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Theory vs Brute Force?

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Zzzzz
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Ok,

I was wondering which of the following best decribes your personal style of putting a new game design together:

Do you work on your game designs from a theory/analytical approach or use a brute force/on the fly approach?

Theory/analytical : Use game theories, formulas, decision trees, sum zero concepts, other related concepts.

Brute Force/on the fly : Toss your mechanics and ideas together with a theme and then hack and slash your rules until you get something that is *playable*.

Personally, I think I start with the Brute Force/On the fly approach, and try to then take the initial set of rules and apply some type of Theory/Analytical to refine the game. But honestly, I am not sure if I really do enough Theory/Analytical to help my designs. And I think I really need to get better at anaylisis of my games to help improve them to a professional level.

For anyone that has more insight, or has been published by a game company, do you really worry about theory/anaylictal break down of your game designs?

snak_attack
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Theory vs Brute Force?

I think this is my usual process:
1. Develop goals for the game - feel, number of players, playing time, etc
2. Brainstorm a list of thematic elements I'd like to include
3. Boil the list from #2 down to those elements that are both essential and can be supported by fun game mechanisms
4. Take a step back and analyse what I have, rationalizing the various elements and trying to create a unified game design
5. Try the game out

I'm very inexperienced as a game designer, but I think analysis can only take you so far, game testing is really the only reliable tool we have.

Dralius
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Theory vs Brute Force?

I would not call my approach brute force. What I do is more intuition than analysis. Once I have my base idea I might do a little math just to make sure that there will be enough cards or money to go around for example but not much more than that. I let the testing do the real work for me. I can usually tell from watching a game if someone is enjoying it or not and the goal is to make the game enjoyable. Blind testing is ok however I get so much more data from seeing how people react to the game and asking directed questions. I only do blind testing for games that I feel are nearly completed.

A few weeks back I was speaking to an game editor about “The perfect game” and we came to the agreement that

1. There is no such thing.
2. You can’t tell if a game is any good just from reading the rules.
3. There is no formula for fun.

Regardless of your personal design style in the end you must lean the mantra.

Everybody get in the full lotus position and repeat after me.

Play Test – Play Test – Play Test

Zzzzz
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Theory vs Brute Force?

Dralius wrote:

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Play Test – Play Test – Play Test
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Play Test - Play Test - Play Test !!

Ok for me I feel that play testing falls into what I consider the brute force method of game design. The interations of play testing result in editing and tweaking a game over and over, *forcing* the game into a *solid and perfect game*.

But I also understand that you need a ton of play testing to work out issues. I just wonder if there are any analytical processes that can help to reduce the amount of play testing needed. Since this would be good for many designers, since we all seem to worry about having enough playtesters. So you want to make every play testing session count 150%!

I should also point out that I agree with all 3 of your statements Dralius. But I am not sure that they impact my design process of Theory or Brute Force. I think those 3 statements are just a fact of life!

seo
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Theory vs Brute Force?

Dralius wrote:
Everybody get in the full lotus position and repeat after me.

Play Test – Play Test – Play Test
Darn! I've been doing everything wrong. Are you sure it's full lotus position? That's why doing proper playtesting is so hard! ;-P

Back to the thread topic, I usually go for a brute force with a pinch of analisys aproach. I mean: first I try to figure how the game should feel when played, then I try to match the theme with that, and as I begin shaping up the game rules I constantly think about lots of what-if's to try to cover the all the big holes. Sometimes this also involves some more detailed analisys, like dice probabilities, or possible moves, etc.

But I think that too much analisys might threaten the creative flow, so it probably is better left for a latter evolutionary stage of the game, toghether with playtesting, or probably just before the real playtesting, after the early playtesting in which you are still changing a lot of detail.

Seo

Dralius
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Theory vs Brute Force?

Zzzzz wrote:

I should also point out that I agree with all 3 of your statements Dralius. But I am not sure that they impact my design process of Theory or Brute Force. I think those 3 statements are just a fact of life!

One of the reasons I put that in is because there are those designers who think that a good game is one that is mathematically perfect, I emphatically disagree. Just because you have tuned a mechanic to a fine degree doesn’t mean you are making something fun. Elements like games that can’t end in ties or that have no first player advantage are great but some of my favorite games of all time have brutal flaws and many games that are prefect by those standards are also perfectly dull to me.

P.S. I think it was terms like” tossed together” and “hack and slash” that make me reluctant to put myself into the brute force camp as described.

FastLearner
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Theory vs Brute Force?

So far for me, I don't think either term describes my approach at all, though I guess "brute force" is closer. My process looks like this:

1. Inspiration -- I get the idea, both theme and basic mechanics, together at the same time. This can be in a dream, it can be in the shower, it can be standing in line at the bank. Whatever the case, a basic pairing of a theme and one or two mechanics pops into existience. I write this down. I now have the core idea for a game, and we have life!

