CGD1 Theme: Spelunking

After the discussion in the previous thread, this is what the game has evolved toward in my mind. I'll preface by saying that as the first Collaborative Design Project I don't think it's too important that we break much new ground. Nor really do I think we should go for anything all that complex- simple theme, simple rules, simple game play... This does not mean the game should be devoid of interaction and decision making, I just think the point of this exercise is to see if we can get a coherent game together as a group.

I see this working similarly to Carcassone. I'm thinking "Place tile, move pawn" or else perhaps "move pawn to unknown space then play tile there" but that might not work out too well.

The goal should be something simple, like be the first out of the caves with treasure... such that there's a combination of victory points- if you run straight through and pick up no treasure, you don't necessarily win- but if you're the first one out you get a bonus (Sort of like Citadels where you get +4 for being the first to complete 8 districts and +2 to be anyone else that completes 8 districts).

Similarly the first player out of the cave could get +4 or whatever points and signal the end of the game, then anyone else getting out of the cave gets +2 points, and treasures make up the rest of the points.

I envision Treasure coming from different draw decks, say three of them. One deck could be mediocre treasures but not too dangerous traps (lots of Null (worthless) treasure and low value treasure), the next deck could have higher value treasures, fewer Null treasures, and some tools like Keys and Lanterns, and the last deck could have high value treasures but dangerous traps like bats whch chase you backwards (setting you back a lot) or things that make you lose a turn.

Finally the tiles, which could be square or hexagonal as discussed previously, could be pretty simple in their design- rock and open space, line up the edges like Carcassone, with some having various special elements like locked doors and one of three symbols corresponding to the three draw decks.

Whew, that sounds like a lot, but most of it came from the group discussion so far. We could apply some theme to that, like rival Archeologists trying to loot the biggest and best treasures (Indiana Jones or Lara Croft theme) or something.

Anyone else have any opinions/comments/ideas?

- Seth

Ok, so I envision a game where players are sort of racing through unexplored caves, trying to get out with the most, or most valuable, treasure. The first one out the far side of the cave gets bragging rights for being the first to conquer the caves, and therefore gets a bonus in scoring.

the treasures would be hidden in the caves, to be found strewn about the caves, on the bones of previous explorers who weren't lucky enough to find their way out, and in the ruins of underground stone cities built by ancient civilizations.

Players explore caves, braving Bats, Rats, and Traps trying to find treasure and their way out.

- Seth

I think I agree with Scurra. See my first post above for my thoughts on the mechanics of the whole thing, and see my second post above for my thoughts on one of the scenarios.

For example, that could be the base game, and there could be a "Journey to the Center of the Earth" expansion or spinoff (a la Hunters and Gatherers) where the mechanics are the same but instead of collecting treasures you are fleeing Dinos and uncovering lost cities... in this case the player to get to the Center of the Earth first gets the bonus, but the scoring is for finding more cities or something.

Just exploring the caves sounds like there's not enough to it for a game. I suppose the players could be charged with mapping a new cave system, so the more "rooms" you find (as opposed to just tunnels, a room would be a completed cave room- in the way a ciy is a closed group of city tiles in Carcassone). So you score for finishing a room. This sounds to me almost exactly like Carcassone Light.

- Seth

Note: I'm breaking FastLearner's rule about only talking about theme, partly because I think theme and mechanics are interwoven concepts in this game...

In order to have a decision in a game, there has to be the possibility of some good result, and the possibility of some bad result. Otherwise it's an automatic "yes" or "no" - the easiest way to deal with that is treasure and traps.

This may be the easiest way, but not necessarily the only "easy" way. For example, you advocated a deck where you might draw a treasure or might draw a trap. That's one way to create tension, but you don't necessarily have to resort to random factors like a draw pile to do it. For example, you could also have the game revolve around visiting "sites of great natural beauty" (nice stalactites or underwater grottos or whatever), and the person who visits the most gets the most points. Presumably, this would turn the game into a route-planning game (how do I visit the most sites?), with perhaps some problem solving aspects (how will I overcome the difficulties presented by the obstacles in my route).

