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Are you using any design methodology?

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larienna
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It's a bit hard to explain what I really ask. It looks like how do you organise the work and the task and the design step of the game. I only insist on the design step.

Because planning the work to create a prototype or the actual real game is relatively easy and common. You just make a list of everything that must be done, determine priorities and dependencies and execute the to do list.

But for designing it seems different. My mind is currently always circling around thinking about how various aspect of the game could work without ever progressing. It's like if I was rethinking stuff I already thought.

This is probably where I came with the idea of rushing a prototype: stop planning and thinking and play as fast as you can to get feedback.

So I was wondering do you have any other ways or method to organise your work when the game is still at the design phase?

larienna
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...

One of the problem seems that it's hard do design something which links to other elements of your games which are still not well defined yet because they also link to other elements of the game which are not well defined yet, etc.

When I design my game, I place all the documents I write in a file. All the electronic documents are also in a classified file. Of course, you can see throught the old ideas of the design by checking at the old papers. But maybe it would be easier to see the progress of the game if all the elements could be separated.

For example: place everything related to combat together so that you can keep track of the evolution of the combat system.

I thought I could maybe make a log of the new ideas and evolution for each aspect of the game. This way, it will also be easier to know for example "what was the latest rules I designed regarding combat".

clearclaw
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Use a version control system

I use the Bazzaar-NG Version Control system. It is very simple. Every game has its own Bazaar-NG repository. Any and every random file that might pertain to the design is quicky added to the repository. The premise is that it is better to have too much than too little. When ever I finish a piece of work on a game I check in all the changes along with some comments on what I did. All the old versions of every file are readily available for review or recovery should I wish to backtrack.

I would not design without a version control system.

larienna
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Bazaar

bazaar seem to be a VCS for managing computer software. Ho do you that with you game?

Anyways, most of my files are actually on real paper.

Hedge-o-Matic
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I agree that getting a

I agree that getting a prototype together is sometimes the best way to break through a design barrier. All my test prototypes are virtual, nowadays, and I do solo playtesting very quickly, to get the concepts gelling.

I use a simple dating method to keep track of new work. MMDDYY appended to the file name works just fine.

EDIT:

clearclaw wrote:
I use the [Bazzaar-NG Version Control system]

I just looked up Bazaar. Dude, you are way hardcore, if that's what you're using for game design!

GamesOnTheBrain
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I use wiki software which has

I use wiki software which has "version control" built in.

clearclaw
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Uzing Bazaar NG

A game design for me consists of various elements: rules, board design (probably in SVG), various supporting files like spreadsheets, cards/tiles (probably stred in a spreadsheet or label-printing programs file-type, small software simulations or models of interesting parts of the design, note files, bitmap images used for the board or perhaps just photos of prototypes, URLs that informed the design, etc.

To give a quick sense, here's the directory of the design I'm playing with at the moment:

> $ ls -lasp
> total 1213
>   0 drwxr-sr-x  3 claw claw    306 2008-09-29 12:19 ./
>   1 drwxr-sr-x 40 claw claw    974 2008-09-26 23:00 ../
>   8 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw   7497 2008-09-26 23:22 alhambra_board.GIF
>   0 drwxr-sr-x  6 claw claw    185 2008-09-29 12:14 .bzr/
>  12 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw   9192 2008-09-26 23:05 CairoTessellation_1000.gif
> 557 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 567953 2008-09-26 23:00 hexgrid.svg
> 304 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 309495 2008-09-27 00:25 Penrose2.svg
>   8 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw   6925 2008-09-27 23:19 penrose.ps
> 316 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 321183 2008-09-26 23:52 Penrose.svg
>   4 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw   1592 2008-09-27 00:08 penrose-tiling.svg
>   4 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw   2850 2008-09-27 23:01 penroseTiling.svg

So far I've nothing but a set of penrose tiling generators written in various language, but they're all checked into the VCS as will their future versions be along with any supporting files if I evolve them towards a game. This the repository for 'Ohana Proa::

