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tactical squad based miniatures game

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CIDIC
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Joined: 12/31/1969

I'm working on this game, where players have small teams of around 5 miniatures. the minis will be represented by facedown cards, until they are reavealed (or spotted). these are the rules i have for it so far. i really wanted suppression to play a big role in this game but i dunno if i've gotten it where i want it yet. the game is d6 based, any suggestions would be great.

minis are represented by face down cards until they are within line of sight of an enemy. they are then replaced by a mini. the mini can be placed within 6" of the card. players will also have face down decoy cards dicated by scenario or point costs.

basic combat rules.
TO-HIT
characters will have a ranged attack skill ranging from (3+, 4+, 5+) 3+ hitting on a d6 roll of 3,4,5, or 6 for example.

This roll is modifyed by the following (+1 being 1 added the skill roll, a skill of 3+ with a +1 is now a 4+:

-1 if range of target is <12" (close range)
+1 if range of target is > the range stat of the weapon used (ranging from 16-32")
+1 if concealed (trees forest ect.)
+1 if unrevealed (for whatever reason you are firing on a model that is still represented by a card, other rules still considered will use this)

the player taking the hits must then make training saves for every hit.
training save is the ability of the character to use cover, armor, ect. it will range from 3+, 4+, or 5+
-1 to this roll if they are in hard cover (different from concealment)

Damage:
most units have 10hp as their hp goes down, their stats decay.

Suppression:
a character gets a suppression counter for every hit they take (wounding or not). at the beging of a characters activation, they make a leadership roll (yet another stat) for every counter on the character. for every passing test a counter is removed. any remaining counters are left.
Yet to be decided: a character gets a -1 to hit, movement, ect. for every suppression counter on them.

weapon examples:
Rate of fire if
moved/stationary Range
SMG 3/5 18"
Rifle 1/4 24"
HMG 0/6 32"

this is the very fist draft of the game, nothing has really be tested yet and nothing is really decided yet. after ALOT of brainstorming this is what i ended up with. some weapons will do more than 1 hp of damage but that is for later testing to decide. the only part of this that i am not happy with is the suppression rules, i want a system that is more than pinned or unpinned. i want it to reflect a range of suppression, i'm having trouble coming up with a system that is not too complicated or hard to remember. I have tryed to cram as much realism and depth into the game as I can without making the rules too complicated or hard to remember. I've created a system that gives you 3 range bands with really only one number to remember bc 12" is short range for everything. so tell me what you think.

Nandalf
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Joined: 07/13/2009
howdy

my friends and i have made wuite a few mini-based game in the past, the need for realism in multiple shots drives us lol, and in that i think youve scored a goal. i like the moving/stationary weapon firing rates, aswell as the card deployment, cards & minis are the best ;0

im not entirely sure upon what the minis are though, are they single blokes, or representaion or units, because you said most units have 10 hp, which may be a tad too much for ordinary chaps, possibly be better off using a wounding chart? with so few models you could get away with hit locations?

P.S. please excuse any bad spelling, my wireless KB sucks, think the btteries are dying...

Nandalf.

CIDIC
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Joined: 12/31/1969
tactical squad based miniatures game

it is intended to be 1 man one model. I haven't gotten to test the game yet, and 10 maybe too much, i just figured it would be a good starting point for testing. I really didn't want to do hit location, unless it felt like it needed it after testing (i've got some ideas for making that streamlined too). I also plan to give weapons damage stats, but i wanted to test the game with everything doing 1 dmg to get a feel for it. what do you think of the suppression?

Infernal
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Joined: 12/31/1969
tactical squad based miniatures game

What exactly do you mean by "suppression". DO you mean as in "Suppressing fire"? or that the characters stats are "supressed" because of their wounds and thus are unable to be as combat effective?

Also, as an aid to help people learn your game you could change the sign ("+" to a "-" and "-" to a "+") for the bonuses and penalties and applying them to the die rolls instead of the target number. This will aid players in remembering the aplication of these modifiers.

It is natural for a player to consider a bonus as a plus and a penalty as a negative. If you have the reverse of this (as you have in your game and as it appears in manay others), it can be confusing, and therefor players will be discouraged from learning the system.

CIDIC
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Joined: 12/31/1969
tactical squad based miniatures game

yea i realize the modifier thing, and will probly word it differently but i just wanted to explain the system. suppression is a result of supression fire. instead of just being either pinned down or not pinned down, a soldier would have varying degree of supression, effecting his performance in varying degree. but it looks like i will be adopting a different system to simulate suppression, that will have a pinned or unpinned status, but will have another way of limiting performance temporarily.

basically i want to acomplish 2 major things. I want to make infantry realistically difficult to harm while in concealment or hard cover. and 2 i want to have fast yet variable pinning rules that force you to manuver your units while pinning the enemy.

does anyone know of any squad/fireteam scale games i should look at for ideas?

