Skip to Content
 

This whole thing about luck...

9 replies [Last post]
Tue, 06/13/2006 - 16:35
gilbertgea
Offline
Joined: 04/21/2009

...has really got me ta' wonderin'. Clearly, some people embrace or at least accept luck/chance/the random element in their gaming experiences. Others would rather not deal with luck.

My question to the forum is, if you have a combat game, how do you make the actual combat resolution fair *without* a random element?

Maybe this is a restatement of the thesis of earlier, pre-existing threads. I dunno. Take the game of Risk, for example. I'm fairly certain everyone or nearly everyone is familiar with that game. Its a game of world conquest where players have armies represented by tokens, and those armies invade and attempt to conquer other provinces. Combat is handled by dice rolls. High roll wins; ties go to the defender.

Now, yes, rolling dice ain't perfect. But, what is? What are you supposed to do? Draw straws? Shuffle a deck of cards and draw them? (High card wins?) That's still random. Are you supposed to vote to see who loses? ("Well, Alex has five armies attacking and Bill has only three defending. I guess Bill wins.")

I suppose you could give modifiers to certain combat situations. But, even if the odds are reduced to 1 in 6 losing, the person who despises luck will say, "I could still lose because of dumb luck!" while the person who is okay with luck says, "I still have a chance to win!"

I think whether or not the element of chance is appropriate to add to a game one is creating boils down to a matter of personal preference and maybe the type of game you're playing.

Top
Tue, 06/13/2006 - 16:48
#1
soulbeach
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
This whole thing about luck...

Well, i know a lot of people will disagree with this, but i find Full Metal Planete uses a very simple yet effective way to deal with battle: 2 units versus one, the 2 units win.

Other than that, positioning your units on certain terrains at certain times(during certain events taking place during a game turn: here, the tides vary from turn to turn, thus influence where you will move your units) makes you win or loose on the long run.

Full Metal Planet

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/6467[/url]

Top
Tue, 06/13/2006 - 17:56
#2
TheReluctantGeneral
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
Re: This whole thing about luck...

gilbertgea wrote:

Now, yes, rolling dice ain't perfect. But, what is? What are you supposed to do? Draw straws? Shuffle a deck of cards and draw them? (High card wins?) That's still random.

Well, hidden information is one alternative to rolling dice. Take stratego as an example. When you attack you know the strength of your own piece but not the enemy. There is a luck factor here but it can be controlled to some extent since you can figure odds of success based on the strength of the piece you attack with.

An excellent example of such a game is 'Bonaparte at Marengo' http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/15839, a diceless wargame that relies on hidden information as well as strategic piece movement (with the latter seeming more important than the former in this game).

Additionally, a bidding system can be used to resolve conflict. There is still hidden info here since you may not know what currency your opponent holds and therefore how best to bid, but as with the example above there is a greater degree of control, or at least an increased feeling of control.

Top
Tue, 06/13/2006 - 23:38
#3
clearclaw
clearclaw's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/21/2008
Re: This whole thing about luck...

gilbertgea wrote:
Now, yes, rolling dice ain't perfect. But, what is? What are you supposed to do? Draw straws? Shuffle a deck of cards and draw them? (High card wins?) That's still random. Are you supposed to vote to see who loses? ("Well, Alex has five armies attacking and Bill has only three defending. I guess Bill wins.")

There are many non-random combat resolution mechanics ranging from Vinci's or Antike's simple "stronger force always wins" (Vinci merely adds terrain effects to the calculation of stronger) to limited perfect information card play like the value cards in El Grande (you know that everybody has cards of values 1-N, the only question is when they play which of them). In both support and contrast I'll point you to Shannon Appelcline's assertion that almost all games are in fact auction games:

http://www.skotos.net/articles/TTnT_/TTnT_161.phtml

Quote:
I think whether or not the element of chance is appropriate to add to a game one is creating boils down to a matter of personal preference and maybe the type of game you're playing.

Absolutely.

Top
Wed, 06/14/2006 - 08:20
#4
Infernal
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
This whole thing about luck...

One resolution mechanic is that "The player who's turn it is wins". This is the resoultion mechanic used in Chess.

There are many resoultion mechanics, and more to be created. Dice/Randomness is only a subset of all available resolution mechanics.

Top
Wed, 06/14/2006 - 11:06
#5
Hedge-o-Matic
Hedge-o-Matic's picture
Offline
Joined: 07/30/2008
This whole thing about luck...