> $ ls -lasp
> total 8481
>   1 drwxr-sr-x  3 claw claw   1314 2008-09-30 11:08 ./
>   1 drwxr-sr-x 40 claw claw    974 2008-09-26 23:00 ../
>  12 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw  11896 2008-05-30 20:52 aid.lyx
> 104 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 105093 2008-05-30 20:52 AoS-Polynesia-draft1.png
> 104 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 105346 2008-05-30 20:52 AoS-Polynesia-draft2.png
> 144 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 146020 2008-05-30 20:52 AoS-Polynesia-draft3.png
> 148 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 147661 2008-05-30 20:52 AoS-Polynesia-draft4.png
> 148 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 150729 2008-05-30 20:52 AoS-Polynesia-draft5.png
> 284 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 288614 2008-05-30 20:52 AoS-Polynesia-draft6.png
> 144 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 146951 2008-05-30 20:52 AoS-Polynesia-draft7.png
> 164 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 164883 2008-05-30 20:52 AoS-Polynesia-draft8.png
>   0 drwxr-sr-x  6 claw claw    185 2008-05-30 20:52 .bzr/
>   4 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw   2267 2008-05-30 20:52 claw_2.gif
>   8 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw   4788 2008-05-30 20:52 double-hull.jpg
> 148 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 148960 2008-05-30 20:52 earthsea1.jpg
> 244 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 246510 2008-05-30 20:52 earthsea2.jpg
>  12 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw   8482 2008-05-30 20:52 intro.lyx
>   4 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw   3097 2008-05-30 20:52 kula-blue.gnumeric
>   4 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw   3087 2008-05-30 20:52 kula-red.gnumeric
> 765 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 781531 2008-05-30 20:52 map_3736x2823.jpg
>  12 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw  11869 2008-05-30 20:52 Map_OC-Polynesia.PNG
>  16 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw  13993 2008-05-30 20:52 migrate.gif
> 665 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 676225 2008-05-30 20:52 oceania_95.jpg
> 232 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 234818 2008-05-30 20:52 oceania_pol01.jpg
> 436 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 442958 2008-05-30 20:52 oceania_pol_97.jpg
> 360 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 367232 2008-05-30 20:52 oceania_ref01.jpg
> 316 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 321222 2008-05-30 20:52 oceania_ref02.jpg
> 537 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 548427 2008-05-30 20:52 oceania_ref802646_99.jpg
>  44 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw  41144 2008-05-30 20:52 Ohana.gif
> 216 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 218612 2008-05-30 20:52 OhanaProa-Polynesiabackdrop.jpg
> 937 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 957647 2008-05-30 20:52 OhanaProa-small.svg
> 921 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 940494 2008-05-30 20:52 OhanaProa.svg
> 973 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 992753 2008-05-30 20:52 pic137437.jpg
>  32 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw  30364 2008-05-30 20:52 Play-BiddingAndDeliveries.jpg
>  36 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw  35524 2008-05-30 20:52 Play-Endgame.jpg
>  32 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw  30840 2008-05-30 20:52 Play-GreenResources.jpg
> 196 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw 198163 2008-05-30 20:52 Play-map.png
>  40 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw  38047 2008-05-30 20:52 Play-StartGame.jpg
>  32 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw  29794 2008-06-02 10:05 rules.lyx
>   8 -rw-r--r--  1 claw claw   4531 2008-05-30 20:52 SCALE-MODEL-OF-HOKULEA.jpg 

There's spreadsheets simulating kula models, several versions of the map as SVGs, the rules, player aid etc etc all chucked together there. For those wanting amusement, the AoS prefix came from the game's original heritage as an Age of steam derivative.

Yes, Bazaar-NG is designed for managing software development, but there's there's nothing that ties it to that. Software is just files as well. It can manage any files and doesn't care if they are software source files or not.

As an aside, I don't make a prototype until I have the game completely simulated in software, usually using a spreadsheet. I then model and plays through scores of games using the spreadsheet before I ever approach actually making something physical.

