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Are charts bad?

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sigtaulefty
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The game design I'm working on has it's roots in wargaming - where gamers don't look down on charts. It's a baseball themed game, but not a 9 inning sim.

Throughout our testing, one of the more prevalent comments has been - why so many charts? When we discussed our reasoning, we never really got any more feedback on how to possibly change away from charts. It's like feedback that "we wouldn't do it this way, but we can't/won't tell you how we would've done it".

As I look through this design, there are 7 small charts that are referenced throughout parts of the game - but not all of them are required all of the time - but throughout the game, we've found them to be the easiest way to "get things done"

I'll attach the charts we've been using for reference. The "things" on the various charts are:

1. Payout chart. This is for ... obviously, getting paid -- we wanted this to be variable because different baseball teams draw different numbers of fans. We wanted to simulate that. Otherwise, it's like passing go and everyone gets $200.

2. A team rating chart. We have varying teams with good players/ok players/bad players. In real life, a team of bad players will not win as often - so before each phase a team will win or lose games based on roster size. A chart felt the easiest way to simulate this.

3. Trades and Trade Impact -- the game is designed for the players to trade with each other if they want ... but also with another team that isn't being played by a human player. (this helps in a solo game too). Players can trade off of this chart. When they do, they have a chance to see if this move pays off in wins or losses.

4. The Farm System is meant to act as a way for teams to build up their rosters. There are players in the minors that turn out to be great, and some turn out to be busts. A die roll and chart was the easiest way for us to simulate this.

5. Retirements or Free Agency - another reason the farm system is important. Players retire or leave via free agency. This chart allows us to simulate that.

6. The Championship chart is used very little in the game, but it's vital to the overall theme of the game. If a team makes the world series, they want to know if they've won or lost - and based on a die roll they can win big or lose big.

7. Finally, the luxury tax is our catch up mechanism. As in real life where the rich teams pay into a pool, the VP leaders pay into the pool for the VP poor.

Is there another way we can simulate what we're trying to do?

devaloki
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Personally, I don't think

Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with charts, though you may get hated on by casual players for it.
One of my favourite games Dawn of the Zeds uses charts for combat and it works great.
Perhaps just not have so many charts

northgun
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One game my family has loved

One game my family has loved for quite some time is The Farming Game. This game utilizes charts quite a bit. Never once did I think they were a hindrance. As long as the charts are easy to read, easy to use, and are well explained/useful, they will add to the gaming experience

The Tin Man
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Smart placement?

Depending on what your other components are like, you might be able to mitigate players' experience of "so many charts." If you can place each chart where players are already looking when they need to reference it, they won't have to switch their attention and won't think about "checking a chart."

You may already be all over that reasoning or it may simply not work for what you're doing, but it might be helpful.

X3M
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The charts that you have

The charts that you have posted are easy to read and small (if not, this is the smallest possible, a left and right).
It reminds me a bit of Monopoly. Where each street is a chart on itself. Telling how much you get with the number of houses.
Eventually, players will remember the charts. And only look on a chart if needed.
Your charts are good.
If you find a way, get them all on the same piece of paper instead.
Players do intend to hate to be searching in a manual.

sigtaulefty
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They do remind me a little of

They do remind me a little of the monopoly cards -- which was one option I was thinking about. But since it's already a card driven game (players have as many as 17 cards in hand at the start of each phase) I didn't think more cards was the answer.

The other thing that came to mind was a customized die - but since there are added DRM bonuses that can be applied, custom dice become less of an option (besides the added expense).

I'm glad to hear these charts aren't "too much" - but it's still a critique I expect to keep hearing.

ruy343
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You know...

To be honest, I think that you could skip three of the charts in your game (although, I admit, I haven't played your game before). However, if I understand right, this game is about the whole baseball season, not about an individual game. If that's the case, hear me out and see if you could reduce the burden a little bit:

Charts 2 and 3 are intertwined, and could probably use a rules simplification. Perhaps a team's "rating" could be a sum of the players' skill totals (perhaps separated into "batting" and "defense", but more on that later), and a matchup against another team is a comparison of skill values (subtracting anything that may be related to fatigue, player injuries, etc.), and then turning it over to probability with a dice roll. Sometimes the big teams lose to the little teams for no apparent reason, and straight-up probability wouldn't be too bad to simulate that. The total of your players' offensive skill plus the dice roll minus the defensive value of their team could indicate the total number of points scored for that team, so you roll for both to decide each game. If they tie, we call it overtime, and they re-roll (perhaps increasing the stakes by generating more fans or something, just to keep things interesting).