What differentiates playing a game from playing "make believe" is that all of the players agree to rules beforehand, and this includes any resolution mechanisms for opposed interests. The players agree to follow the rules even when game events go against them. No "Bang! You're dead!" "No, you missed!" problems.

The beautiful thing about dice, and other random generators is that they are impartial to the players, but can be brought into service by application of the rules. It would be like some ghostly voice telling one of the kids playing make-believe "No, he really did hit you. But you aren't killed, so you can limp around and still fire back."

Another way to look at the inclusion of luck into games is how strongly players want to control the events. In abstract games, for instance, no luck is involved because abstract games are contests of pure perception and reasoning. Wargames, on the other hand, depict actual uncertain events, and are given to dramatic upsets and desperate last stands. The players accept a loosening of their control because doing so heightens the feel of the level of conflict the game simulates.

So, as designers, the unknown, regardless of the mechanism used to create it, is a tool to loosen the grip the players have on controlling the outcome. Some games benefit from loosening this "grip on the known", and some games are weakened or even destroyed by doing so.

As the General pointed out, hidden information is one type of loosening, and dice are another, as are tile draws, cards, double-blind movement, and simulaneous action. When used, the player is expected, as part of game play, to take into account their isolated point of view, which forbids them from knowing everything about the game state. Without an isolating factor, the player knows everything about the game state ("perfect information" games) and this isn't appropriate for all games, or even most games, perhaps because it is so very different from how we experience life.

Top
Wed, 06/14/2006 - 21:39
#6
JeffK
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
This whole thing about luck...

Another non-random combat mechanic is the one found in Magic:The Gathering. The actual combat is completely deterministic - Each combatant compares their Power with the other's Toughness. If one's Power equals or exceeds the other's toughness Toughness, the second creature dies. If both creatures have a Power exceeding the other's Toughness, both die. Damage is not carried over from round to round - a creature either dies or survives unscathed when the round ends.

The uncertainty comes from the wide variety of modifiers that can be applied throughout the course of a battle, from Sorcery cards, Instant cards or other creatures' special abilities. Plus, any creatures that attack during your turn will not be able to block during your opponent's turn, so you must choose your attackers carefully. Thus, even though the mechanic itself is completely non-random, there are a host of uncertainties (what cards does your opponent have in his hand that could foil your plans?) and tactical decisions (Do I launch a huge assault that would be hard to block or leave a few creatures back for defense?) that a player must deal with when deciding whether or not to launch an attack.

In fact, most CCG's do not use dice to determine the results of combat, even though combat is at the heart of most CCG's.

Jeff K.

Top
Sat, 06/17/2006 - 16:51
#7
Velociryx
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
This whole thing about luck...

I'm not sure I agree that MtG's combat system is non-random.

While it is certainly true that the basic combat mechanic is deterministic (that is to say, all else being equal, my 3/3 hill giant WILL trounce your 1/1 Goblin), but the makeup of each players' decks is itself a randomizing factor, as is the fact that you can (normally) only draw one card per turn, no more than 4 duplicates in the deck, etc....so the randomness is "shifted" to a diffierent plane of play, but is still very much a part of the mix (ie, you can't rely on having a "giant growth" in your hand when you need it, thus making your goblin 4/4, and ending my hill giant...and, you (generally) have no way of knowing what sorts of nastiness I might have in my hand....so again, the randomness is there.

Personally, I love randomness in games. "God-Games" (perfect info and/or completely deterministic) aren't really my thing...randomness is to gaming what salt is to food, IMO...:)

-=Vel=-

Top
Sat, 06/17/2006 - 20:58
#8
JeffK
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
This whole thing about luck...

I think we're in agreement re: Magic's combat system. The system itself is non-random, and the way in which each card affects a battle is non-random. However, the cards that are available to be put into play are random. It's a great system, I think, and strikes a good balance between uncertainty and determinism.

Jeff K.

Top
Sun, 06/18/2006 - 10:25
#9
Velociryx
Offline
Joined: 12/31/1969
This whole thing about luck...

*nods*

Makes sense to me, and I agree. MtG is a ROCKIN' game....erm...well, it was anyways. I've not bought any new stock since college...have no idea what the new stuff plays like, but the older sets ruled...:)

-=Vel=-

Top
Syndicate content


forum | by Dr. Radut