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Archipelago Grand Winner

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DifferentName
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Joined: 09/08/2013

The other day I played archipelago for the first time, and it has a concept that felt odd. Archipelago is a semi-cooperative game that the group can win or lose, but the player with the highest score is called the "Grand Winner". You have to cooperate with the other players so everyone doesn't lose, but contributing to the group goals can be so costly that doing so will prevent you from being the grand winner.

If you choose to fully cooperate, sacrificing your score, the rule book calls you a "winner", but the other player beat you. The player that beat you gets all the bragging rights to put your group win in quotation marks. I read that players will often choose to lose with the group, so no player beats them, rather than giving the win to another player.

I like cooperative games, and I like competitive games, but this game has a very strange mix between the two that doesn't seem to fit together very well. What do you think of this concept of winners and a grand winner? Would you sacrifice your chance at being the grand winner to stop the whole table from losing?

Dralius
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It’s what I call a forced

It’s what I call a forced co-op. I’m working on one right now.

It’s a worker placement game called Final Frontier. Players are on a colony ship and take turns being captain. The other players work as crew. During the voyage players have to work together to overcome all sorts obstacles; stellar phenomenon, aliens, ships repairs, etc… which can get out of hand and destroy the ship.

The players who act a crew get point based on what problems they help solve were the captain earns point every time a problem is solved.

There are two levels of winning.

1. Getting to the colony alive.

2. Being voted colony president, that is whomever has earned the most points.

I have not played Archipelago so I can’t compare them. My game has a lot of humor and is not intended to be a hard core gamer game and I have yet to see anyone intentional throw the game because they done think be voted president. This may be because scores are hidden.

DifferentName
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Joined: 09/08/2013
Yeah

Yeah, Archipelago has some hidden aspects to the score. I only played once, but had trouble even getting our colony started because we didn't want to give the lead to each other.

Your game gives points for contributing to the group goal, which I like. There's a card in Archipelago that does this (which you can choose at the start of the game, or get randomly out of 10 or so score cards), but mostly you score by hoarding things instead of contributing to the group. It's like you always have to choose between helping the group or helping yourself. I still feel odd having two levels of winning, but at least in yours it sounds like the two goals aren't at odds with each other.

I'm thinking the other semi-co-op game I've played recently may have affected the way we played Archipelago. In Dead of Winter, there aren't multiple ranks of winning or losing. You either win or lose, and it doesn't matter if the other players win with you or not (although it feels pretty awesome when we all win together). You have a group goal that's difficult and requires teamwork, and a personal goal that's somewhat simple, but it's a challenge to do both. You have to meet both goals to win, so if the game is about to end and you haven't met your personal goal, the game encourages you to sabotage the group goal if that's what it takes to win.

In Dead of Winter, even if you are only focused on your own victory, getting victory means working with the other players. In Archipelago, it almost seems like you're not supposed to try being the grand winner, because if everyone focuses on that, then everyone loses.

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
Similar concept

I too have a Co-operative/Co-opetive game where all players must cooperate to fend of the Nazis (Second World War theme - WWII) while each player is secretly trying to uncover the Nazis secret V-Bomb plans.

So you don't know who will win - but all players can lose the game if the players don't collaborate to stop them from taking full control of Europe.

The actual winner is the one who figures out the secret V-Bomb plans... But you can never figure out WHO will be the winner even though in some ways the winner is *pre-destined* however there is no way of knowing.

It depends largely on the cards played...

Dagar
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Joined: 01/23/2015
I own archipelago and have

I own archipelago and have played quite a bit of rounds. In pour group, there is no winner if we lose to the game, but there is the one winner if we manage to beat the game. Archipelago is not a game for all groups, I think. The key to having fun with it is communication. You take what you can get as long as the revolt (which is the 'all lose' mechanic in the game) is not imminent. If it is, you have to prevent more unhappy folk to accumulate, so you have to prevent all the possible crisis together. You usually know who has produced which good and who has many exploration tokens left. If a crisis is not solved by the amount in the markets (the common stock, if you will), the one who has most of the needed good should usually resolve the crisis. You see, you can negotiate about anything in Archipelago. So if you are the one who is selected or even the only one to prevent the crisis, you will first see to it that your own workers are happy. Then you will want to sell your resources to the other players still in need ('You want me to make your remaining two workers happy? Hmm, what about a little financial aid? Let's say, two florins?') If revolt is imminent and no one but a single or two players have to manage the crisis over more than one round, then you should probably just let it go and lose together.

What Archipelago tries to portray is a world in which a few rich and powerful guys (the players) take control over an unexpecting world and suck it dry as much as they can. But if the exploited people are at the brink of a revolt and are about to lit the torches, you rich guys ought to maybe cooperate a bit, before the people storm your mansions and make your heads roll.

This is the way I understand the game and this is the way I think Boelinger wants it to be understood. What kind of winner is this, whose treasuries are fullest, if he is impaled like the rest of his slightly poorer fellows?

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