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Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

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Zomulgustar
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Joined: 07/31/2008

Thanks again to jwarrend for his allowing me to have this week's slot despite my relatively recent appearance on the BGDF. I hope that I won't disappoint you guys when it's your turn. ^_^ I've uploaded the rules here. I had some technical difficulties with the sample graphics/scoring examples, but hopefully everything is clear enough. If not, let me know and I'll get something up tomorrow.

This game has gone through several revisions since its (broken) original form (still playable as 'Pirelli' at buttonmen.dhs.org if you care). While this latest version hasn't been playtested, I've tried enough different variations that I believe the core mechanic to have proven very robust, and I've done some statistical analysis to fine-tune some aspects of play to match the best emergent aspects of the original game while discarding the worst.

So why am I posting it here? First, because I'm a perfectionist, and there are a few points I'm not satisfied with. Secondly, because I've been driven so batty by a simple question that I'm willing to throw it all away and start from scratch if need be. Namely, WHAT IS THIS GAME _ABOUT_? I desperately need a title and a theme, and to that end I'm willing to tweak the incidentals of gameplay as long as the core mechanics stay recognizable.

But to outline rules issues first...I don't like leaving one player with an apparently substantial starting advantage. Several ways to fix this(?):

A. Make tied endgame scores go to the player starting without the token.

B. Remove the six tiles from each player's set that do not have any lines extending to the edges, and combine them into double-sided tiles with one side indicating ownership by each player. During the setup phase, add a step where the player who didn't set up the coins on the board divides these tiles into two sets, and places the token with one of them. The coin-placing player then chooses which set to take.

C. Again, remove the six 'blank' tiles from each player's set. and increase the number on each tile one, so that the sets are now numbered 1-6. Add a reasonable number of neutral-colored 'blank' 0-tiles. The player not placing coins chooses a number (possibly none) of 0-tiles to place with the token, and a presumably larger number for the opposite side. The remainder are discarded, then the opponent chooses which set to take.

D. In addition to the changes made in either option B or C, add two new tiles to be distributed: The '?' tile is secretly selected like any other, but when revealed allows the player to choose a different tile to play in its place, having already seen the opponent's selection. After being used, it is discarded.

‘A’ might not be enough, and necessitates an extra 'bit' while removing disincentive from using the token late in the game. I'm worried that options B+C reduce strategic flexibility more than they restore balance and D is one step down a slippery slope I should either stay away from or throw myself down wholeheartedly. I think I'll use my lifeline on this one, or will the audience supply option E?

So why am I working with a rectangular grid? Clarity, mostly. While I've looked into other ways of grouping cells into majority-scoring regions, most aren’t as visually intuitive as the grid. I'm very open to the idea of using a different layout, though, especially if it meshes well with the new theme. The most workable (IMHO) is playing much the same game on a planar cubic graph (i.e. the surface of a dodecahedron or something a bit more irregular). 'Tiles' would be played on the lines of the graph, would contribute toward majority scores for the areas they surrounded, and could make triplets with the other two lines coming together at each vertex. The difficulty of designing ‘tiles’ that would easily play onto any of the lines of a board that looks like these while remaining easily readable formidable, so if any of the visually inclined among you have any suggestions, please do chime in.

The core mechanic just whacked me upside the head out of the blue one day while trying to fix a rather different game. If I’m delusional about it being at all original, please feel free to apply a HubrisBGon(TM) brand CluBy4. Thanks VERY much for your time...while I'm nervous about subjecting this to public scrutiny, I look forward to seeing the phoenix which might yet arise from what's left of this when you're through with it.

fanaka66
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Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

Zom,

I'll take a stab at this. I'm not much of an abstract player, but why do you need a theme? It seems that if a theme fits nicely in to your game, great!, but if you have to force one, then don't bother. I would think that your target audience would rather play an intriguing abstract with no theme, then playing the part of rabbits digging up carrots (or soemthing similar). I could be wrong about this, though.

A couple of questions:

In setup, the player that places the scoring coins, do they pick the 12 coins randomly and then place them how they like, or do they select and place them both by choice? In play, how does this work? Are there good strategies and bad stragies to their placement, or is it more dependent on who plays better with the resulting setup? And how is it determined who will place these coins?

In equipment, it says that you will have "A 6×6 square board, with distinct cells along the edge for the scoring markers" and "20 large coins numbered 1-3". These large coins are the scoring markers, right? You probably need to pick one term or the other and stick to it, to reduce confusion.

The token changes hands each time, right? Unless I missed it in the rules, it looks like it only changes hands when the players select tiles with the same numerical value.

Why do you score the rows when they get filled? Doesn't this disrupt play a bit? Can't it all wait until the end for scoring?

I think I need to see some examples for scoring the triplets. (Actually, re-reading the rules just now, I think I got it, but visuals examples would still help).

I didn't realize that Pirelli is a work in progress. I tried it on BM.com a couple of times (and had little clue what was going on). Any chance they will host an updated version? I would definitely give it another try, now that I really took the time to learn the rules.

Anonymous
Re: Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

Zomulgustar wrote:
The core mechanic just whacked me upside the head out of the blue one day while trying to fix a rather different game. If I’m delusional about it being at all original, please feel free to apply a HubrisBGon(TM) brand CluBy4. Thanks VERY much for your time...while I'm nervous about subjecting this to public scrutiny, I look forward to seeing the phoenix which might yet arise from what's left of this when you're through with it.