Table 3 seems to be an interesting way to show different values that relate to player "value", and although simplifying it down to 4 classifications of players might make it simpler, I think that associating each class of players with some arbitrary value might make it difficult on someone new to the game. As such, I suggest creating a set of stats for each player, like cost, batting, and defense, and having the cost numbers relate to a monetary worth wherewith an owner could use players like currency in trades. This simplifies the system a bit when it comes to trades. A player's value is a composite number of all of their stats, plus whatever special abilities they may have, meaning that a smart manager will have to weight costs and benefits to determine what is and what isn't a smart trade. Abilities could include causing injuries to a target player, bonuses/penalties in overtime, team-based bonuses/penalties, abilities triggered by getting stomped by another team, etc.

Player retirement can also be relatively easy to incorporate if you create a player stats system like I talked about in table 3. Player age can play an important role after each "season" of X games, wherein the owner might roll a dice for "at-risk" players to determine whether they retire or not. If they choose to retire, you can trade them off at half their value, but that's the cost of having gone after an older, lower-value player in order to get their "experienced" stats: you could lose your investment.

Also, I was thinking that trade impact seemed a bit harsh, but it provides a way for trading to not be overpowered. Perhaps instead, however, because a team is uncoordinated or unpracticed (at least together), the roll could show an impact as a penalty to point generation in games, essentially meaning that it could take a while for your trade to provide the benefit that you were hoping for.

Anyways, those were my thoughts on how I would organize the game a little differently to avoid three of those charts. Hope it helped :)

sigtaulefty
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ruy343 wrote:Charts 2 and 3

ruy343 wrote:

Charts 2 and 3 are intertwined, and could probably use a rules simplification. Perhaps a team's "rating" could be a sum of the players' skill totals (perhaps separated into "batting" and "defense", but more on that later), and a matchup against another team is a comparison of skill values (subtracting anything that may be related to fatigue, player injuries, etc.), and then turning it over to probability with a dice roll. Sometimes the big teams lose to the little teams for no apparent reason, and straight-up probability wouldn't be too bad to simulate that. The total of your players' offensive skill plus the dice roll minus the defensive value of their team could indicate the total number of points scored for that team, so you roll for both to decide each game. If they tie, we call it overtime, and they re-roll (perhaps increasing the stakes by generating more fans or something, just to keep things interesting).

I like the thought here, but I wonder if that opens things up to more complication than what we have. The games that are being played are through cards - think about Twilight Struggle. You've got cards with OP values and Events. You can play OPS for wins at certain times and there are events that give you wins/losses etc.

What you've described sounds like it would work really well in a Basketball sim that I've been thinking about though.

ruy343 wrote:

Table 3 seems to be an interesting way to show different values that relate to player "value", and although simplifying it down to 4 classifications of players might make it simpler, I think that associating each class of players with some arbitrary value might make it difficult on someone new to the game. As such, I suggest creating a set of stats for each player, like cost, batting, and defense, and having the cost numbers relate to a monetary worth wherewith an owner could use players like currency in trades. This simplifies the system a bit when it comes to trades. A player's value is a composite number of all of their stats, plus whatever special abilities they may have, meaning that a smart manager will have to weight costs and benefits to determine what is and what isn't a smart trade. Abilities could include causing injuries to a target player, bonuses/penalties in overtime, team-based bonuses/penalties, abilities triggered by getting stomped by another team, etc.

The hierarchy of players in the major league system is: Superstars > All Stars > Regulars > Journeymen. This is just an abstract and I think adding any additional stats into it make it a lot more simulated (which would be awesome) but also more complex.

The hierarchy of players in the farm system is: Phenoms > Prospects > utility players.

I think it was Jimmie Johnson in the NFL draft who came up with a draft calculator that basically outlined what a good trade was. With this game though, beauty (and sometimes need) is in the eye of the beholder. Like in any trading game - If someone wants to trade me 4 stone and 4 sheep for my one wheat card, who am I to say no?

ruy343 wrote:

Player retirement can also be relatively easy to incorporate if you create a player stats system like I talked about in table 3. Player age can play an important role after each "season" of X games, wherein the owner might roll a dice for "at-risk" players to determine whether they retire or not. If they choose to retire, you can trade them off at half their value, but that's the cost of having gone after an older, lower-value player in order to get their "experienced" stats: you could lose your investment.

