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Algorithms, usefull or not?

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pfiidude
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Joined: 01/02/2014

Hi all, I am relatively new to the site (as well as board game design) and was hoping to look to you long time enthusiasts for thoughts on this matter.

I am currently working with some peers on a dungeon crawler that focuses on the use of cards instead of dice. However, I and my colleagues have recently come to an impasse. I am a very mathematical person, and as such, I look to algorithms and equations in my design and balancing of our game. (IE, how likely are players to draw these cards or how much damage should creature X do on average) Instead, my peers find play testing and ‘going with the flow’ helps their creative process more.

My questions are which do yall use? I am assuming it’s a juggling of both. And how does one avoid the down fall of making the game stagnant when you have many of the design choices of game being founded on boring old math? ^_^

And, number two, is there some sort of helpful rhythm that is often present in the curving scale of dungeon crawlers? ( i am of course, playing as many as I can at the time) Never the less, we are having trouble having our semi-lengthy game sessions go on without large variations of success or failure on the players’ part. This is due impart, to the entirety game being randomly generated (loot/creatures/bosses) on random draws from a deck.

anonymousmagic
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Joined: 11/06/2013
I typically start with

I typically start with calculations and algorithms and refine those by playtesting. There's definitely a mix involved.

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
I find...

I work with the mechanics first... Like what kind of interaction will the player have with the game. My games are *mostly* card games (and not board games) therefore there will be cards in the game. I try to think about things that I want to include in the game (like for example am RPS-5 or Bidding, etc.) From there I usually move on to the *theme*. Figure out how my mechanics will mesh with the game's theme.

So I guess the first part is more *mathematical* (based on mechanics) and the second part is more *creative* (determining the theme and story behind the game).

So I think it's probably a mix of the two - in the overall process.

pelle
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Joined: 08/11/2008
Definitely a mix. Although I

Definitely a mix. Although I tend to be lazy and sloppy with maths and prefer mostly to just run simple computer-simulations instead (and when I do use maths, it's a good thing there are such things as R to do calculations so I don't have to remember the exact formulas).

One thing I sometimes try to do deliberately (and probably should do more) is to actively think about using my programming skills to improve my game design. Trying to go in directions that would be very difficult or impossible for non-programmers to do or that would not occur to them. I think everyone is at an advantage if working in a direction supported by other things they know. So if maths is your thing, you could probably make games work that the less math-skilled designers could never do or would never think of doing.

SugarPillStudios
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Joined: 03/25/2013
I like starting with math

I like starting with math when I can. Then I can use the force to tune things from there, or refine my calculations. Having said that, math is just one way of expressing your expectations for how parts of the game should work. As long as you treat it with the same scepticism as you do the rest of your design ideas, it can be very useful.

X3M
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Joined: 10/28/2013
I am working on only 1 board

I am working on only 1 board game (wargame). And it is taking years because I simply don't have much time in my private time. However, my work allows openings for math. And I play test whenever a friend wants to.
The amount of math that I did is abnormal, I am sure of that.
But during your math making, make sure you keep track of the play testing as well. Don't bother them with math. Let them play and you watch them play.

So a good mix where you start with math is my suggestion. But always play test along the road.

Down here I have summarized my math/play test history. And the results. A TLDR post, I understand if you skip it. Anyway, it looks like how the long history of minecraft has come to live. Every little addition got calculated and play tested.

---------
The very beginning:
I started with 1 game rule formula.
Calculated, and personally play tested.
Recorded the results.
Transformed these results in a playtest-formula and expanded to all possibilities.

Added a second game rule formula.
And repeated the process.
With each addition I also monitored the combination effects of each game rule.

Overall, I changed 50% of the game rules after finding results I didn't want.
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During all this calculating. It is very important that other players take a look as well at your game.
They have to:
- Like the game (the rules).
- Understand the game (each rule).
- And being able to make strategies themselves (kinda bending the rules if they find a way :) ).

When you monitor this, you will notice that each player has his/her own playing style and decisions:
- Safe or Risky. (I still hate/love my cousin for doing that rush in the third game, but it was the best help ever)
- Smart or Dumb. (Being smart should not show the results right away, being dumb should not show the results right away either. Or the game ends to soon)
- Slow or Fast. (A combination of the previous options, but they could go both ways too).
- Honourable/Nice/Negotiable or Mean(in a fair way). (Allowing mean things can add a lot of fun, especially if the results are humorous for all players.)

You can put those results in table's as well. All I know is that since I "finally" did that. I had to change 1 of the first game rules. Witch meant a 50% change and again exporting all data into results and into data again. A chain reaction, sort of speak.
----------
Play-tester input:
Players can ask questions on which you never had thought.

- After training, you get certainty that you unit can kill others with 100% chance. Is there a way to have a chance on throwing 0 for every weapon?
So I have started finding another suitable damage dice table plus XP gain on this damage dice table. The original table also might be useful if the XP gain is altered. This in combination with that I still have not adjusted yet to the health reduction of 6 to 3. Each XP now increased with 2 levels instead of 1.

- After training a lot, your unit does overkill! Why even train it?
So now I can add more FAQs to my FAQs as guidance.
+Take along another unit in the same region, protect it during the battle and give the XP to that unit once you have made a kill.
+You can divide XP as well, making one unit a stronger meat unit while another one gains damage XP instead. This is especially helpful if one unit has the right armor and the other one has the right damage.
+You can have units keeping watch in the same region. Only to have their Range increased afterwards and have them join the fight the next round. However, this can be very expensive but rewarding if done right.

I also had the question of one of the players. Will there be upgrades? Or is using XP the only way?
So I started on making upgrade formula's. The costs need to be balanced (I want them to be, just like you) but there also needs to be diversity. This is pure math. But also pure giving in to the players.

Despot9
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Joined: 07/26/2008
Math will get you close but

Math will get you close but if it feels wrong it is wrong no matter what the math says. So I start with math, finish with whatever feels right in testing.

When it comes to adjusting numbers I use a double and half method. So, for example if I think a piece is moving to slow, I double its movement speed. If that is now to fast I find the mid-point between the original speed and the new speed. If its still to fast, I find a new mid point between my highest known to slow speed and my lowest known to fast. You can use this kind of logic for a lot of stuff to get to a good feeling balance numbers wise.

pfiidude
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Joined: 01/02/2014
Well, it apears a lot of

Well, it apears a lot of people tackle these issues rather early on in design process. Do you think an alogrithm section may be apropriate to this site then? to discuss how to find probability of card draws, or what algorithms helped designers make this or that mechanic sucessful?

Or would this not be something people would want to share, as it is the juicy inards and entrails that make their games live and breathe?

X3M
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Joined: 10/28/2013
pfiidude wrote:Well, it

pfiidude wrote:
Well, it apears a lot of people tackle these issues rather early on in design process. Do you think an alogrithm section may be apropriate to this site then? to discuss how to find probability of card draws, or what algorithms helped designers make this or that mechanic sucessful?

Or would this not be something people would want to share, as it is the juicy inards and entrails that make their games live and breathe?

Perhaps they want to share and discuss "obvious" "math" parts of their game.
Or place a card distribution suggestion.
The distribution of happenings of a dice roll would also fall under this category.
But mostly when a designer has a math problem, they need help of others. Like setting up formula's and such.

But the math problem could fall under design theory or mechanics. So I don't know if a new section is really needed.

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