A very interesting game, and I particularly like the mechanic of revealing piece simultaneously and deciding who places them on the basis of their values. Also, the use of the token as a tie-breaker and the dilemma of "do I give it up to place these?" is very fun.

The play on the board doesn't grab me as much as the rest of the game, but I still like it. It seems a little like Kingdoms (aka Auf Heller und Pfenning) in the placement of pieces in rows and columns, with the need to look at the ramifications a piece will have in many directions. This looks like a game where that would be hard to judge without playing (I couldn't get to the "Button Men" website without registration), but I wonder if I'll often know whether or not a certain play is good for me or whether it'll feel like I'm fumbling in the dark?

As for a theme, I can see fanaka66's point, but personally I'd like one. Perhaps the tiles are areas of Ocean, with the theme revolving around piracy? Players are pirates, staking out the areas they are going to terrorise, and the numbers on tiles translate to the number of pirate ships on a tile. The rows/columns are the routes of treasure ships, with the coins representing prizes that will be taken by the pirate doing the most dilligent patrolling (i.e. has the highest numerical value) along that route. The lines on the tiles become trade routes, which are also worth patrolling (i.e. having ships deployed along them).

While the game would remain rather abstract, there's an indescribable advantage, in my eyes, at least, to a game with soe sort of theme. Unless it creates "theme deficit" (a Greg Schloesser term to describe the pheneomenon where a theme distracts or confuses because the mechanics are counterintuitive to the theme-- he said Bridges of Shangri-La entered that realm) it will help remember what different bits are and give a more memorable reference to what is essentially an orientated line or a 0-5 number.

I'll watch for your replies to the rules queries that have come up and then reply again. Thanks for showing us the game!

Best wishes,

Richard.

jwarrend
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Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

First, my customary two comments, simply because I love hearing myself talk: (a) Heavily playtested games are sometimes hard to comment on, since they have a "close to done" feeling. (b) Abstracts are hard to comment on (for me) since the spatial element is important.

Yours is, interestingly, the 2nd in a row we've had that was, basically, "here's a done abstract that needs a theme". This is a somewhat new "use" for the GDW. I think it's acceptable, but my personal feeling is I'd also in general like to comment on gameplay issues rather than just being a "theme guinea pig". I think you and Scurra are on level ground, but bottom line for future submitters of abstracts, the GDW is much more about "game design" issues than theme issues. As long as we can talk about the design as well as the theme, it's fine.

Ok, onto the game. Your rulebook is short, which is ok, but making it longer would probably make it more clear, which would be better. Fanaka already pointed out that it's confusing to use different terminology to describe the same effect. I confess, I'm having a very hard time visualizing how the game works. A sample diagram of the game state about halfway through would help tremendously.

I like the tension of "high number scores more, but low number lets you control placement". And your tie breaker seems as good as any. I don't really get where the coins are being placed. It might be cool to have one player place coins at the end of each of the 6 rows and the other player to place coins at the end of each column; perhaps it works that way already.

A wild theme idea that would make the game totally different would be "making hotel chains"; the lines on the tiles now represent "roads", and the tiles are 0-5 star hotels that are built along those routes. The idea would be that when a route was "completed" in some way, the "coin" at the origin of the route is revealed, and it indicates a number from 0-5 indicating the kind of hotel that a particular consumer base wants to stay in. Then, all of the hotels along the route that correspond to that number score points in some way (probably related also to the number as well).

The idea would be that you would secretly at the start lay down 6 coins on the ends of the rows, and your opponent would lay down 6 coins on the columns, then you try to steer the routes in such a way that you can score a lot of your "5" hotels on the route that terminates at a "5" coin (and you try to figure out where the opponent's "5" coin is as well).

Not sure how well I've explained this. It would make the game pretty different, but I think it would add a little theme and would be a straightforward extension of the mechanics you already have; you could play the game with pretty much the same rules, though the tiles might need to be modified a bit.

Beyond this, it's hard for me to comment further without seeing some sample tiles or a sample board setup. No pressure to provide that, but if you have a screenshot all ready to go, it would help a lot.

Overall, I think you have some cute ideas and the game will probably work just fine. Not sure if it needs a theme or not; it might appeal to abstract players just as it is.

Best of luck with the design!

-Jeff

phpbbadmin
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Neat game

Very clean.... I have to say that I'm a sucker for theme too and I generally wince whenever someone requests an abstract game be played... I chalk that up partially to my ADD, and partially because I'm left brained. The first things that sprung to mind was a game about viruses attacking a computer or 'real' viruses attacking some sort of biological system.

When scoring 'threes', have you considered a cribbage like mechanic where a player could claim the score of his opponent on any 'threes' that they missed? Without actually seeing a completed board I can't really tell how easy it might be to miss 'threes' that you scored, but it seems like it might be a possibility. It might add a neat twist if you could steal missed 'threes'.

Nice game!
-Darke

jwarrend
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Posted on behalf of Zomulgaster

Posted on behalf of Zomulguster:

fanaka66 wrote:
It seems that if a theme fits nicely in to your game, great!, but if you have to force one, then don't bother.

