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Game #35 - Element by rkalajian

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Fri, 06/25/2004 - 08:05
rkalajian
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Joined: 12/31/1969

Alright, since it looks like we lost June, i'll post this again (Even if the week is just about over).

I've updates the rules and cards a bit from the suggestions i've already gotten.

Here they are:

http://www.winter-wind.com/files/element/elementrules.doc
http://www.winter-wind.com/files/element/cards01.pdf
http://www.winter-wind.com/files/element/cardso2.pdf
http://www.winter-wind.com/files/element/cards03.pdf
http://www.winter-wind.com/files/element/cards04.pdf

And all of these files zipped.

http://www.winter-wind.com/files/element/element.zip

Again, if you wish to play the game you will need to print 3 copies of each card sheet, 5 different color dice, and 4 sets of different color counter or pen and paper.

For the wild die 1=void, 2=water, 3=fire, 4=earth, 5=wind, 6=sunburst.

Thanks again for all the great feedback i've already gotten.[/url]

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Tue, 06/29/2004 - 20:05
#1
GeminiWeb
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Joined: 07/31/2008
Game #35 - Element by rkalajian

Hi,

Games looks interesting but I must admit I got confused by the rules ... sorry if there are simple answers to all these - it might just be one of those days for me ...

I assume ...
- the element stones come in 4 types and are used to keep track of score
- your scoring element stones make up your Void Pool

If you have 3 Ether cards and you pick up one, you mention that you must discard one. Is that meant to be discard OR play one?

In your example using the Wild Die, you mention that if a Sunburst was rolled, it could not be use to add 2 to Fire since it was the owest roll - but I see no reference to this restriction prior to the example (although I can imagine that you may have wanted to keep it low to maximimise the 2 water points). Also, you mention that Void has already been shown in the above example, but it doesn't appear to have been used ... does this mean it really is a 'may subtract' rather than 'must subtract' (similar for Sunburst although I suspect you would always want to). Is there a maximum value of 6 or is it permissbale to get an 8 (=6+2). Similarly, is a 0 allowed (1-1=0).

Also had a quick look at a few of the cards and had some questions.

Does negate a roll mean
- count that roll as a zero
- score no points when referencing that element (e.g. negating fire would mean no score to Fire or Water)
- score no points for that particular element

Is the 'pay all from your Void Pool to empty all opponents Void Pools' and mechanism for resetting all scores back to zero? Would this happen too often to make it difficult to end the game?

Regarding 'pay 10 fro your Void Pool to roll all dice again, do not add points from this roll to the Void Pool', whyat advantage is there if you don't get the points?

Bill

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Wed, 06/30/2004 - 07:51
#2
rkalajian
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Game #35 - Element by rkalajian

Whoops, looks like I made a few mistakes here when editing the rules. I've posted a new version now to clear up the confusion.

Yes, stones come in 4 types.

There is no more Void Pool. You just have a pool of all your stones.

You can only have a max of 3 ehter cards in your hand. When it comes time to draw a new card you must discard or play a card if you already have 3 cards.

The example situation got messed up and has been fixed. You may now add 2 to any roll if you roll sunburst, and subtract 1 from any roll with a void. Void is not shown in the example, and that sentance has been taken out.

Negating a roll means the whole roll is made null.
Negating an element just means they score no points in that element.

As for the cards, I hadn't updated them for the current rules before, but have just uploaded new cards. All references to the void pool have been taken out and replaces with different rules. The "Pay all to remove all" and "Pay 10 roll again for no void" cards have been taken out or edited to fit the game better. The cards are still a work in progress. Playtesting has been showing me which cards work better than others.

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Wed, 07/14/2004 - 10:18
#3
jwarrend
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Joined: 08/03/2008
Game #35 - Element by rkalajian

Sorry to be responding somewhat late in the game to this, I'm still getting caught up. My initial reaction when I first read the game was very similar to my reaction to Disc -- cute idea for a mechanic, but one with almost no decisions. In this game, though, the cards clearly add some decision making, and I think there's some potential for interesting bluffing; you need 20 points in your "secret color", but if you pursue it to the exclusion of all other colors, it will be obvious what you are looking for and everyone else will hit you in that color.

This, in fact, leads to my big concern to the game: that to the randomness of die rolling, you've added "take that!" card play. Now, I happen to not really find "take that!" card play to be very enjoyable. Some people absolutely love it, and in a short game, it's probably fine. I just find that it is usually very hard to make intelligent decisions when someone else is able to drop a card that will blow all my plans out of the water. Where I think you rise above this somewhat is that it costs resources to drop a card on someone, which I think could be particularly interesting because if you choose to pay resources that don't contribute to your goal, that again could telegraph your "true" color and then everyone else will hammer you.

I do worry that the game could "lock up", in the sense that any time someone is close to 20 in any color, the other players will hit him in that color, preventing him from winning, and this could continue for a while. I guess it depends on the cards people have in their hands. One of my first games had a mechanic whereby people could lose points, and since the game was a race to reach X VPs, this could extend the length of the game. My friend observed that this was not a good mechanic -- you want the end of the game to be fixed and inevitable, and progress towards it should be uni-directional. Now, it seems that changing this aspect would change the soul of your game, I guess I'd just watch out for games that run way too long.