We did want to incorporate player age into the equation, but since the basic game is only 3 seasons long - coming up with a thematic reason for retirements was tough. Hence, the free agency option. I compare this part of the game to "feeding your people ... or they leave".

ruy343 wrote:

Also, I was thinking that trade impact seemed a bit harsh, but it provides a way for trading to not be overpowered. Perhaps instead, however, because a team is uncoordinated or unpracticed (at least together), the roll could show an impact as a penalty to point generation in games, essentially meaning that it could take a while for your trade to provide the benefit that you were hoping for.

There are die roll modifiers based on different things -- your Front Office ability being the main one. If you have the top office, you've got a +3 DRM. That basically means you have a minimum roll of 4, which is winning games.

ruy343 wrote:

Anyways, those were my thoughts on how I would organize the game a little differently to avoid three of those charts. Hope it helped :)

I appreciate your thoughts - I wish I could sit down with you and show you what I've been working with. I think your ideas are really cool, but I think they're also a little more complex than what we're working with.

sigtaulefty
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The Tin Man wrote:Depending

The Tin Man wrote:
Depending on what your other components are like, you might be able to mitigate players' experience of "so many charts." If you can place each chart where players are already looking when they need to reference it, they won't have to switch their attention and won't think about "checking a chart."

You may already be all over that reasoning or it may simply not work for what you're doing, but it might be helpful.

And here is the quandary -- I hear "put them on the main board for everyone to see at once" but you have the poor saps who are playing with the board upside down ... or sometimes you're not near the board. Because of this, I had a few of them as part of the player mats ... but that turned an 8x10 player mat into an 8x16 player mat. I'm fine with that size, as long as the cost doesn't skyrocket because of it.

devaloki
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sigtaulefty wrote:The Tin Man

sigtaulefty wrote:
The Tin Man wrote:
Depending on what your other components are like, you might be able to mitigate players' experience of "so many charts." If you can place each chart where players are already looking when they need to reference it, they won't have to switch their attention and won't think about "checking a chart."

You may already be all over that reasoning or it may simply not work for what you're doing, but it might be helpful.

And here is the quandary -- I hear "put them on the main board for everyone to see at once" but you have the poor saps who are playing with the board upside down ... or sometimes you're not near the board. Because of this, I had a few of them as part of the player mats ... but that turned an 8x10 player mat into an 8x16 player mat. I'm fine with that size, as long as the cost doesn't skyrocket because of it.

Just put the charts on a rules reference sheet that the players can keep next to the board, it's that simple and it works

McTeddy
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Realistically, having a

Realistically, having a single double sided reference sheet that you can share is probably your best option that won't require changes.
- - -

One thing to keep in mind though... charts increase complexity, reduce the speed of play and aren't natural to MOST boardgamers. Wargamers wouldn't think twice before using a chart... but board gamers just might.

This may be acceptable situation depending on your goals but you may want to consider simplifying the game a bit. If you are going to spend money to get this manufactured, it can be risky to alienate the casuals.

pelle
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Tables on reference sheets

Tables on reference sheets are great. I think even better is when you can put numbers right on the tokens they apply to, but there is always a limited space there, so charts are often needed.

The alternative to charts is usually (except for removing that mechanic from the game) that you need to look something up somewhere in the rulebook. Usually that ends with some buckets of dice to roll, or complex rules to memorize. I always prefer a chart. Even when the layout of the chart can be reduced to something "simpler" (like "roll 2d6, add skill level, subtract range, you hit on 9+") the chart will be much easier and faster to use and requires no learning or memorization. Reduces on the amount of time spent looking up rules, because usually by just looking at a chart it will tell you what to do and what values are needed. A good reference sheet will tell you everything you need for the game really.

larienna
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If a chart is used once per

If a chart is used once per game, then it's not that bad. If a chart is used every game round, it could be more problematic.

Normally you want to use a chart if you have a really unusual number distribution. But if it could be calculated by a simple math formula, then the chart becomes only a player aid.

A bit like 5tOck t!ck3r (sorry for the leet speak), everything can be calculated using math, but if you cannot do it the chart is there to help.

I consider charts to be unelegant in general, this is a reason I would minimise it's use. I know bloodbowl used a lot of chart but many of them were once per game, or even after match chart. So they were not annoying to use in that situation.

sigtaulefty
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larienna wrote:If a chart is

larienna wrote:
If a chart is used once per game, then it's not that bad. If a chart is used every game round, it could be more problematic.