Agreed, but I'm still hoping someone will stumble upon something that works. It just feels like it belongs closer on the shelf to Schotten Totten than Abalone, and it's not getting there as it is.
Quote:
In setup, the player that places the scoring coins, do they pick the 12 coins randomly and then place them how they like, or do they select and place them both by choice?

The latter, though in practice random distributions are likely as this is primarily a means of adding variety to the board layout.
Quote:
In play, how does this work? Are there good strategies and bad stragies to their placement, or is it more dependent on who plays better with the resulting setup? And how is it determined who will place these coins?

There's very little strategy to the setup itself...though it will substantially shift the usefulness of specific strategies in actual play. So yes, it's a means of skewing the board towards a player's preferred play style, as a 'consolation prize' for not getting the token. Let's say the winner of the previous game sets up the coins for the next...as good a rule as any, and assigns the real advantage to the player who's just lost.
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The token changes hands each time, right? Unless I missed it in the rules, it looks like it only changes hands when the players select tiles with the same numerical value.

No...though that would be one way of reducing/eliminating the advantage. It's supposed to be a painful decision...do I think using this power now is more valuable to me than the same power will be to my opponent later?
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Why do you score the rows when they get filled? Doesn't this disrupt play a bit? Can't it all wait until the end for scoring?

Playtesting felt like it was actually going more smoothly without the several-minute pause at the end trying to figure out who won. It obviously works either way, if your preferences run otherwise, but I'm not sure this deserves specific mention in the rulebook.
Quote:
I think I need to see some examples for scoring the triplets. (Actually, re-reading the rules just now, I think I got it, but visuals examples would still help).

I'll try to get something nicer up tonight, but for now, assuming all the tiles in the row are the same color...

++X+ 0
+++ 3
++* 3
++*+ 6

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I didn't realize that Pirelli is a work in progress.

Well, that's a good sign...
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I tried it on BM.com a couple of times (and had little clue what was going on).

Or not...^_^b
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Any chance they will host an updated version? I would definitely give it another try, now that I really took the time to learn the rules.

It's possible, but I hope to actually get this on store shelves (it's much better face-to-face), so the publisher might not like that idea.
_________________________________________________

Richard_Huzzey wrote:

A very interesting game, and I particularly like the mechanic of revealing piece simultaneously and deciding who places them on the basis of their values. Also, the use of the token as a tie-breaker and the dilemma of "do I give it up to place these?" is very fun.

Thanks! The real trick is stopping it from creeping into every other game I'm working on...
Quote:
The play on the board doesn't grab me as much as the rest of the game, but I still like it.
It seems a little like Kingdoms (aka Auf Heller und Pfenning) in the placement of pieces in rows and columns, with the need to look at the ramifications a piece will have in many directions.

Guilty. ^_^ As long as it isn't a LOT like AH&P, I suppose it's OK. Would shifting to a less overused board improve your perception of play, or is it the play itself which is less shiny?
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This looks like a game where that would be hard to judge without playing (I couldn't get to the "Button Men" website without registration),

Skeeve and Co. are mostly harmless...but I think the game's changed quite a bit since then regardless.
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but I wonder if I'll often know whether or not a certain play is good for me or whether it'll feel like I'm fumbling in the dark?
*theme snippy*

Interesting idea...but my key thematic sticking point is the core mechanic itself. I could give you ten themes for a majority-control game, and a few for a lowest-bidder-wins game, but why on earth does the lowest bidder place the highest bidder's tile?

Quote:
Unless it creates "theme deficit" (a Greg Schloesser term to describe the pheneomenon where a theme distracts or confuses because the mechanics are counterintuitive to the theme-- he said Bridges of Shangri-La entered that realm)

That's what I'm trying to avoid, which is why I'm having so much trouble. Everything I've tried to date brings to mind that timeless question:"So why are there five Jessica Fletchers on the island, again?"
Quote:
Thanks for showing us the game!

You're welcome. Thanks for reading and replying!
____________________________________________________________

jwarrend wrote:
As long as we can talk about the design as well as the theme, it's fine.

By all means, fire away!
Quote:
Ok, onto the game. Your rulebook is short, which is ok, but making it longer would probably make it more clear, which would be better. Fanaka already pointed out that it's confusing to use different terminology to describe the same effect. I confess, I'm having a very hard time visualizing how the game works. A sample diagram of the game state about halfway through would help tremendously.

I'll get these changes up tonight. where else do you think the actual wording needs clarification?
Quote:
It might be cool to have one player place coins at the end of each of the 6 rows and the other player to place coins at the end of each column; perhaps it works that way already.

I was thinking of doing this, but I wanted to compensate the player who wasn't getting to start with the token somehow...I can't shake the feeling that its not enough, either.
Quote:
The idea would be that you would secretly at the start lay down 6 coins on the ends of the rows, and your opponent would lay down 6 coins on the columns,

I actually did think of this myself, but made the call that the game had enough second-guessing as it was without having hidden information. The fact that someone else had the same thought definitely adds it to the Variants section, but...what if the player starting with the token had to turn up one/more of their coins for the privelege?

*theme snippy*

Again interesting (and will be seriously considered)...I like the idea of connection-based scoring in combinatrion with the theme..."Hotel Chains", anyone? Still, as I said above, it doesn't make the core mechanic seem intuitive (to my mind, anyway)...

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Best of luck with the design!