Demonstrating part of the version control, here's a section of the history log of the rules for 'Ohana Proa: from the early days of its development lifecycle:


> revno: 35
> committer: J C Lawrence 
> branch nick: Polynesia
> timestamp: Fri 2007-09-14 23:07:35 -0700
 >message: 
>  New rules.
>   
>    - Folded Introduction and Core Concepts sections
>   
>    - Removed fee for using another player's route during a market
>    delivery. When moving over another player's route they earn for the
>    next island instead of the moving player. Fee remains for kahuna
>    movement.
>   
>    - Reworded optional step in delivery for clarity.
>   
>    - Moved kula enhancement costs to 5 units and max value kula to 7
>    units. This removes a value short circuit (It was never economical
>    to buy a max value kula outright).
>   
>    - Kula rot in two turns. This is critical for maintaining the value
>    of resources, keeping the Kula economy mildly starved and in
>    general ensuring that a given kula item is delivered an odd number
>    of times
>   
>    -- Maximum two kula tokens per kula item (one fish one shell)
>   
>    - Prestige points can be earned as follows:
>    -- 1 point for 5 markets (as before)
>    -- 1 point for giving a kula item
>    -- 1 point for delivering a market to a player's kahuna over their route
>    -- 1 point for giving a kula to a players kahuna
>    -- 1 point for creating an all new kula item
>    -- 1 point for each max-value token in a given kula item (max 2)
>   
>    (ie a single delivery and gift could earn up to 7 prestige points)
>  
>    - Changed end-game definition to one market being closed. At that
>    point the core problem of the game in terms of market sorting has
>    reached its first approximation. That seems like a fine time to end
>    the game. I'm also looking to scale the game by simply removing
>    islands from the map.
Rick-Holzgrafe
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JC, your development

JC, your development directories look a lot like mine. I use subfolders to separate source graphics and game graphics from the meat of the design. I use a wiki to keep rulesets, playtest session reports, and design discussions organized. Mine doesn't have version control built in, which I agree would be a very nice thing.

When appropriate I use spreadsheets for things like counter sets or card deck manifests. I can export a card deck from Excel into a Mac application I wrote to generate a PDF for printing the card deck.

I usually do boards in Photoshop. Illustrator would be better but it's expensive and I don't own a copy. Inkscape is good but not very Mac-friendly; it currently doesn't run on my system because I haven't re-installed X11 after my last major system upgrade. I probably won't bother until and unless I find a project for which Photoshop is inappropriate. (I'm also much more fluent in Photoshop. This is laziness talking and a poor excuse for avoid Inkscape, but I'm like that.)

I understand that not everyone is in the habit of using computers for everything written, but I couldn't live without it. I type much faster (and much more legibly!) than I write, my files are easily organized, and making modifications to existing files is a breeze. How did we live without these things?

If I had a large-format printer I'd be in heaven.

Rick-Holzgrafe
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My design cycle

larienna wrote:
But for designing it seems different. My mind is currently always circling around thinking about how various aspect of the game could work without ever progressing. It's like if I was rethinking stuff I already thought.

It occurred to me that although I talked about my tools in the last post, I didn't really talk about my design process. I start with an idea, and if I have no time to think about it at that moment, I will write up a one-paragraph summary and put it in my "Ideas" folder. If I'm still interested when I get time to think about it, I spend anywhere from an hour to a couple of days (while commuting, in the shower, etc.) fleshing it out in my mind. (All my ideas sound absolutely wonderful at this point.)

When I have a fairly complete overview held in my head, I will write it down: usually three to five pages in the form of a rulebook sketch, with many paragraphs of discussion interspersed. The discussions explain why I made the initial decisions, and explore or note alternatives.

I may continue to work on the rulebook-cum-discussion for a few days, either because I'm not satisfied with it yet, or because I haven't the opportunity to build a prototype. When I do have time and think the design warrants the effort, I will build a quick-and-dirty prototype (often a small pencil-sketched board and/or a computer-simulated card deck), and use it to solo-simulate a multi-player game.

Often my designs come to a sudden and disastrous end, right here. Just because they seem wonderful in my head is no guarantee that they'll actually play well! But if they survive the initial playtest, then I enter a cycle of solo-playtesting. After each playtest, I write up notes on what did and didn't work, and try to brainstorm solutions for the problems. The design may vary wildly during this process, even to the point of throwing out whatever core idea initially motivated the design.