Anonymous
WW-II CCG

I am also working on a ww ccg where it involves card and a board or actually a map where the players can do their combat on. I wasn't sure if i wanted to do this but since i drew up a nice area, I will keep it and do more areas.

There will be 6 characters to manage through the combat, i have so much in detail that i am trying to figure out which way i wll go in the mechanic department for this game. I am going for customization as well.

I am basing the ccg on historical facts and character storyline. each map has different missions to go through. there will be the americans,germans,british,russians, and a few more. I'm just thinking aloud right now and not really getting into to much detail just the basic premises of the game.

Good luck on your project. Hope we can help eachother out from time to time before this week ends but next week will be my last week here at the mahcine tool operator class.

BullDog

sfictre
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Joined: 12/31/1969
OK......

Squad based minis on squares...........

I have been doing alot of thinking on this line of things over the past couple of months and I am willing to share my thoughts with you.

Firstly, how many teams will you be having. From my exp I have found that 3 really is a *magic* number. You need to concentrait on what the other teams are doing but also alot on what you are doing.

I don't know what it is, but in the testing stage I recommend you try it.

Then, how many species are you going to have?
just human......or are you going more in depth?

Considering it is modern/future game it would be legit to have things such as aliens and so forth in your game.

While you may be thinking that it would be too much to learn. Too hard on the beginners. Who is your intended audience/. What type of people do you want to play your game?
Hard-core-gamers, or for people just to pick up the game and play it with thier friends.
This really affects what you put into your game so I suggest that you think about it and decicide one way or another.
But the world isn't split into Hard-core-gamers and social gamers.
You could go for the half way line.

I think that if you want some variety in your game but not too much, you should have 2 species/races in your game that people can choose from.
This dosn't add in too much, but adds in variables. This way people won't get sick of your game as fast becuase there is more that they can try out. But take my advice here. Make the 2 species totally opposite becuase if you just make slight differances then there is almost no point in having the two species.
If you want more pinpointed ideas then PM me cause I have done alot of thinking on this line of things, and thinking is the essence of game making.

sfictre

CIDIC
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Joined: 12/31/1969
tactical squad based miniatures game

while you both have offered some very good advice i still haven't been able to get feed back on my current struggle. if you read my game journal you will get a very good idea of how the game is going. right now i'm strugling with mechanics, all of these other suggestions are for later problems to face.

right now,

Spot / TO-HIT / effective delivery of fire
characters will have a ranged attack skill ranging from (2+, 3+, 4+) 3+ hitting on a d6 roll of 3,4,5, or 6 for example.

This roll is modifyed by the following (+1 being 1 added the skill roll, a skill of 3+ with a +1 is now a 2+):

+1 if range of target is > the range stat of the weapon used (ranging from 16-32")
-1 if concealed (trees forest, hard cover ect.)
-1 if unrevealed (for whatever reason you are firing on a model that is still represented by a card, other rules still considered will allow a chance of a unit remaining unrevealed if not successfuly spotted)

now i need some further detailed rolls, i'm playing with many different things to factor in but none of it feels right. i want the game to realistically represent how dificult it is to eliminate the enemy with ranged fire, and have pinning and supression a big part of the game. i want the rules to be as simple and efficient as possible.

also, what factors do you think are most important when resolving combat? and wich ones effect eachother and how? thats the delema i'm facing, firepower vs hard cover, range makes targets hard to spot like concealment does, how do i represent these.

and yes i plan to have 2-3 fire teams per side.

sfictre
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Joined: 12/31/1969
sorry dude....

Modern/future games aren't really my thing. I don't really know enough about these type of games to list what type of things to factor in. I am medieval (twypo) style guy. I know what to factor in with arrows and such projectiles, but my machine gun/pistol/rocket/ knolege is limited.

Sorry I couldn't help you there.

If you would still like some ideas that months of pondering have conjured, then let me know. and yes these were for a modern/future game.
No point writing them if you don't want them.
PM me if you do.

oh well.......I'll see you is some other post

~sfictre

CIDIC
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Joined: 12/31/1969
tactical squad based miniatures game

not that anyone is interested in this project or this thread but, i've been workin on this in my journal. and wanted to update the thread as well.

the to-hit is the same, so just look at the last post I made.
the next step is a silhouet save for the defending player. the target of the attack makes a silhouet save, this is dependent upon the posture of the target (wich they can change by spending an action) a soldier can be standing, crouching, or prone. you silhouet save is as follows: standing 5+, crouching 4+, prone 3+. you you make the save, then you have not been hit. if you fail the save than the weapon deals its designated damage to you and you lose hp ect. (the next step in the development)

tell me what you think.

sfictre
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Joined: 12/31/1969
tactical squad based miniatures game

interesting

I didn't go quite that far in my design.......it is a good idea though.