Thanks!
______________________________________________
Darkehorse wrote:
The first things that sprung to mind was a game about viruses attacking a computer or 'real' viruses attacking some sort of biological system.

Hmmm...the more code (genetic or otherwise) devoted to mobility (of oneself and enemies), the less to production? An interesting thought...
Quote:
When scoring 'threes', have you considered a cribbage like mechanic where a player could claim the score of his opponent on any 'threes' that they missed? Without actually seeing a completed board I can't really tell how easy it might be to miss 'threes' that you scored, but it seems like it might be a possibility. It might add a neat twist if you could steal missed 'threes'.

An interesting thought, but my extensive graphic design training aside (ba-dum-ching) I really hope that they aren't that hard to see...besides, that brings up traumatic childhood memories of forgetting to call out 'UNO!'. ^_^b
Quote:
Nice game!

Thanks!

Scurra
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Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

How very entertaining to see an abstract tile-laying game using a 6x6 grid that has essentially nothing in common with mine :-)

A lot of my comments have already been made, but I'll state some of them again anyway:

My first reaction was similar to Richard's: it reminded me of Kingdoms but adjusted for a two-player dynamic.
It seems evident to me that the two players should be competing for the rows and columns, with the scoring taking place at the end of the game rather than incrementally throughout, but this probably makes it even more like Kingdoms, which would be a bad thing.
I like the triplets concept: it feels as though this should be extendable to longer chains, but this would probably lead to a much more complex scoring system which may be a bad idea.
As Jeff says, it's tough to visualise a game like this in action (that's why I did diagrams with mine!) but these sort of games aren't my strong point either; heaven knows where Fire and Ice came from since I usually avoid these sort of games like the plague!

And finally, the theme question. I think it's less pressing with this game than it was with Fire & Ice, but only because Fire & Ice did have some sort of underlying concept - two incompatible elements - that had scope for building upon without changing the game.
BANTB otoh doesn't have anything yet. This makes it easy to build upon, but also makes the options rather wide. I rather liked Jeff's Hotel Chain idea (hey, it's just as implausible in Acquire!)

Anonymous
Re: Posted on behalf of Zomulgaster

jwarrend wrote:
Posted on behalf of Zomulguster:
Guilty. ^_^ As long as it isn't a LOT like AH&P, I suppose it's OK. Would shifting to a less overused board improve your perception of play, or is it the play itself which is less shiny?

Hm-- I guess that the idea of simply placing tiles seems AH&P-ish, but I just got the feeling that the thing that made me think "this is a clever game" was the stage of play where we simultaneously reveal our tiles, and the token (which I shall henceforth call the Skull N' Crossbones, as I still feel my pirate theme fits this game! ;-) might come into play.

Quote:
*theme snippy*

Interesting idea...but my key thematic sticking point is the core mechanic itself. I could give you ten themes for a majority-control game, and a few for a lowest-bidder-wins game, but why on earth does the lowest bidder place the highest bidder's tile?

Because the smaller group of pirates are faster, and so got to the good spot first, confounding their tardier but sturdier colleagues into taking up a less promising patrolling position.

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Quote:
Unless it creates "theme deficit" (a Greg Schloesser term to describe the pheneomenon where a theme distracts or confuses because the mechanics are counterintuitive to the theme-- he said Bridges of Shangri-La entered that realm)

That's what I'm trying to avoid, which is why I'm having so much trouble. Everything I've tried to date brings to mind that timeless question:"So why are there five Jessica Fletchers on the island, again?"

Agreed! I'd not heard of the MSW example, but it's a good one!

Thanks again, and don't give up on the scurvy dawgs yet... ;-)

Richard.

GeminiWeb
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Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

Hi,

Thanks for a look at the game.

Firstly, a couple of observations.

Tile numbers

Each player obviously (?) only needs 18 tiles each to fill their half of a 6x6 grid. Thus the remaining 6 tiles for each player allow a bit of variability in distribution between the players.

positives - allows for flexibility, particularly if you feel that you are falling behind and need to bring out some more points

negatives - less concern required for 'hand management'. Only having 18 tiles each would probably make the decisions of when to place which tiles 'tougher'.

Set-up

Next, the set-up rules state:

Quote:
One player selects 12 of the 20 large coins, placing them to their liking ...

What is 'to their liking'? Does this allow for face-up/face-down as preferred? Does this allow for mutliple coins in some rows and columns (and therefore no coins in others)? I am assumig you mean face-up with exactly one coin for each row and column.

Quote:
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It might be cool to have one player place coins at the end of each of the 6 rows and the other player to place coins at the end of each column; perhaps it works that way already.

I was thinking of doing this, but I wanted to compensate the player who wasn't getting to start with the token somehow...I can't shake the feeling that its not enough, either.

I like the idea of one person doing the rows and another doing the columns ... could even be done face-down and revealed simultaneously.

As for handling the advantage for the person starting with the token, perhaps consider letting the person without the token place the first two pieces (both 1 point score pieces).

Scoring

I see no problem with scoring rows as they occur (perhaps adding some suspense as the leader is determined ...), but what happened to scoring the columns?

Theme

Hmmm ... game requires 'highest points in a row' and 'groups of 3' ... Groups of more are good for scoring as they create more groups of 3 ...

