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The OTHER game designer's catch-22

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Mon, 09/27/2004 - 16:23
s2alexan
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Joined: 10/25/2008

There's the well-known catch-22 where publishers won't look at your games until you're published.

But I'm finding another huge problem is finding good playtesters. All the top designers have a large network of experienced, dedicated playtesters. I'm not saying they don't deserve them, but they are essential to a designer's success.

My gaming group, friends and family work great for developing games. But it's essential to have people who don't like you that much, who can give you honest feedback.

I have a couple of games that have had 99% of the bugs worked out, but need some blind playtesting, and some really honest feedback. Are there any gaming groups out there willing to "swap" some almost-finished games once in a while?

I've read through most of the posts in this forum, but does anyone have any other suggestions for this? What do the rest of you do?

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Mon, 09/27/2004 - 16:37
#1
Anonymous
The OTHER game designer's catch-22

Take five people. The poorer the connection between you and them the better (ie: not your mom, or best friend). These five people should be from as diverse backgrounds as possible. They don't have to be professionals just people with a head on there shoulders. Give them the board when u think you have all the glitches out of it. It doesn’t need to look perfect just operate perfectly. Maybe write out your own comment sheet and let them return it to you once they have played the game fully, that's what usually works for me.

hope i could help,

Aaron l

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Mon, 09/27/2004 - 17:45
#2
Joe_Huber
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Re: The OTHER game designer's catch-22

s2alexan wrote:
There's the well-known catch-22 where publishers won't look at your games until you're published.

I've never seen any evidence that this is true. Hans im Glueck was willing to give a look to the first game I thought decent enough to show them. Before getting Scream Machine published, I had games looked at by over a half dozen different companies.

Joe

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Tue, 09/28/2004 - 10:07
#3
s2alexan
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Re: The OTHER game designer's catch-22

Joe_Huber wrote:

I've never seen any evidence that this is true. Hans im Glueck was willing to give a look to the first game I thought decent enough to show them. Before getting Scream Machine published, I had games looked at by over a half dozen different companies.

Joe

That's very encouraging, thanks! I've heard a lot of people get lots of rejections, but perhaps a well-crafted initial query letter is the foot in the door. There's a lot of good advice out there on how to write them, so it's good to know some companies will judge based on the quality of submissions alone.

I've heard several good reports from Hans im Glueck in particular.

Stefan

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Tue, 09/28/2004 - 11:02
#4
zaiga
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The OTHER game designer's catch-22

I agree with Joe, it is not impossible to get your game reviewed by a publisher, even when you haven't got any designs published before. Hans Im Gluck reviewed one of my designs and I thought they were nice and honest people.

As for your question about finding playtesters: it is indeed hard and currently forms the main bottleneck for me to push my designs further. I always first test my designs with a couple of good friends, but at a certain point you have to let the cat out of the bag, so to speak, and find "strangers" to get to play your game.

A few weeks ago FastLearner invited people here on the BGDF to playtest his game, and I think he got a couple of responses. That's one way to find playtesters. The downside to this approach is that you have to make several prototypes and send them out through mail, which may cost a lot. Also, you don't really know how good the quality of the feedback will be, since you are not physically there to observe the playing.

Another approach is to attend playing conventions or game fairs and set up a booth, or simply sit down at a free table or something, where people can play your games. This is something that I will try out in a few weeks. There's a gaming club here in the Netherlands that hires a booth at the "Spellenspektakel" (Games Spectacle) where aspiring designers can show their wares. I think that this is a great initiative, and I'm curious how it will go.

You could also check out the local gaming club (providing there is one, of course) and ask the people there if they want to playtest your game. In my experience most "gamers" enjoy trying out new games and love to discuss the mechanics of the game afterwards. It might be a hurdle to approach strangers, but really, what do you have to lose?

- René Wiersma

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Tue, 09/28/2004 - 13:40
#5
RookieDesign
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Joined: 12/31/1969
The OTHER game designer's catch-22

Depending on the game you have developed, the Game Design Workshop on this board can help have an objective review of your game.

I don't think many people reviewing on the GDW can actually play the game, but most of them can post positive review and open topics you never tought.

Look at it in the schedule below.

S2Alexan, since we in the same country I guess we could swap board.
Another place to look, is the college and university game club. They should be able to accomodate you. I'm planning to visit some in the near future to help me troubleshoot my game.

Take care

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Tue, 09/28/2004 - 14:07
#6
Anonymous
The OTHER game designer's catch-22

There are a few other possibilities for getting your game tested based on how far along the design path you are.

