.

I think I understand now... do the cards relate to regions, and players choose which land they get within that region in bid order?

Each card corresponds to one hex on the map. There are 55 hexes representing the dwarven region of the world, each with a corresponding card in the deck. So in a five player game, five hexes come up for control each turn. The player who gifts the most gets first choice, followed by the player who gifts the second most, etc.

If this is still confusing, think of the board as the United States. Each card represents a state. So on a given turn, California (produces 8 gold per turn), Kentucky (produces 4 gold) and Delaware (produces 3 gold) could come up. Whichever player gifts the most is able to gain control of California since the Californians are impressed by his display of wealth. The next player might take Delaware because doing so will let him annex Maryland, even though on its own Kentucky would be more valuable.

Hugs,
Chad

sedjtroll
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
Well, it's actually $4 a turn in this example and could be more... if I can go for A and/or B, it costs me two to take B and SIX for me to take B and prevent you from taking A. So I'm giving up four gold a turn to make you give up two and the other players aren't giving up anything. I might just let you have it.

You only pay the 4 god once, not every turn. So you could look at it like it still only cots you 2 to screw the other player, and territory B cost you 4 (instead of the normal 2). The point is the cost for B is almost irrelevant, because it's almost the same as you NOT going for B and jst fighting for A... then seperate from that you can purchase B at the cost of 4.

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In any case, I'm OK with players fighting over lands...it gives a mechanism for players to stop a runaway leader from annexing land too quickly.

Well then, perhaps it's good for this rule to encourage this back and forth :) Mayeb there's some way to 'encorage' someone to let you have the territory... like a way to make sure they need their money for other things.

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Each card corresponds to one hex on the map. There are 55 hexes representing the dwarven region of the world, each with a corresponding card in the deck. So in a five player game, five hexes come up for control each turn.

Aha! You said 1 land came up! Now I see.

- Seth

Chad_Ellis
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sedjtroll wrote:
Chad_Ellis wrote:
Well, it's actually $4 a turn in this example and could be more... if I can go for A and/or B, it costs me two to take B and SIX for me to take B and prevent you from taking A. So I'm giving up four gold a turn to make you give up two and the other players aren't giving up anything. I might just let you have it.

You only pay the 4 god once, not every turn. So you could look at it like it still only cots you 2 to screw the other player, and territory B cost you 4 (instead of the normal 2). The point is the cost for B is almost irrelevant, because it's almost the same as you NOT going for B and jst fighting for A... then seperate from that you can purchase B at the cost of 4.

Whether you pay it this turn or every turn depends on whether you have more annexing to do on the following turn. I'm guessing that you probably will, since annexing land is a VERY good deal for the first land (the worst land in the game produces two gold per turn). Thus, every turn I fight you over that land we can both reach is a turn where I'm paying 2^(X+1) gold to keep it out of your hands, where X is the number of other lands I'm annexing.

That's also why I don't think it's right to count out B. Sure, you can say that you're spending two to keep A free and four to annex B, but what really matters is the cost difference between the two decisions.

Just take B and let you have A = 2 gold.
Take B but keep A free = 6 gold.

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In any case, I'm OK with players fighting over lands...it gives a mechanism for players to stop a runaway leader from annexing land too quickly.

Well then, perhaps it's good for this rule to encourage this back and forth :) Mayeb there's some way to 'encorage' someone to let you have the territory... like a way to make sure they need their money for other things.

Absolutely...I might have a lot of gold and maybe your army is big enough that upkeeping it is a pain for you. Or maybe it's just that next turn I know you'll have other things you can annex and I'll be selecting first so I think I can put you in the position where it isn't worth fighting over A.

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Each card corresponds to one hex on the map. There are 55 hexes representing the dwarven region of the world, each with a corresponding card in the deck. So in a five player game, five hexes come up for control each turn.

Aha! You said 1 land came up! Now I see.

Yeah, now I see. I left off "per player" in that sentence.

Hugs,
Chad

sedjtroll
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Song of the Dwarf Lords

Chad_Ellis wrote:
Whether you pay it this turn or every turn depends on whether you have more annexing to do on the following turn. I'm guessing that you probably will

Well I don't know how common Annexing is. If it's something you do every turn, then yeah- fighting over a land makes EACH of your other annexes cost more... bad deal. Presumably both players will have that same situation.

So my concern appears to be invalid then, which is good because in the context of the other things you have to pay for it sounds like a pretty good
mechanic.

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Yeah, now I see. I left off "per player" in that sentence.

Eh, ehat's 2 little words here and there?

- Seth

Brykovian
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Song of the Dwarf Lords

It would seem to me that having a map with "natural" shaped regions, instead of hexes, would make your life a bit easier on the design side of things. This might make it much easier to limit the number of regions and would probably lead to a more interesting-looking map.