How about something like ... amoeba wars ... amoebas combine to become bigger amoebas ... some amoebas are stronger (higher points) and others are 'smarter' (controlling placement) ...

Alternatively, maybe something like developing a heritage-themed town ... low values represent stores and the like which get prime positions because they fit the 'look of the place' but generate smaller returns, while the higher profit stores (which don't fit in as well with the look of the town)take what they can get ... as they struggle for planning approval ...

fanaka66
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Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

Here's another theme idea:

Cubicles
by Zomulgustar

You and your opponent are both Division Managers in a large corporation. The company has fallen on some hard times and will be downsized. Both divisions have 24 employees. Your 2 divisions will be merged into one division of 36 employees; therefore only one Division Manager will be needed. The CEO will keep one of you, the DM whose employees have the better productivity and morale.

Each employee (tile) has 2 ratings: Productivity and Rank. They have an inverse relationship, so just like in real life, the more promotions you get, the less work you do. So the tile with a 5 productivity will have 0 rank, while an employee with a 5 rank has 0 productivity.

Each turn you each select one of your employees. They will be placed in one of 36 cubicles. The employee with the higher rank determines where both employees will go. Ties will be broken using the token (can't think of a good themed object yet).

When all 36 employees are placed into cubicles, then productivity is determined (higher productivity score in each row and column). Then morale is determined. The employees like to have their cubicles next to their friends, so this is where the three tile islands are scored.

Whadya think?

RookieDesign
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Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

fanaka66 wrote:
Cubicles
by Zomulgustar

Since this morning I was looking at this game thinking how can I come up with a good theme to help Zomulgustar. Your suggestion Fanaka66 is very good and suitable for this game.

I'll wait for the review of the rules tomorrow. I'm a bit confuse by the line aspect of the tile and the triplet count. I'll read the rules again tomorrow.

I have one question for Zomulgustar. You seems to indicate that having the token as the first player is a big deal. Do the player staring with the token winning more time than usual (about 80-90%) or is it about even but just a small edge for the player having the token?

I'll get back to you later on this week.

Have a good night. (For me anyway)

RookieDesign

Zomulgustar
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Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

Scurra wrote:
How very entertaining to see an abstract tile-laying game using a 6x6 grid that has essentially nothing in common with mine :-)

Told you I'd look hypocritical, didn't I? ^_^

Quote:

It seems evident to me that the two players should be competing for the rows and columns, with the scoring taking place at the end of the game rather than incrementally throughout, but this probably makes it even more like Kingdoms, which would be a bad thing.

Why does it make a difference when the lines are scored? Seriously...people have expressed some strong opinions on this before, and I'm curious as to the motivating factors.

Quote:

As Jeff says, it's tough to visualise a game like this in action (that's why I did diagrams with mine!)

Yeah, sorry about that. Between my complete lack of artistic talent, a poor sense of prioritization, and a few personal obligations I let sneak up on me, my pretty pictures might have to wait until tomorrow, too. *sigh* I'll see how far I get before the caffeine runs out.

Zomulgustar
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Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

GeminiWeb wrote:

Thanks for a look at the game.

And thank you for the same. ^_^

Tile numbers *snip*

Very deliberately chosen to work this way, for much the reason you suggest. Given that there are only 18 tiles with tripliet-scoring potential in each player's set, hand management still plays heavily into the mix, IMHO.

Set-up

Quote:
I am assumig you mean face-up with exactly one coin for each row and column.

Absolutely right. *adds to checklist of oopsies to fix*

I believe someone said something about it being bad form to actually edit the rules under consideration during the week...if someone could confirm/deny that, I'll keep the most current version online/wait until the week is over.

Quote:

As for handling the advantage for the person starting with the token, perhaps consider letting the person without the token place the first two pieces (both 1 point score pieces).

Could you please be a bit more explicit...do you mean making the first post-setup move for both sides, or placing two coins? If the former, my gut instinct is that would be too powerful, but not overwhelmingly so. If the latter, I'm not sure how that's going to help...

Quote:
but what happened to scoring the columns?

You'll have to excuse my love/hate relationship with the English language. Columns ARE rows you see....only more...verticalish. Right. To be fixed.

Zomulgustar
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Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

RookieDesign wrote:

I have one question for Zomulgustar. You seems to indicate that having the token as the first player is a big deal. Do the player staring with the token winning more time than usual (about 80-90%) or is it about even but just a small edge for the player having the token?

It'll take a lot more playtesting (or a much stronger AI) to be certain, but I'm pretty sure it's in the latter category. Assuming totally random tile play (very conservatively I hope), 17% of games would have tied tile plays less than twice, and those are really the only cases where I'd say the person starting with the token has a significant advantage...

GeminiWeb
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Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

Quote:
Quote:
As for handling the advantage for the person starting with the token, perhaps consider letting the person without the token place the first two pieces (both 1 point score pieces).

Could you please be a bit more explicit...do you mean making the first post-setup move for both sides, or placing two coins? If the former, my gut instinct is that would be too powerful, but not overwhelmingly so. If the latter, I'm not sure how that's going to help...

Sorry for the confusion, and I stress that this is just brainstorming and may not work in practice ...

- Set up board
- Player 1 places a single 'value 1' coin on the board for each player
- Player 2 gets token
- Continue as specified in rules

And while I'm brainstorming ...