If all goes well (again, usually it doesn't), eventually the design reaches the point where I think it justifies more effort. I will build a complete prototype, with a decent board (maybe just paper, but properly sized, nicely laid-out and with clear graphics), cards, counters, tokens, whatever is needed to really play the game. More solo playtesting may follow, but the game is now ready for playtest by people other than me. And the rest is lather, rinse, repeat.

Katherine
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None of this works for me.

None of this works for me.

My ideas always grow from a theme and I need to have the bits first - just paper and buttons usually. I use a home made "desk blotter" quad board with butchers paper to sketch the theme.

After I have all the bits I can see where it is going and start to work on the actions and rules.

My notes, rules and paper board get put into a marbig folder and ignored for 3 months, or longer before revisiting it.

Friends tell me I am silly for starting with the bits and the bookcase is full of marbig folders but I enjoy doing it this way and having the idea laid out on the table gets others involved at a really early stage.

larienna
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Simulating in software

Quote:
As an aside, I don't make a prototype until I have the game completely simulated in software, usually using a spreadsheet. I then model and plays through scores of games using the spreadsheet before I ever approach actually making something physical.

Is it really less work to simulate a game using a software and using generic components or pen and paper?

kungfugeek
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larienna wrote:Is it really

larienna wrote:
Is it really less work to simulate a game using a software and using generic components or pen and paper?

I'm guessing that depends entirely on your skillset. For example, I'm terrible at art, not very good with math, and not even very good with spreadsheets, but I can write Java code. So for me, especially when trying to determine probabilities, I'll take an hour or two to write a Java program that will run through 100,000 simplified scenarios in a matter of seconds, and tell me if I need to tweak something.

Also, when I try to write AI, it really forces me to examine the different choices critically.

For one (now shelved) project, I wrote a Java program that would even do part of the artwork for me, by writing out a file in the open-document format, which I could then load into Inkscape and tweak. The program was necessary because the artwork had to be very technically precise (about as precise as UPC bar-codes, some lines needing to be 1/64 of an inch apart -- yeah, i started running into limitations with my inkjet printer). To have drawn that by hand, or even in Inkscape, would have been very difficult and time consuming.

clearclaw
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larienna wrote:Is it really

larienna wrote:
Is it really less work to simulate a game using a software and using generic components or pen and paper?

Yes. I can model more of the system and exercise more of the system faster and to a greater depth than I ever could shoving bits around a table. Given the right mathematical model I can then approach demonstrating that the game is actually valid.

larienna
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I really never tried math

I actually never tried using mathematics in my game to balance the mechanics. I am not good enough in advanced math to do it, but like the previous post, I could do a program to test all the possibilities. I'll see if it could eventually get useful

PFreer
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Approach

I think, it is generally a individual thing and usually based on what one is most comfortable with creatively.
I personally enjoy working through ideas in a diary, tracking the changes as I go, drawing pictures, flowcharts etc. (means I can do it on the bus etc) If the mathy bits start appearing i'll try and resolve them in excel. But, for me, working on a computer is an unenjoyable part of the process. I don't really care if it speeds up the game designing process- it makes it unfun. As a process I also believe hitting the math early on is not always the best idea. Having an intuitive sense of the play is better than having a mathmatically tuned game that is no fun to play.
I guess my methodology is: theme drives mechanics: brainstorm on paper. Get a quick prototype up as fast as possible: being fun is the most important bit and actually "playing" something will prove that quickly. Keep iterating on the prototype.
the process kinda works: the biggest issue I have is getting playtesting in, not having a people locally to test the latest mess breaks the process a bit.

Katherine
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can someone please define

can someone please define mathematics.

It seems to mean different things to different designers, and it is confusing for the beginner.

For example costing and calculating odds. I learnt a lot from Hedge-o-matic's post on calculating costs and others on calculating the odds. I don't get anything from the above posts because the term mathematics is not specific.

ta

PFreer
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mmm

Well some people are coding to prototype/test their games. that's not really math but a handy way, if so inclined, to work through iterative design and test systems (I'm a dunce, so chips and cardboard for me).
The other math, I think we're talking about, is probability, combinatorial interactions, maybe economic systems too?

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