2. Brainstorming -- The very act of writing down the idea spawns a flurry of additions, subtractions, and changes to the main idea. These occur over a few days, a week at most. At this point I've filled several pages with writing and illustrations. I might even have fooled around in a graphics program to put some shapes together or figure out some visual part. I now have a variety of paths and options for the game, and the majority of the possible combinations of the DNA are laid out!

3. Gestation -- Now the game just has to sit in the back of my brain and gurgles. This could be for a week, it could be for a year. I suspect that subconsciously there's math and game theory and such being applied during this time, but the process is largely unconscious. I may take an ultrasound now and then, but mostly it's on its own. The fetus grows!

4. Birth -- At some point the idea may finally form my new game. I write down the rest of how it all fits together and make a prototype (or, more likely, several). To do so I may well have worked out a variety of math calculations -- a lot of my games have spreadsheets associated with them -- and thought through some game theory and game design principles. A child is born!

5. Development -- I sit in a lotus position and... no, wait, I don't (not limber enough), but I do playtest, playtest, playtest. Things are added and removed. Additional consideration of game design principles and issues -- including things like runaway leaders and kingmaking -- are used here, and there may be more math to do, but there's little in the way of game theory or any other such high-level considerations at this point. My infant creeps, then crawls, and even takes his first steps. If it goes well, he's off to school. This part of the process includes the Terrible Twos, his Getting Picked On grade school years, and his Teenage Rebellion!

6. Submission/Publication -- I have no idea if this ever actually happens, but I'd liken it to my baby's graduation and/or attaining adulthood.

So far all of my games are either gestating or are in development. Here's to changing that in the next couple of months. *clink*

Note that it's not always this linear. A game can vacillate between Brainstorming and Gestation, back and forth, for months (or even years). Sometimes a game in Development is forced to crawl back into my womb (glad I don't have a real-world womb, those are a hassle) and into Gestation again if it fails spectacularly or if there's some problem that seems unsolvable (which means that only unconscious consideration will find the answer and that consciously working through it just gets in the way).

To sum, I don't think either classification fits well for me. Because the game ideas come whole, both theme and base mechanics, I think there's got to be a third classification.

-- Matthew

Zzzzz
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Theory vs Brute Force?

FastLearner wrote:

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To sum, I don't think either classification fits well for me. Because the game ideas come whole, both theme and base mechanics, I think there's got to be a third classification.
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Hmmm I never meant to say these are the only two classifications. I just wondered if people tend to use theory, iterations, logic, anayalsis or do they tend to just beat on a design until it is *fun* or *done*?

I think the actually process for designing a game from end to end has many steps, but I just wondered if people try to beat the game into existence or actually assess the game and make logical and calculated changes to improve a game.

For instance, if during a playtesting session the players uncovered a hole where one path takes 10 actions to win the game, and it causes a run away leader problem.

Do you use any type of analysis to see if there are other run away leader holes? Or do you just fix that specific runaway leader issue and wait until someone uncovers another run away hole (and fix this issue and so on)?

FastLearner
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Theory vs Brute Force?

Ah, gotcha.

Well, I'd argue that I don't beat at it, that I sculpt it. Add some clay here, smooth it out there, with enough planning in advance to it at least resembles the thing to start with. I think that I "beat" and "hacked and slashed" in my first few prototype-level games (Everest, for example), but it feels more surgical every time, so the metaphors are troubling.

I do indeed look for specific problems. I made a little checklist of things to consider right before making the prototype and then to be watching for during playtesting, like kingmaking and turn-order effects, so it's a conscious thing during final initial development and playtesting, but I don't think consciously about them during most of design.

larienna
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Theory vs Brute Force?

Quote:
Theory/analytical : Use game theories, formulas, decision trees, sum zero concepts, other related concepts.

Brute Force/on the fly : Toss your mechanics and ideas together with a theme and then hack and slash your rules until you get something that is *playable*.

You cannot make a game from theories and formulas. These are only tools that will support the balance of your game. So you need to build a game with a raw idea and then refine as the devellopment goes on.

I think game design works the same way like sculpting with the ability to redo some modeling. You start with a raw block and each time you sculpt your block you add details. It you don't like a section you remodel it and sculpt again.

Zzzzz
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Theory vs Brute Force?

Larienna wrote:

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You cannot make a game from theories and formulas.
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Ok I guess I screwed up with what I meant by posting this topic. In NO way did I mean to suggest that you can create a game using only theory, formulas, logic or even hack and slashing your way to a *finished* game.

So let me try again,

Who uses ANY type of Theory, Anayalsis, Logic to help model/refine or fix issues with your game?

Who uses repetitive playtesting to uncover *every* issue and fixes each issue as it occurs, *one* at a time (meaning you dont look at the BIG picture just the issue in front of you) (and the brute force in my opinion)?