- Player 1 sets up board but places coins at rows and columns face-down
- Player 2 gets token
- Coins only get turned face-up after first turn has finished

... or ...

- players blind-bid a coin at the start for ownership of the token (with both players losing their token) ... if draw, set aside that coin and redo ... and redo ... and redo ...

... or ...

- players blind-bid a RANDOMLY CHOSEN coin at the start for ownership of the token (with both players losing their token) ... if draw, set aside that coin and redo

... or just keep it the way you had it!

Zomulgustar
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Theme Roundup

(since the forum automatically takes the reader to page 2, please note I may have replied to your question somewhere in my last few posts if it isn't in here...)

Thanks a lot for all the great suggestions! While I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from tossing in more if they feel so inspired, I wanted to have some time later in the week to ask about new rules I bring in to better align with theme. So to that end, I want to start rounding down the ideas (it's very refreshing to need to!). So here's my 'pitch' for the current Top 3...any preferences?

Richard_Huzzey wrote:

Thanks again, and don't give up on the scurvy dawgs yet... ;-)

Business is booming! Ever since old Cap'n Brillobeard 'retired', every treasure-hunter worthy of the name has scouring the seven seas for fragments of his legendary map. Fragments which you conveniently happen to sell, for the right price. When they arrive at the hole you dug up last week, they'll just assume that someone else got there first. Lucky for you that nobody else came up with the same idea, or you'd never earn enough to hire a large crew to look for the treasure yourself. And to think you got that map fragment for just two gold pieces!

Bonus: neatly explains why so many of the tiles have 'X's on them.

fanaka66 wrote:
Here's another theme idea: Cubicles

Ah, peace and quiet. Nothing quite like a day down on the cube farm to take your mind off the bitter realities of the corporate world. Are we downsizing again? Good...your options should go up on the news, and you can have a chat with your broker on the links this afternoon. Surely you can arrange things so that what's left of your division gets a slice of the juicier projects when the cards are down. Speaking of which, before you do lunch with your new 'partner', you have a 10:45 with a Mr. Frisel...

Bonus: explains the grid layout of the board, and does not resemble my workplace in the slightest.

GeminiWeb wrote:

Alternatively, maybe something like developing a heritage-themed town ... low values represent stores and the like which get prime positions because they fit the 'look of the place' but generate smaller returns, while the higher profit stores (which don't fit in as well with the look of the town)take what they can get ... as they struggle for planning approval ...

As co-chair of the Burgfordshire Zoning Commission, you feel a responsibility to approach decisions like this with a certain solemnity. After all, the last thing you want is to see the historic facades of your childhood memories disappear forever behind the flat grey walls of a Sam-Mart. Still, such loathsome establishments pay their taxes, and you have a kid in school...while the corner stores look nice in person, their larger cousins look _great_ on paper. Can you strike a balance between the old and the new that leaves each with plenty of green?

Bonus: explains the grid layout of the board, can actually be taken seriously.

For any one of these, I can easily see option D from my original post working well, so I'll shift my rules question from there into a new one. How many special tiles seem the right number to you? If it weren't for tied tile values, turns would be too much alike as it is, but the flow of the game is lost just as much if every turn is different, too. And to repeat a question from above, am I 'supposed' to update the rulebook during the week to reflect adopted suggestions, or just wait it out?

Oh, and does anyone here mind ASCII art? I REALLY want to get my scoring example posted, and I'd prefer not to put on a show of my Photoshop incompetence for my coworkers over lunchbreak. ^_^b

And no, I wasn't avoiding photoshop to make the above pitches...just sorta ran out of evening somewhere in there. My bad. Won't happen again. Really. You do believe me, don't you? *sigh*

Thanks again for your time and ideas, everyone!

Zomulgustar
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Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

GeminiWeb wrote:

And while I'm brainstorming ...
- Player 1 sets up board but places coins at rows and columns face-down
- Player 2 gets token
- Coins only get turned face-up after first turn has finished

I like this one...and it gives me another idea also, which I will almost certainly use if I settle on the pirate theme, the only one of the three where the obvious choice is to leave the coins face down, Thanks for the suggestions!

fanaka66
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Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

In Pirelli, you play on a 5x5 board. One player randomly places a tile from one "deck". The other "deck" gets the token and the other player gets to pick which deck to play.

What prompted the change to 6x6? Did this not work out well?

Zomulgustar
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Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

fanaka66 wrote:
In Pirelli, you play on a 5x5 board. One player randomly places a tile from one "deck". The other "deck" gets the token and the other player gets to pick which deck to play.

What prompted the change to 6x6? Did this not work out well?

The extra tile isn't randomly chosen for the 'pie rule', btw, but there were two major problems with the original game. First, (almost?) all choices for the extra tile were more valuable than the token with strong play, which rendered the 'pie rule' worthless as a balancing agent. While a part of me would have liked to keep the 'no ties on majorities' rule from Pirelli, I can't have all the rows and columns of a rectangular grid have an odd number of squares, while having an even total number of cells (parity is a harsh mistress!) so it had to go. Probably just as well, it seems ever so sightly clunky in retrospect...

Secondly, claiming the central square was far too powerful, since the diagonals also scored majorities. If a player started with the extra tile and also managed to get the central square, their opponent was at an extreme disadvantage, and if they went all-out to prevent this, they burned cards which could have proven more useful later. In the revised game, the center is still important, but not nearly as much so, particularly if the higher-scoring coins are placed closer to the edges of the board.