This game reminds me quite a bit of a game called "Mystic War", in which players are wizards trying to reach a goal quantity in a "secret" area. But that game didn't have the die rolling mechanic that yours has; still, it might be worth looking at.

All in all, your game seems to have a combo of elements that I don't really care for in games -- die rolling as a way to get VPs, take that! card play, and secret player identities. Yet, it seems that the whole could be more than the sum of its parts, and there could be an interesting little game in there. I hope that you're able to attend our next "Albany Playfest", as I'd really like to get a chance to try this one out at some point. (I also want to try "Disc", as well...)

It sounds like you're ready to publish this one. Just out of curiosity, how extensively have you playtested the game? I might suggest considering Thompson's and DarkDream's experience, as discussed in this thread. Take your time, and get a broad consensus of opinion. There's no reason to rush, and every reason to be patient.

Best of luck with your project!

-Jeff

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Wed, 07/14/2004 - 10:31
#4
rkalajian
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Game #35 - Element by rkalajian

The points you have brought up are all valid concerns. I've had several playtest sessions where things kind of "Hang up" and i've been working on ways to fix them.

As for production, i'm in a stage of "ready for production" (meaning i'm gather parts to assemble and calculating costs) but I'm still in a playtesting phase. I try to play the game as much as possible with as many different people. My biggest concern of late has been the content of the cards. As you pointed out, there are more cards for the offensive than the defensive. The game has come a long way since its first set of rules, but still has a way to go before I decide to sell it. Realistically (though sometimes I fool myself into thinking sooner) I probably won't have the game ready till sometime near or after the holiday.

As for Disc....let's just say that its been shelved for a while in light of more interesting projects (as seen in my journal i'm working on some game settings for winter-wind's HDL system RPG rules), but Element is my number one priority right now.

Now getting to Albany...is the next playfest scheduled yet? The farther ahead I know in advance the easier it might be for me to go.

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Wed, 07/14/2004 - 10:47
#5
jwarrend
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Game #35 - Element by rkalajian

There's nothing formally scheduled, but I would probably expect something might happen in the fall; beyond that I couldn't say...

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Fri, 07/16/2004 - 09:27
#6
rkalajian
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Game #35 - Element by rkalajian

After reading Jeff's post a few times and talking about it with my playtesters one of them made the suggestion "Why not get rid of the numbers?"

Of course I thought this was a bad idea at first considering the game revolves around the numbers, but after thinking about it for a while it kind of made sense. I'm gonna start testing the game with each die having a void, water, wind, fire, wind side and then each die's sixth side will be a double for each element and then the sunburst. Since I didn't explain that very well i'll elaborate

die 1: void, water, fire, earth, wind, double water
die 2: void, water, fire ,earth, wind, double fire
die 3: void, water, fire, earth, wind, double earth
die 4: void, water, fire, earth, wind, double wind
die 5: void, water, fire, earth, wind, sunburst

Still working on some new mechanics, but gameplay will hopefully remain similar (though the cards will be reworked to get rid of the "TAKE THAT" feeling to them.

I really don't know if this is the right direction for the game or even the direction I would like to go, but if it makes the game better then what the hell :)

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Thu, 10/21/2004 - 14:55
#7
rkalajian
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Game #35 - Element by rkalajian

Here's the latest set of rules. No cards anymore, just dice. Still need to work a mech out for 3 players.

http://www.tremorworks.com/downloads/elementrules.doc

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Thu, 10/21/2004 - 16:04
#8
sedjtroll
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Joined: 07/21/2008
Game #35 - Element by rkalajian

rkalajian wrote:
Here's the latest set of rules. No cards anymore, just dice. Still need to work a mech out for 3 players.

Admittedly, I didn't really look into this game the first time around. However looking at this new ruleset, and reading the responses from before, I think Jeff's post still applies. At least the part where he said there's no decision making.

It looks to me like the game is "lets roll dice and see who won". Sure, there's the Press Your Luck aspect, but that's just what it says it is... luck.

I don't know what the cards were that you had before, but I can't imagine them doing anything but add to the choices in the game. Yuo'd have to make choices based on what you've got.

That said, I like the dice and how they've got the elements right on them. Almost looks like a non-transitive dice system (like we've been talking about in another thread).

In Jeff's reply earlier he mentioned paying for cards with what amounts to VPs or possible VPs. That sounded really good. Even without cards you could perhaps have a system where you collect elements of each type, then spend them to do something, like roll the dice. Maybe make the dice less symmetric, and you pay a Fire element to roll the Fire die, and you would choose to do that because your opponent is rolling the Water die. Or something like that.

Anyway, like the dice, but it feels like there's no real game there.

- Seth

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Thu, 10/21/2004 - 16:41
#9
rkalajian
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Joined: 12/31/1969
Game #35 - Element by rkalajian

Yes, you're right about it not being much of a game. Through playtesting though, the players were quick to get rid of the cards and numbered die. They also liked the luck pushing and ability to "steal" players rolls.

Most of the new rules have come through playtesting. There isn't much choice other than Chance and Death rolls, but the game seems to have an overall good feel in a large group of people.

I'm still playtesting, so we'll see what else comes of it.

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