I agree with you that with a decision must come a possible reward and a possible consequence, but these need not be binary (either I'll draw a "good" card or a "bad" card) -- the far more subtle way to do it is to have the reward and the consequence be the SAME thing -- for example, "if I choose Settler, I can take the lone Tobacco plantation, but I won't be able to get that Quarry I want". The possible reward is that the Tobacco plantation will further the player's aims, but the possible consequence is that there might be a situation where a quary is nice to have. So a decision in a game need not be about "good" or "bad", but rather, between "this" and "that".

It may be the case that "traps and treasures" is a simple and brilliant way to evoke the theme you're trying to establish. But there may be other simple ways to establish atmosphere as well. Perhaps, then, I do actually agree with FastLearner that we should not focus too much on "how should the game play" at this point so much as "how should the game feel?"

But again, there are a lot of great exploration games out there, and being cognizant of their systems, themes, and mechanics would be a good move for us, since there's really no point in creating a game system that has already been done, or at least I see no point in that excercise. Again, I'm really concerned that games like Lost Cities, Goldland or Nautilus or Destination Tresor (none of which I've actually played, but all of which I've read the rules for...) have done the exploration thing in spades, and I don't see how we're going to top those. I know, I know, we're not actually trying to create a "better" game, just to create "a game". But doesn't anyone else feel it's a waste of time to create a game just for the sake of creating a game? I got 75% of the way done on my competition entry, then realized that while it was probably pretty ok, I didn't have any interest in actually building and playing it.

I guess my point is that to me, if I was going to create an exploration game by myself, I'd want to identify what aspect of exploration other games have failed to capture adequately. (for example, maybe no game has properly taken into account that aspect of exploration unique to mining where the deeper you dig, the greater the risk of cave-in, or something like that...) Or, I'd want to identify a new mechanical way of evoking the exploration theme. For example, most exploration games probably have a tile-laying element; could we pull of a game that was a bidding game instead? (not really advocating that, just attempting to show how my process works...)

I'm afraid I can't be terribly more helpful in this, but I guess what I'm trying to articulate is that when people say "I think we should make a Jules Vern-themed game" or a "Lara Croft-themed game", that doesn't say anything to me. To me, I want to know what ASPECTS of exploration the game is going to evoke. That's partially a mechanics issue, but it's also a theme issue. In Lord of the Rings, to say "the theme is Lord of the Rings" is not descriptive of anything at all. Better, to me, to describe the ATMOSPHERE the game creates -- "you feel like you're about to be caught at any moment, and the whole quest hangs by a thread". So I think the more foundational, or at least more interesting, question than "what ought the theme to be?" is "what EXPERIENCE do we want the game to provide?"

Just some ramblings...

-Jeff

The only differnce I can see between
indiana Jones and Goonies are the characters on the artwork.

The other ways I can think of would be:

Mining for precious materials (even though you could say that it's treasure) or

Actually racing to claim cool cave features to open your cave to the public as a tourist trap. This to me, is a more literal translation of Spelunking, since that's about exploring the cave for a cave's sake. Any other treasure race just seems to be a dungeon crawl to me.

Since we're obviously not shying away from proprietary material (which I agree with wholeheartedly), let me also enter as a possible theme The Mines of Moria. Most likely, the best way to do this would be to have players be marching through the Mines, looking for gems/mithrill/etc, but trying to avoid the various perils that await them. Alternatively, they could be the Fellowship, just trying to get from one side to the other. Or, they could be trying to find the quickest way through, yet that may not necessarily be the least dangerous. Or, perhaps this is Moria in its hey-day, before the orcs took over, and players are either trying to mine for Mithrill (which has the risk of awakening the Balrog, which ends the game), or maybe they have to trade with the nearby peoples, each of whom accesses the mines through a different exit.

This one could go in a lot of different directions. Feel free to modify it as you see fit!

-Jeff

Anyway, since I usually like trying to do the un-obvious when it comes to games, here's just a rough outline of a direction that I would go in:

Eech player is creating his own cave system to open up to tourists. Each player has a board to place tiles. Various tiles have either A)high scoring cavern features but only one edge of access to a neighboring tile B)low or no scoring passageways, but 3 or four edges that can branch off to other tiles or C) tour trap features (concession stand, boat tours, giant climbable dinosaur) and D)tourists.