Zomulgustar
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Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

Thematic Variations

Since I'm not exactly getting an overwhelming preference...^_^b I'll just try and do something quick'n'dirty for all three before everyone disappears off to GenCon without me :cry:. Feedback would be greatly appreciated. Considering the lack of demand, I hope you'll forgive my spending what time I had this evening with these rather than Photoshop. No, I don't have an avoidance complex, why do you ask?

All special tiles are discarded after a single use unless indicated otherwise.

Pirates (I'm sure there's a pun here with 'alle Karte', but my German's too rusty to find it just now)

Methinks the token is Cap'n Brillobeard's parrot, (or perhaps an eyepatch if that's not unsanitary over the long term)? The unmarked 0-token for each player is a compass rose.

Setup phase: "Burying the treasure"
Each player is given 9 coins (112222233), and each secretly places six of them face-down along one side of the board. If playing without special tiles, the player starting with the token reveals their three discards to their opponent.

If playing with special tiles, one player discards as many as they like, then divides those that remain (plus the token) into two piles, Then, their opponent selects which pile to keep as their own.

When lines are completed, the winning player immediately takes the coin and may look at it, but should not reveal the value to their opponent. If neither player wins the coin, it is discarded without either player seeing its value.

Special Tiles (when played)

Sirens (after reveal): Before your opponent places, play this tile to an empty space on the board. One of the two tiles placed this turn must replace it.

Here Be Monsters (after reveal): Before your opponent places, play this tile to an empty space on the board. If possible, your opponent may not replace it with either tile. After the other tiles are placed, this tile is discarded. (possibly a Royal Navy or ghost ship instead?)

Jolly Roger (as reveal): choose a different tile to play in pace of this one, having already seen the opponent's selection.

Clues (x3, before reveal): Flip a face-down coin face up.
(remove whichever's used for the token) Parrot, Peg-Leg, Hook, Patch

*Puns I was able to resist including but need to vent somewhere*
Shake Your Booty (swap two coins you hid)
David Edward Jones' Do-it-yourself Storage (perhaps his market booth is next door to yours?)

Downsizing (actually makes a decent name itself, if not taken.)

The token is a "#1 Boss" Mug. (?)

Setup Phase:
Each player is given 9 coins (112222233), and each secretly places six of them face-down along one side of the board. If playing without special tiles, the player starting with the token reveals the coins they placed before the first move,

If playing with special tiles, same as Pirates.

Special Tiles (when played)

Water Cooler(after reveal): As Sirens.
Evacuation Drill (after reveal): As Here be Monsters
Employee of the Month: (as reveal) as Jolly Roger

Corner Office (before reveal): Move a single tile owned by either player to one of the four corner squares. If this square is already occupied, your opponent chooses any empty space on the board to relocate it. (majorities on already-scored lines are not recalculated)

Photocopier (as reveal): If possible, replace immediately with any tile from your set matching the number showing on your opponent's tile. If this cannot be done, your opponent's tile is discarded along with the photocopier (paper jam, and yes the EotM is discarded if it's drawn here)

Zoning Out (maybe I need more help with names than I thought...^_^b)

Going with option B above: removing the unmarked tiles from each set and increasing values by 1 across the board.

Setup: As Downsizing, but there are 10 coins given, x5 each of 1s and 2s, and discards are placed facedown in the tray.

Special Tiles:

Union Protest (after reveal): as Sirens
Preservation Campaign (after reveal): as Here be Monsters

Historical Site Declared (x6, as reveal): Played to the board as a blank 0-tile instead of being discarded. The placing player takes a face-down coin from the tray and adds it to their choice of the row or column the HS is placed in without looking at it, increasing its value by this unknown amount when scored.

Anonymous
Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

Zomulgustar wrote:
Since I'm not exactly getting an overwhelming preference...^_^b I'll just try and do something quick'n'dirty for all three before everyone disappears off to GenCon without me :cry:. Feedback would be greatly appreciated. Considering the lack of demand, I hope you'll forgive my spending what time I had this evening with these rather than Photoshop. No, I don't have an avoidance complex, why do you ask?

You will be shocked, ney, stunned to hear that I think the pirates theme is the best of the three. I would particularly advocate including a cheap eye patch (of the sort found in joke shops) as the token: it can be used as a token if people want to, but will a nice twist if people choose to enter the spirit and wear it.

Best wishes,

Richard.

fanaka66
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Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

Sadly, I think the Pirate's theme is the best as written.

I prefer the Downsizing theme by itself, but the special tiles seem to work better with the Pirate Theme.

Overall, though, I think that I prefer the game without the special tiles. I think it just works better with 2 identical sets of tiles without the special ones. I think you have a good, solid design that would just be diluted with these extra rules.

I am currently playing a game of Pirelli on BM.com and am enjoying the tough decisions deciding which tiles to play and where. I think some of the special ones would be fiddly and would increase randomness. That would upset me if my superior play was neutralized by a "Photocopier" (or whatever).

If they are being added just to decrease the advantage of starting with the token, why not play 2 games to balance it out? How long does an individual game take face-to-face?

Anonymous
Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

fanaka66 wrote:
Sadly, I think the Pirate's theme is the best as written.

