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discussion: Tile placement

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phpbbadmin
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Folks,
We need to discuss how we want to implement tile placement.

Here is a quote from Sedj's 'moving on' post:

Quote:

Cave Exploration
It has been decided that this will be a tile laying game, and that players will move pawns through a board created by the tiles. It has not been decided how exactly this will work. here are some ideas, please add others (and discussion of them) and maybe we can put this to a vote at some point.

Draw, Place, Move: players first draw and place a tile (Carcassone style), then move their pawn (according to movement rules to be determined)
Move, Draw, Place: Players move their pawn, and only draw and place a tile when moving onto 'uncharted territory.' This eases the pain of who's explored which tiles (it's done when the tile is placed), and is more with the exploratory theme.
Hand of Tiles: When a tile is to be played, rather than drawing a random tile, choose one from a hand of X tiles (however many we decide). This eliminates some down time as people can think about their move during other players turns to an extent. To keep the options to a reasonable number, a hand of just 1 might be what we need.
Pool of Tiles: When a tile is to be played, rather than drawing a random tile, choose one from a faceup pool of X tiles (however many we decide). The remainnig tiles could remain, or be discraded (turned back face down) and X new tiles could be revealed. These kinds of options give players varying degrees of control over the layout of the caverns.

Does anyone have anything to add? Let's discuss the pros/cons of the techniques and then we'll have a vote.

-Darke

Scurra
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discussion: Tile placement

I'm a proponent of the "move, draw, place" system, because it offers a different "feel" to the usual tile-laying system, and also because it can lead to those wonderful "oh hell" moments, when you have to place something that another player is going to be able to exploit long before you get to do anything about it.

Which is also why I support the blind draw system, rather than a range of options. Yes, it slows the game down in that people have to think abut placements, but set against that is the likelihood that with the sort of game we are doing, the options for placement will be far more limited than in something like Carcassonne.

sedjtroll
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discussion: Tile placement

Scurra wrote:
I'm a proponent of the "move, draw, place" system, because it offers a different "feel" to the usual tile-laying system, and also because it can lead to those wonderful "oh hell" moments, when you have to place something that another player is going to be able to exploit long before you get to do anything about it.

So, to be clear, when a player moves their pawn "off the edge" of the existing tiles, they draw a new tile and place it in that location (and move onto it). If for some reason it doesn't fit, a new tile could be drawn.

I agree that move/place is probably better than place/move for this game. However I think having a little more control over what tile is placed would be nice. Even if it's just "flip up three tiles, choose one of those 3 and place it in the spot you just moved to." Thematically it's a little abstract, but I think it makes for a deeper game.

- Seth

sedjtroll
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discussion: Tile placement

My last reply is based on the feel of exploring the cave. For deeper strategy perhaps the Place/Move mechanic would actually be better- more informed choices, can do a hand of tiles (even if just 1 tile) to cut down on down time... but thematically it isn't as good because you could place over *there* then move over *here*... not really exploring. I think right now I'd vote for the other option (Move/Place). I'd like to hear more discussion on it.

- Seth

phpbbadmin
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my thoughts

I'm interpreting move/place differently. I was thinking you couldn't move into an area where a tile didn't already exist. In other words, in order to move somewhere, a tile must have already been placed there. I don't like moving 'blindly' onto a square.

That brings me to another question: Do the players place a tile every turn or do they only play a tile when they are moving onto an unexplored space? If we choose the latter, that would reward folks for exploring because they would be first to discover tiles. If we choose the former, then a potentially lucrative tile might be revealed away from everyone and it'd be fun to see everyone racing to get to it first. The 'trail blazer' play style (those who try to move as quickly as possible through the cave) would still be rewarded by finding exists quickly.

This is the way I envision the turn sequence:

1) Players move their explorers onto preexisting tiles and perform whatever actions.
- Then at the end of their turn they... -
2) Play 1 tile from their hand (tile 'hand' can be anywhere from a single tile to possibly 4 tiles, obviously the more tiles you have in your hand the better you can 'plan' the cave, perhaps 2 tiles in hand would be a good balance).
3) Draw one tile, if available, from the tile stock to replenish the 1 tile you played.

Well those are my thoughts.
-Darke

sedjtroll
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Re: my thoughts

Darkehorse wrote:
I'm interpreting move/place differently. I was thinking you couldn't move into an area where a tile didn't already exist. In other words, in order to move somewhere, a tile must have already been placed there. I don't like moving 'blindly' onto a square.

That brings me to another question: Do the players place a tile every turn or do they only play a tile when they are moving onto an unexplored space?

That's the crux of the question... if you're really exploring, then you don't know what you're getting into... but for a more strategic game you want to play tiles away from your pawn.

Do we want to seperate "exploration" from "cave creation"? We as players create the cave, and we as characters explore it? But how do we KNOW there's a cave feature over there?

The way I was thinking the "valuable tiles" wouldn't really turn up at all, because all tiles are pretty much the same. The Value comes from the card drawn when an appropriate area is searched.

So then it doesn't matter too much that your randomly drwing tiles to place in the spot you just moved to, as far as scoring goes. It's all about searching.

One might argue that you can only search in certain locations, so it's still chance as to who gets the right tiles for that, but then that's where the 'hand of tiles' or 'pool of tiles' comes into play.

- Seth

Scurra
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discussion: Tile placement

Well I'm somewhere in the middle - I would like people not to be able to move directly into "unexplored" spaces, but that new tiles would have to be placed somehow in "line of sight" of the player's pawn (maybe they're shining their torch that way or something?!)

That makes it doubly annoying if another player is able to scoot into the newly revealed tile.

This would only really work with the caves and passages system that was sketched out previously though. And I don't know if you could do "bends" properly.

phpbbadmin
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Some options

Here are a couple of options:

    Players can play a tile on any spot adjacent to the tile their explorer is on.
    Players can play a tile adjacent to any tile where they can trace a path back to their starting point. Basically the entire cave system their explorer is in.

I am leaning towards the first option. I think it (sort of) incorporates Scurra's line of sight idea rather well. Thematically it also makes a lot of sense. What does everyone think of that idea? If we can agree on where to place the tiles, then we can decide when to place them and how we draw them.

-Darke

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Scurra
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discussion: Tile placement

"Adjacent to the explorer" does still allow for the player to be able to place a tile in an unexpected place, which is important (you know, like the way you place tiles in Carcassonne to ensure that a city can't be completed and so on). Maybe they're squinting through a crack in the wall or something? :)

This would also still work with the "place a counter if you are the first explorer in a cave" mechanic I pioposed in the other thread.

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