You could cut the number of regions in half, and then have 2 cards per region ... if an already-controlled land comes up for bid at the start, it could simply be the residents of that region wanting a new leader to replace the current leader. This might make the bidding even more interesting. If my favorite region has come up for bid, and I've been using a bid-low-save-money-build-army strategy, I might need to bid high this time to retain my control of that region. (Not sure this helps or hurts the amount of time needed to play the game.)

One thing that might help control the length of the game ... layout the map so that certain regions aren't used when fewer players are playing. So, for example, with 3 players 17 regions are used, with 4 players 21 regions are used, and with 5 players 25 regions are used. And the map is layed-out in a way so that it specifically shows which regions are added-on with more players playing.

Another is to change the thing that triggers the end of the game ... maybe it's not how many regions are controlled ... maybe it's how many Contests are run. Or perhaps have some cards in the deck with a special symbol -- when a certain number of them have been drawn, the game is over.

-Bryk

Chad_Ellis
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Song of the Dwarf Lords

Brykovian wrote:
It would seem to me that having a map with "natural" shaped regions, instead of hexes, would make your life a bit easier on the design side of things. This might make it much easier to limit the number of regions and would probably lead to a more interesting-looking map.

I tend to agree, and I'm very likely to go in that direction. The nice thing about starting off with a hex map is that it's straightforward so it's easy to work on the base mechanics. It was also quicker for me to draw, since I just made a map with Campaign Cartographer and then put a hex grid over it. If I want to change the number of regions I don't have to redraw anything -- just apply a larger or smaller grid.

Another nice thing to your idea is that different lands will border on different numbers of other lands. That could add a level of strategy by making a land with below-average production attractive because it borders on a lot of other lands (since you need two bordering lands before you can annex a land).

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You could cut the number of regions in half, and then have 2 cards per region ... if an already-controlled land comes up for bid at the start, it could simply be the residents of that region wanting a new leader to replace the current leader. This might make the bidding even more interesting. If my favorite region has come up for bid, and I've been using a bid-low-save-money-build-army strategy, I might need to bid high this time to retain my control of that region. (Not sure this helps or hurts the amount of time needed to play the game.)

That could be interesting. A land would obviously be worth more the second time around (since then you won't have to rebid for it), but I'm reluctant to force people to give up land after they've won it.

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One thing that might help control the length of the game ... layout the map so that certain regions aren't used when fewer players are playing. So, for example, with 3 players 17 regions are used, with 4 players 21 regions are used, and with 5 players 25 regions are used. And the map is layed-out in a way so that it specifically shows which regions are added-on with more players playing.

This is a nice idea. It might be a bit tricky since I want to have the dwarven lands bordering with four other races, but

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Another is to change the thing that triggers the end of the game ... maybe it's not how many regions are controlled ... maybe it's how many Contests are run. Or perhaps have some cards in the deck with a special symbol -- when a certain number of them have been drawn, the game is over.

I like the idea of ending the game after a certain number of Contests, especially because that makes it easy for people to decide whether they want a short, medium or long game. I'm going to wait for now until I've done some playtesting, though. It may be that in a smaller game there's more annexing of lands or in general the ability to annex lands may cause the game to end more quickly than I'm anticipating. (If each player starts getting two or even three lands per turn, that could empty the deck quite quickly even in a three-player game.)

Thanks for the ideas!

Hugs,
Chad

Chad_Ellis
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Joined: 12/31/1969
First playtest session

We had four players for our first playtest session. The game was pretty good fun. The auction was very interesting with a surprisingly large amount of maneuvering, and the flow of the game was fun, but (unsurprisingly!) we identified a number of problems.

1. Annexation was explosive under the rules where you could annex as much as you wanted and just paid escalating gold. One guy wasn't able to start annexing the same turn as the rest of us and was effectively out of the game.

2. Towards the end the lands that produce lots of gold but have a cost in honor are bad, so no one was taking them. As the rules stood, we got to a situation with four of them out (four players) in which case no cards would be dealt.

3. The only use for gold in the late game was bidding.

The first two were very easy to solve. After the first game we said that annexing a land requires the sacrifice of a soldier unit (to guard the land). Since you can only recruit one soldier per turn (at the moment), this essentially caps annexation at one per turn on average. (Another solution we considered was simply to increase the rate of escalation, but this still leaves a runaway leader problem.) The second problem is solved by saying you deal up X lands per turn (where X is the number of players) regardless of whether there are unclaimed lands from last turn. We're also going to make the leftover lands more attractive, possibly by having them gain one honor per turn or five gold instead of one.

There are a few possibilities for the lack of uses for gold. One would be to make it possible to hire more than one unit of soldiers per turn but with a steeply escalating cost. That would make it possible to annex multiple lands per turn but only in the later game so someone who started a turn behind wouldn't be in big trouble. It would also make the struggle for largest army (another source of honor) more interesting.

Hugs,
Chad

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