XX amount of tiles are revealed face up, there's some sort of bidding mechamism for the players to select the order in which the tiles are taken. There is one cave 'enterance' on the player's board. Players can place cave tiles anywhere on his board, but scoring tiles only count if they can be traced back to the enterance. Once a cave tile is placed, it cannot be re-arranged. Tourist trap features score bonus points and do not have to sit on the board. Any tourist tiles that is taken by a player triggers a scoring round for all players, with the player who takes the tourist tile getting a bonus.

Game ends when all tiles are exhausted, or maybe when all tourist tiles are revealed from the deck.

I still have a problem with this being called Luck-Heavy. Although the cards are not the same (obv.) in any stack, it's not a complete mystery what you are going to get, because you know what kinds of cards can be found in each pile (I'm talking about my prior suggestion here with the three draw piles, each with a different risk/reward ratio)- also you don't HAVE to draw them, it's a choice to be made.

Thematically, if you go sifting around through a pile of bones, you MIGHT find some dudes wallet. Or you might find a nest of rats or a skeleton key or knife or lantern. Or you might just find more bones. If the theme is "diving into caves in search of X" (which it appears some people like and some dont) then implicit in the search is some randomness of what you'll find. I think my proposed system actually takes some of the luck OUT of the equation.

At any rate, I rather liked Doho's suggestion. I don't know if I'd like the game as much as the Indiana Jones style treasure hunt/race which to me feels like more direct competition- though admittedly less strategic and less "german style" than the proposed tourist trap game. The tourist trap sounds like a very solid idea.

Perhaps we could go through the process and develop both a german style Tourist Trap business simulation as well as a Family style Treasure Hunt/Race with the competing Archeologist theme.

- Seth

Luck/randomness in a game isn't necessarily a negative. It's just part of the experience. As you say, if you go sifting through a pile of bones, maybe you find something, maybe you don't. Any game system to simulate this is going to involve luck of the draw. You may have clever means of suppressing that, but it's still going to involve random factors. And that is totally ok. It's all just a question of whether people want chess, which is 0% luck, or candyland, which is 100% luck, or something in between.

It sounded very similar to something I'd heard of before, then I remembered what it was: Doho's own Yellowstone game! Doho, isn't this similar to your already-fully-developed idea? The only differences seem to be that players are working on their own boards rather than a "common" board, and instead of bidding for action order, you're bidding for specific tiles. (which probably doesn't work thematically)

I am all for a straight up spelunking game with a tourism slant, but let's be sure we don't just redo Doho's game...

2 games? Wow, I must admit, you guys are way more ambitious than I am.

By the way, could someone explain the difference between a "German style" game and a "Family style" game? I could see that some themes are unpalatable for "family-friendly" play, but is there something that people mean with respect to mechanics that a game is "Family style" in some way in distinction from "German style"?

-J

That might be the right way to see it. At the least, it tells me what you meant by your comments, thanks!

This of course is complicated by the fact that some designers, like Knizia, eg, have designed "kids' games" like Katzenjammer Blues and Honeybears which, while "light", are still very "German", in the sense of the kind of decisions a player must make.

So to me, I guess I've always thought that German and Family are adjectives that can actually go together; I've never thought them to be exclusive. But I don't have the market cornered on the terms, so I was just curious if other people were using them differently than me.

As long as we all know what we each mean, doesn't really matter...

-J

Fair Enough. I figure by the time we're done with one, there will be a lot of good starting points for other ones.

On that note, are the other CGD (pre-vote) threads available somewhere?

- Seth

I clicked that and got "The forum you selected does not exist"

I'm not sure what you mean by proprietary material. I wouldn't want to use Disney material because then if we develop any sort of audience, we'll get sued. I would also consider Journey to the Center of the Earth and Moria (if it's what I think it is) to be proprietary but they're public domain.

The good thing about propietary material is that it will give the game a more familiar feel so more people will be interested in trying it, so we should definately use something.