How will you be able to tell what position they are in??
will other players be able to tell what pos they are in or just you??
Will you have a chart??
or will you have some position that you physically have to put it into, or will you have a counter under the piece if it is crouching??
and a diff coulour if it is prone?
If you are going to have this then you will need to have some method so that players don't have their men "prone" the whole time. Maybe it could ba some movement dissadvantage?? Or will it take more "actions" to actually attack???

It is a good idea though.

By the way. Were you meaning that the player ONLY goes to thoes positions when defending?? And to do so you will have to have a spare action??

~sfictre

CIDIC
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Joined: 12/31/1969
tactical squad based miniatures game

if your prone you can move 1", crouch 3", and stand 6". using markers or differing models, you will mark what posture a model has, anyone can see it and it will cost command counters to change posture.

I'm trying to make the game simple enough that a chart won't really be needed.

sfictre
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Joined: 12/31/1969
tactical squad based miniatures game

Good idea. While having charts sometimes can be annoying, in my game; not having charts would be disastrous. sorry bout my spelling.

If you can avoid it then it good to.

good idea with the movement differances. Just make sure you playtest the differances between prone and standing cause there is a big movement diff between them and not that much chance diff. Also, will all your pieces have the movement.
If not then you could have penalties so that your movement isn't set.
For eg.

an "alien" shock trooper's speciality might be that they have good weapons and are fast but have nothing in the way of defence.
Therefore they will need a penality so as to not have the same movement as a human trooper whose speciality is not movement.
I hope you can see where I'm going.

But is it also only how big a target you are that determinses the chance to hit??
What about dodge skill?? maybe that is a thought to through in.
It may be to complicated for your game though. Still you could make it work.

Let me know more info so I can help more. (in what ever)
broad casting isn't nessacery if you don't want to. PM me if you want to.

Dosn't bother me either way.

good luck ;)

~sfictre
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it's not whether you win or loose but how you play the game........
(can't remember who wrote this)

CIDIC
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Joined: 12/31/1969
tactical squad based miniatures game

ther is a pretty signifigant difference in defence from prone to standing, 3+ save prone, and 5+ save standing.

sfictre
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Joined: 12/31/1969
tactical squad based miniatures game

one of the most annoying things happened to me just before.
I typed up reply before and somehow it went missing.........
Either that or somehow I pressed back or something stupid......I dunno how I'd do that though.......
anyway....

I agree, there is actually a big diff from 5+ to 3+.
I should have checked my facts....or rather yours......

You have to think though.......is that the only factor in whether you will get hit???
What about armour saves? Not exactly in the hitting equasion but it's still there.
If you moved that turn.....becuase in effect, it is trying to simulate the actual thing. In which case you wouldn't have as good a shot, opposed to if they were standing still.

I dunno. Good idea about the save.

keep us updated on how you're going
and I'll be able to try to help you

~sfictre
_________________

It's not whether you win or loose, but how you play the game.....
(can't remember who wrote this)

CIDIC
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Joined: 12/31/1969
tactical squad based miniatures game

well the way i figure it, i guy moving in the open isn't a big enough difference from a guy mostly stationary in cover.

sfictre
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Joined: 12/31/1969
tactical squad based miniatures game

ahhhhhh but is he alaways in cover????/

can your men always be in cover while standing still?
There has been planty of time i have been stationary, not undercover while playing wide-games.

If you are going to say that all stationary men are undercover then why have a board with obsticles and such to put your men under cover with???

If you are trying to make this a "simulation" or try to make it realistic then you need to try to figure out these things.
No......I'm not drilling you. It's up to you how realistic you make it.
Some.....and if fact alot of games are better being *not* realistic.

CIDIC
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Joined: 12/31/1969
tactical squad based miniatures game

i'm confused, your really not making any sense

Jebbou
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Joined: 07/29/2008
tactical squad based miniatures game

Hello CIDIC,

I am surprised the name "Necromunda" (or even WarHammer 40k) has not been mentionned yet in this discussion. Necromunda is a futuristic "tactical squad based miniatures game" in which cover, movement, pinning and leadership plays a significant role.

Cover gives a penality to the shooting roll (-1 or -2, depending on type of cover). Thus, a character with low shooting skill will have a really hard time shooting at someone behind hard cover (like behind a rock).

A character can "hide" himself when there is no direct line of sight between the character and the opponent's characters. When hidden, he cannot be shoot at, but cannot run or shoot without removing this "hidden" status. As long as he moves within cover (bushes, fences, baricades, etc), he can keep his hidden status.

If I remember well, a character succefully hit, but not wounded, is automatically pinned. I might be wrong though, I have not played the game in years :)

As for leadership, I remember it being used to keep your morale when a character is wounded nearby.

The only games I have seen which used stances (crouching, standing, crawling) were video games such as UFO (x-com) and Fallout Tactics. I would also suggest that you read reviews about miniature games such as "Axis & allies". I have heard that cover may be abused, and that it limits strategy. Regardless, I think it uses pinning rules as well and it could be interesting to see how it is handled.

Regards,

Jeb

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