Normally you want to use a chart if you have a really unusual number distribution. But if it could be calculated by a simple math formula, then the chart becomes only a player aid.

There is one chart that is used once per game as a set up aid.

The charts I attached above are used multiple times throughout the game - based on player decisions. Some of them (like payout and retirement) are used by all player at some point regardless of decision. Others, (like trade chart, farm system charts) are player choices.

I think we've simplified the number distribution to the point where you calculate a DRM (which is as simple as knowing your rating level -- which is given to you) and rolling a D10.

sigtaulefty
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pelle wrote:Tables on

pelle wrote:
Tables on reference sheets are great. I think even better is when you can put numbers right on the tokens they apply to, but there is always a limited space there, so charts are often needed.

The alternative to charts is usually (except for removing that mechanic from the game) that you need to look something up somewhere in the rulebook. Usually that ends with some buckets of dice to roll, or complex rules to memorize. I always prefer a chart. Even when the layout of the chart can be reduced to something "simpler" (like "roll 2d6, add skill level, subtract range, you hit on 9+") the chart will be much easier and faster to use and requires no learning or memorization. Reduces on the amount of time spent looking up rules, because usually by just looking at a chart it will tell you what to do and what values are needed. A good reference sheet will tell you everything you need for the game really.

I've played and tested the game so much I have most of the charts memorized ... at least the target numbers. There were other charts that were eliminated. The ones we are left with are the core charts that are really needed.

Zag24
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Trade limit?

Is there a limit on the number of trades? And is there an extra cost to doing them? If both your answers are no, then I can generate money for free. :-)

I trade 4 prospects for 2 regulars, then I trade the regulars, one for 3 prospects and one for 1 prospect and $1000. So in essence I traded 4 prospects for 4 prospects and $1000.

BTW, I like charts.

sigtaulefty
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Zag24 wrote:Is there a limit

Zag24 wrote:
Is there a limit on the number of trades? And is there an extra cost to doing them? If both your answers are no, then I can generate money for free. :-)

I trade 4 prospects for 2 regulars, then I trade the regulars, one for 3 prospects and one for 1 prospect and $1000. So in essence I traded 4 prospects for 4 prospects and $1000.

BTW, I like charts.

There is a limit on trades. Trading with the chart is a "one-time-per-phase" action. There is 1 off season phase and 3 in season phases during a year.

larienna
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Another alternative to trade

Another alternative to trade liit that I used in my age of mythology variant is that you cannot buy something you have sold with the same trade action.

In the game you had 4 resources so either you trade:

1 resources type to get all other 3 types
2 resources type to get the other 2 types
or 3 ressource type to acquire 1 type fo resource.

So even if the trade were at 1 for 2, there was no possible way to make a trade loop where you would make profit.

sigtaulefty
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larienna wrote:Another

larienna wrote:
Another alternative to trade liit that I used in my age of mythology variant is that you cannot buy something you have sold with the same trade action.

In the game you had 4 resources so either you trade:

1 resources type to get all other 3 types
2 resources type to get the other 2 types
or 3 ressource type to acquire 1 type fo resource.

So even if the trade were at 1 for 2, there was no possible way to make a trade loop where you would make profit.

Since it's a phase thing, it would be a tough thing to track from phase to phase. It may just be better for me to re-think the combos on the trade chart.

lewpuls
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Publishers mostly say "NO"

Baseball by its very nature is grounded in statistics, so use of charts is not surprising.

But I'll tell you, publishers will say no flowcharts or tables or charts. Most people don't want to deal with them these days.

devaloki
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lewpuls wrote:Baseball by its

lewpuls wrote:
Baseball by its very nature is grounded in statistics, so use of charts is not surprising.

But I'll tell you, publishers will say no flowcharts or tables or charts. Most people don't want to deal with them these days.

Victory Point Games and other companies publish games with charts

McTeddy
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devaloki wrote:lewpuls

devaloki wrote:
lewpuls wrote:
Baseball by its very nature is grounded in statistics, so use of charts is not surprising.

But I'll tell you, publishers will say no flowcharts or tables or charts. Most people don't want to deal with them these days.

Victory Point Games and other companies publish games with charts

Keep in mind Victory Point is primarily a wargame publisher with a wargamer audience.

Charts are fairly normal to wargamers... but other audiences will be a hard sell.

devaloki
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McTeddy wrote:devaloki

McTeddy wrote:
devaloki wrote:
lewpuls wrote:
Baseball by its very nature is grounded in statistics, so use of charts is not surprising.