1. The GDW is great for everything from a rough prototype to a nearly finished game. You will get some great feedback from others on the board!

2. Got a game that is ready to play? Make the drive to the nearest get-together of BGDF members. A few of us from the Rochester area just drovve 4 hours this past weekend to attend a playtest session in Albany with others in that area. Everyone had a chance to pull out a game of theirs to playtest. Everyone in attendance gave great feedback on all the games and pointed to possible improvments. I'll bet you could probably find some in or near your area to get together. I'm sure there would be at least 4 or 5 of us that could get together if you're willing to drive to Buffalo or Rochester.

3. Try your local gaming stores. If they have tables for miniatures games or for CCG tournaments, there's a good possibility that they would let you use one to playtest your game. Other gamers are always interested in checking out something new.

4. Post fliers at a local college (high school?). Advertise for playtesters and organize a blind playtesting session. Many would probably be willing to do it for free if you throw in a pizza.

Best of luck!!

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Wed, 09/29/2004 - 12:14
#7
s2alexan
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The OTHER game designer's catch-22

Great advice all, thanks!

It seems like there's 2 "categories" of suggestions here - finding "random" people, so to speak, and finding "designers/gamers".

The first can be very useful for blind-testing the rules, getting honest feedback, and seeing if there's any major problems. They can tell you "this part didn't work, or wasn't fun".

I have a feeling that a lot of the development can come from having "designers/gamers" test your game. They can tell you "This part didn't work, why don't you try this mechanic instead?". They're also better at "exploiting" games and are more likely to find dominant strategies. Very useful, but also a lot harder to find...

I'll definitely be pursuing both options.

Stefan

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Wed, 09/29/2004 - 15:33
#8
RookieDesign
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Joined: 12/31/1969
The OTHER game designer's catch-22

SiskNY wrote:
2. Got a game that is ready to play? Make the drive to the nearest get-together of BGDF members. A few of us from the Rochester area just drovve 4 hours this past weekend to attend a playtest session in Albany with others in that area. Everyone had a chance to pull out a game of theirs to playtest. Everyone in attendance gave great feedback on all the games and pointed to possible improvments. I'll bet you could probably find some in or near your area to get together. I'm sure there would be at least 4 or 5 of us that could get together if you're willing to drive to Buffalo or Rochester.

Maybe it's time for the Canadian designer to meet soon. It look like most of us are from Ontario or Quebec. Ottawa could be a nice place to meet us there. I wouldn't mind Montreal, but I will be far for the people of Toronto.
Just an idea.

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Wed, 09/29/2004 - 16:31
#9
s2alexan
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Joined: 10/25/2008
Meeting of Canadian Designers?

RookieDesign wrote:

Maybe it's time for the Canadian designer to meet soon. It look like most of us are from Ontario or Quebec. Ottawa could be a nice place to meet us there. I wouldn't mind Montreal, but I will be far for the people of Toronto.
Just an idea.

Great idea... I'm just outside Toronto, but actually just working out being in Ottawa over Thanksgiving weekend - not the best time, I know, but I'll probably be there Friday the 8th to Tuesday the 12th. Anyone else around then?

Stefan

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Wed, 09/29/2004 - 19:01
#10
doho123
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The OTHER game designer's catch-22

Has anyone on the GDW actually "built" someone else's game and playtested it? I'm just wondering what the ratio is. Most of the responses I've seen are only regarding reading over the rules.

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Wed, 09/29/2004 - 20:22
#11
RookieDesign
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Joined: 12/31/1969
The OTHER game designer's catch-22

I know that some game aren't that bad. Like Fire and Ice #40, and Blue abstract at #41.

I knew nobody could build and play my game. That's why I rely more on people impression than playtest.

Maybe by doing this Generic Board Game Design on computer we could help a bit. Still too see.

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Wed, 09/29/2004 - 20:24
#12
sedjtroll
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The OTHER game designer's catch-22

doho123 wrote:
Has anyone on the GDW actually "built" someone else's game and playtested it? I'm just wondering what the ratio is. Most of the responses I've seen are only regarding reading over the rules.

Well, I have borrowed a copy of Everest (not built it though) from FastLearner, and Scurra sent me a copy of All For One (which I prettied up a bit), and I'm working on building a game inspired by galeninjapan's game idea (not the same as building someone else's game to play).

Other then that I've only read rules and thought real hard.

- Seth

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