I prefer the Downsizing theme by itself, but the special tiles seem to work better with the Pirate Theme.

Overall, though, I think that I prefer the game without the special tiles.

I agree, actually, about the special tiles, if not the pirate theme. I prefer the game without many, if any, special tiles- perhaps one if playtesting shows it adds a lot, but I think there's plenty to consider as it is, and sleekness is a virtue, IMHO.

Best wishes,

Richard.

phpbbadmin
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reply

Posted on Behalf of Zomulgustar:

If I'm leaving out the special tiles, I've got the perfect balance mechanic for 'Karten a la carte'. (btw, someone stop me if that's a bad name before I repeat it to myself one too many times and that's its nom de facto) Before the 'treasure' is 'buried', it's divvied up. One player (the winner of the previous game, or the person who owns the older parrot, whatever) divides the coins into two piles of at least six each, and places the eyepatch with one. Then the other player chooses a pile. These are the coins from which they must select six to secretly place, and neither player has to reveal discards. Having your opponent know that you're placing '111122' while they choose from the rest of the set is I think pretty clearly a stronger minus than the eyepatch is a plus, and on the other end of the spectrum, the piles could be made almost/completely identical aside from the patch. Much more streamlined than w/ the special tiles, adds strategy to a part of the game where there was formerly little, and is even thematically consistent. Woot! Er, I mean, ARR!

Anonymous
Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

I think your game is great, and like many have said before me it needs no theme if it is an abstract game. A lot of people worry these days about whether their game "sounds" good enough and whether or not people are going to play it based on what it "sounds" like. The reality is, while that may affect some people, most people will play a game and then decide for themselves what it is like, so you don't need a story, especially for an abstract game.

I am making a game that I suppose could be considered abstract although I like to consider it a card game more than a board game. Although I believe I have a story that could go along with it, these types of games generally don't use a story and so I just wanted to get right to the point.

But enough boring stuff from me about "Story". Let me just conclude by saying I thought your game sounded interesting, but IMO I didn't think the rules were very clear (I bet everyone disagrees with me), however I do think I understand enough about the game that if someone brought a copy over to my house I could play with a good enough understanding of the rules. I hope this helps!

Aaron

fanaka66
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Re: reply

Darkehorse wrote:
Posted on Behalf of Zomulgustar:

If I'm leaving out the special tiles, I've got the perfect balance mechanic for 'Karten a la carte'. (btw, someone stop me if that's a bad name before I repeat it to myself one too many times and that's its nom de facto)

I feel dumb, but I don't even understand the name. Is it some pirate reference that I haven't heard before?

I like the idea for balancing the token. It reminds me of a puzzle where you have 2 people that want to split a pizza. Without measuring, how can you make sure you divide it fairly? The answer is to have one person cut the pizza and the other picks which half they want. It seems obvious, but most people don't come up with the solution.

Zomulgustar
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Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

snipy3 wrote:
The reality is, while that may affect some people, most people will play a game and then decide for themselves what it is like, so you don't need a story, especially for an abstract game.

Well, while I normally am not one of the 'some people' you refer to, I'm a bit concerned about losing them as an audience, and I imagine so are most companies I'd consider selling to. This particular game always felt to me like it was missing something without a theme...

Quote:
but IMO I didn't think the rules were very clear (I bet everyone disagrees with me),

I'm not so sure on that latter part, but are there any sections not already highlighted above that could use extra work in your opinion? Thanks for the feedback (and encouragement for that matter).

Zomulgustar
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Re: reply

fanaka66 wrote:

I feel dumb, but I don't even understand the name. Is it some pirate reference that I haven't heard before?

No, just a really bad pun. The words for 'map' 'card' and 'menu' never diverged in either French or German, (carte and Karte, respectively). Auf Deutsch, then, 'maps' is 'Karten'. To buy something 'a la carte' originated with the practice of ordering each component of a meal individually priced from a menu (card/carte). The French expression is now used both in English and German to mean purchasing something in small individually priced units rather than as a package deal. Thus, 'Karten a la carte' means you're selling maps as individually priced fragments, as in the theme. If course, this may be roughly equivalent to saying 'Sock Socks' to refer to a game in which you beat up hand puppets, so the opinion of a native German speaker is definitely desirable here. I'd consider Beute a la carte, but that'd translate to Booty a la carte, which could be mistaken for a Charles Manson-themed restaurant.

Does "Expense/Initiative" work better than 'Downsizing"? I'll see if i can find a better way of balancing it than the special cards, but I'm really torn. All three ideas have so much 'fit' it's more a question of how silly I want to be more than anything...and forking the build is probably not a wise use of my time. :(

Quote:

I like the idea for balancing the token. It reminds me of a puzzle where you have 2 people that want to split a pizza. Without measuring, how can you make sure you divide it fairly? The answer is to have one person cut the pizza and the other picks which half they want. It seems obvious, but most people don't come up with the solution.

I'm glad this seems intuitive. I think it's a least a good step beyond the original game's version of the pie rule...no owned tilesets changing hands at least.

Zomulgustar
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Game #41: Blue Abstract Needs Theme Badly! (Zomulgustar)

Thanks for your help everyone! I'm sure the game still will need plenty of retooling, but at least I have a rough idea what I'm aiming for. Who's next?

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