Which do you tend to do more of:
a) test until issue uncovered, fix issue, retest, fix another issue, retest .... etc
b) use some logic or formulas to correct a design issue
c) mixure of a and b
d) dont care about this thread anymore =)

Not sure if this will help me clarify what I was trying to ask, but maybe...

FastLearner
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Theory vs Brute Force?

A mixture of a and b, for me. I try to apply as much "a" consciously as I can, but a lot of times I just can't see the problem until some testing makes it more obvious.

-- Matthew

Scurra
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Theory vs Brute Force?

I know of one game that was specifically designed to test out a particular aspect of game theory. However, given that it's a dinky little card game that only explores this particular theory, it's more of an exception that proves the rule! (Fruit Bandits)

Like most people, I probably apply a mix of a and b: testing will make a problem evident, and then I use a whole bunch of techniques to try and address it. I'd agree with Matthew though; there's a lot less slash-and-burn now in my designs than there used to be - that's an obvious consequence of experience

Hedge-o-Matic
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Theory vs Brute Force?

I'd have to agree with the general consensus here. As I continue to design, my methods become more intuitive, and I spend far less initial design time in analysis. When a game is up to solo testing, I usually assume players with different intentions or tactics, to explore a bit of the game space. But, with the exception of game-breaking tests, I don't analyze games much until the actual playtesting stages.

One recent game that has been a unique effort for me, has been my abstract Halo. This game has really highlighted, for me, my appoach to design and analysis, and made me think a bit more about the way I go about designing games, and why this game was so different.

To be clear, Halo started out sounding good, but with terrible flaws when played. So I'd try to isolate the source of the flaw, and the new incarnation would play so diffently that new flaws would emerge. This process continued until early this month, when, after more playable (but flawed) incarnations than any game I've ever created, the new Halo came into being.

The funny part is, when I tried to rationally analyze the problem, I created new problems. When I just let the rules simmer for a while, I got solutions. I'm not certain where this falls in the spectrum, but it was certainly a unique experience. Why I didn't abandon Halo as inherently flawed is a mystery, but I suppose Intuition played a part. Is intuition analgous to the "brute force" approach originally described?

Zzzzz
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Theory vs Brute Force?

Hedge-o-Matic wrote:
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Is intuition analgous to the "brute force" approach originally described?

Not sure if intuition is analgous to the "brute force" description, since brute force to me tends to suggest pushing yourway through, without thinking about the overall impact. Sort of a *try this patch* to fix an issue, oh that didn't work because it broke that part of there, ok *try this patch*, wow that worked (as far as I can tell)!

Intuition to me assumes some prior (though maybe not conscious) knowledge of what is wrong, or what needs to be done. So it might be its own concept... but I dunno really.

seo
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Theory vs Brute Force?

Hedge-o-Matic wrote:
The funny part is, when I tried to rationally analyze the problem, I created new problems. When I just let the rules simmer for a while, I got solutions. I'm not certain where this falls in the spectrum, but it was certainly a unique experience. Why I didn't abandon Halo as inherently flawed is a mystery, but I suppose Intuition played a part. Is intuition analgous to the "brute force" approach originally described?

This is interesting. My wife talked to me a couple months ago about an article she read somewhere, probably in New Scientist (I'll ask her for the link, if she can recall it). Tha idea was that based on some studies, the best method to take important decitions that require analysis of information consisted in a two stage process: first you study all the info, then take an instinctive decision. Apparently the brain works better by unconsciously analyzing all the data, and that "impulsive" decision is not as impulsive or instinctive as it seems. But when you try to do the analysis consciously, it's not uncommon to "overthink" things and take the wrong choices.

That shouldn't be surprising, as something similar happens with many physical tasks, like riding a bicycle, playing tennis or running downstairs. But one tends to beleive that intellectual tasks require more awareness of the decision process.

This does not mean analysis isn't needed, but that sometimes, what we regard as "brute force" might actually be some form of uncoinscious analysis.

Seo

FastLearner
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Theory vs Brute Force?

Indeed, I read a similar article a month or so ago, and am a firm believer. Fact is for me -- and it seems most people -- for simple decisions your first instinct is almost always better than giving it thought, and for complex ones you're better off fact-gathering and then letting it simmer without much conscious thought.

I've been using that technique all my life, accidentally. When I ran a good-sized small business (120 employees), when I was presented with a complex problem I'd always say at meetings, "Ok, great, now that we've talked it through, let's move on to something else and table it until X," where X was as long as I felt we could reasonably afford, at least a day if possible. That's how I grew it from one employee to 120, anyway. :)

I very strongly recommend the book Blink by Malcolm Gladwell. It's short and very approachable, and looks a how people make decisions. You'd very likely be surprised, for example, at how strong "first impressions" really are. He also talks about the studies surrounding needing a long bit of background processing for complex tasks. The book's only a year or two old and is incredibly insightful and backed with fact.

-- Matthew

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