But I'll tell you, publishers will say no flowcharts or tables or charts. Most people don't want to deal with them these days.

Victory Point Games and other companies publish games with charts

Keep in mind Victory Point is primarily a wargame publisher with a wargamer audience.

Charts are fairly normal to wargamers... but other audiences will be a hard sell.

Does anyone know if this is true or not? What if the charts are simple? Like, say you are comparing the accuracy of your weapon to the agility of your enemy to see what you have to roll to hit like in a Warhammer type of style?

sigtaulefty
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That's the odd thing about my

That's the odd thing about my game -- it's partially a war game in it's design. Yeah it's got a baseball theme, but there is plenty of "attacking" other players built in.

sigtaulefty
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devaloki wrote:McTeddy

devaloki wrote:
McTeddy wrote:
devaloki wrote:
lewpuls wrote:
Baseball by its very nature is grounded in statistics, so use of charts is not surprising.

But I'll tell you, publishers will say no flowcharts or tables or charts. Most people don't want to deal with them these days.

Victory Point Games and other companies publish games with charts

Keep in mind Victory Point is primarily a wargame publisher with a wargamer audience.

Charts are fairly normal to wargamers... but other audiences will be a hard sell.

Does anyone know if this is true or not? What if the charts are simple? Like, say you are comparing the accuracy of your weapon to the agility of your enemy to see what you have to roll to hit like in a Warhammer type of style?

I can think of Euros with charts -- maybe not 7 of them that do different things though.

BENagy
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Cards

What will help the most, I feel, is making as many of these die rolls and chart lookups into cards. With cards, you don't have to check a chart, as all the information is included on the cards, there's less clutter from dice rolling, and you can include pictures and flavor text on them to give more immersion to the game and keep it more graphical instead of just text and numbers. This will make it feel like the complexity has gone way down, though mechanically, the game functions mostly the same.

As an example, let's look at the Payouts Chart. The same statistical distribution of your layout can be replicated with cards, so that the numbers 1-12 (and more importantly their corresponding payout) can be represented evenly. The only flaw here is your modifiers, which either add 2 or subtract 2 from the roll. The key is to look at how you've distributed the payouts. Each 2 point DRM pushes the final payout $2000-$3000 in a given direction. So, you can simply make a single rule that modifies the rules of the cards to give an extra $2000-$3000 difference. Include this on the cards.

Some of them may be a bit more difficult to balance on your end, and some (like Luxury Tax) just needs to be a chart. But this, plus including the rest of the info on player mats instead of a rule book, should help keep the game from becoming too complex, and dragging too slowly.

sigtaulefty
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BENagy wrote:What will help

BENagy wrote:
What will help the most, I feel, is making as many of these die rolls and chart lookups into cards. With cards, you don't have to check a chart, as all the information is included on the cards, there's less clutter from dice rolling, and you can include pictures and flavor text on them to give more immersion to the game and keep it more graphical instead of just text and numbers. This will make it feel like the complexity has gone way down, though mechanically, the game functions mostly the same.

As an example, let's look at the Payouts Chart. The same statistical distribution of your layout can be replicated with cards, so that the numbers 1-12 (and more importantly their corresponding payout) can be represented evenly. The only flaw here is your modifiers, which either add 2 or subtract 2 from the roll. The key is to look at how you've distributed the payouts. Each 2 point DRM pushes the final payout $2000-$3000 in a given direction. So, you can simply make a single rule that modifies the rules of the cards to give an extra $2000-$3000 difference. Include this on the cards.

Some of them may be a bit more difficult to balance on your end, and some (like Luxury Tax) just needs to be a chart. But this, plus including the rest of the info on player mats instead of a rule book, should help keep the game from becoming too complex, and dragging too slowly.

I "think" I know what you're getting at - but a question to be sure ... do you want players to draw cards from a deck to see how much they've made for a phase? I'm thinking about a game like Combat Commander that has die rolls on cards instead of actual dice. Or are you saying the chart itself should be on a card so it can be referenced in a player's hand?

If the first, I'd start to worry about the amount of cards in the game. I already have action cards, OP cards, draft cards, offseason cards, and starting team cards. :)

This game is component heavy and one piece of feedback we've gotten is "streamline things". I love when people say that, but never tell me how they'd do it. You've given me an idea at least and it's one I think I can actually make work using a combat commander system -- if I put payouts on the actual OP cards ... I can have a discard ... I actually like that idea.

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