Brainstorm Time_thread formerly known as: Fundamental Flaw with Customizable Card Games?

I think you're missing the options presented to the player in these circumstances.

The first example that came to my head was the Pokemon TCG. There's a card called Pokemon Trader where you get to trade a Pokemon in your hand for one in your deck. This can be more helpful than just having a creature take that card's place in the deck because different creatures are more effective at different times.

If I have a hand of 3 Magikarp and 1 Rattata, I have little to no reason to keep all of those Magikarp when I could just trade one away from a Gyarados, or a strong Basic level creature. On the flip side, if I have 2 Gyarados in my hand and no Magikarp anywhere, I might trade one away so that I can actually use the other one some time soon.

In Magic, there are special Land cards that let you search your deck for Basic Lands, or sometimes tap to use as Lands themselves. This is nice because you're only allowed to normally play 1 Basic Land per turn. It seems unnecessary, but actually can make a huge difference, especially early in the game.

Oddly enough, I noticed that this feature has been completely omitted from Hearthstone. Sure there are cards that let you draw random cards from your deck, but nothing that lets you actively search for what you want.

I think I see what you mean now. Basically you're saying that the fact these cards exist present a flaw in the game?

To put it in very common terms, it sounds like you're looking to make a Minecraft/Lego card game with battle elements. The contents of your hand allow to build something in nearly any instance using multiple cards. The options are so numerous that you'd rarely have to search for something.

Actually... that sounds like a pretty awesome game theme!

Perhaps the cards mostly consist of lumber, metal, bone, etc. and you have a variety of things you can build from those cards. Your building options could be limited to a predetermined set of "blueprints" that you placed in your deck. These blueprints could be placed aside like Commanders in the new Magic series.

You'd build shields, crossbows, catapults, etc. Not sure why I gravitated toward the Medieval theme... This has some good potential for a game.

Was that what you were referring to?

IMHO, there's one word I describe modern Magic with-

Bloated.

Slowly but surely, one "answer" proved to be very powerful, so to balance it WotC produced the next "answer" (by the way, I'm loving that term for this situation). Then perhaps a new set was released with an ultimate "answer" that you HAD to buy or else your chances of winning was lower.

This is part of why Dominion has had 8 expansions but never seems bloated. You can essentially play with whatever rules you'd like.

Wanna play a game with Goons, Masquerade, and a bunch of Alchemy cards for a super-complex game? Go for it. Wanna play a game with Villages, Quarries, and some simple Attack cards for a simpler game? Have a field day.

That's actually part of why I liked the Blueprints idea above too since you could potentially put them aside to be used as everyone's pool. Rules can be as complex or simple as the players like.

Now there's a real possibility. Or perhaps the two work together? Here are some possibilities, attempting to be as genre-vague as possible:

Housing- The pool bp include something like "Two-Story Building" or "Below Ground Building", but then the players can use more specific bp that correlate like "Infirmary" or "Wine Cellar", respectively.

Vehicles- The pool bp include "Small Watercraft" or "Treads", allowing players to use "Pontoon" or "2-Person Tank".

Armed Units- The pool bp include "Heavyweight" or "Stealth", allowing players to use "Battering Ram" or "Assassin".

This system, however, would require that each player bp has multiple options for pool bp to go off of, otherwise a player may have cards in their deck that are totally useless if the one correct pool bp isn't in play.

ex: The "Infirmary" bp used above could be used in conjunction with either "2-Story", "Medical", or "Professional" pool bp.

ex: An "Interplanetary Freight Ship" player bp could be used in conjunction with either "Cargo", "Heavyweight", or "Long Distance".

There could be a whole web of ways that different cards correlate to others.

Hmm... but now we're getting into a mana system like Magic, which could then lead to the problem that this thread first addressed at the start.

Would the earth and force elements be in the form of cards in the player's deck? What happens when they're used? Are they discarded for good, left on the table to be used again next turn, or discarded with the rule that once your deck is out you reshuffle the discards and keep going (not to be confused with actual deck-building)?

There's definitely something here, though. I like the way you've got me thinking about streamlining this CCG process as I'm always a fan of games that are more simplistic and straight-forward than overly tactical and with lots of options. Seriously, I'll play Walk the Plank over Caverna any day.

Now THIS is sparking something in my brain! Let's say for now that there are a collection of blueprints in your deck, and, say, 10 blueprints in the pool that can be taken by any player, but there's only 1 card per blueprint.

ex: If I have a wood-wood-metal, I can build a trebuchet from the pool bp, move that bp from the pool to my play area, and place the needed materials underneath it.

But then, let's say that at some point my trebuchet is destroyed. Perhaps I can salvage some parts from the materials underneath the bp? Thematically, the trebuchet didn't just vaporize into thin air, I could potentially use the parts to build something else, or help build another trebuchet!

I get to add 1 wood from the first trebuchet to my hand and discard the rest for good.

Shuffling discarded bp into your deck sounds like a good idea. Thematically, your team has the knowledge to build it, but it will take a while to find the bp to build another.

This is great because the game essentially has 2 different card types: Materials/Mana to create with, and the blueprints. Perhaps add an Instant/Sorcery card type as well for flavor. Makes for a very streamlined game in my head.

So then, are blueprints always common knowledge? Otherwise there wouldn't be any real "bluffing" unless everyone has the same deck components (which could very well happen).

OR! What if you chose which blueprints would be added to the pool bp, but both players could then use them? One player may strategize around 3 particular bp in their set of 6 or 7, but they could also be used/taken by other players?

But at that point it's a little weird if one person gets close to finishing a machine, the other player takes it first, and then they can't finish it. They both had the instructions, and they both have the materials... hmm...

At that point it makes more sense to treat the bp as recruits instead, since there is a limited supply of them, but then that would negate the need for materials to build things.

You would need multiple cards of each bp if you go that route, or tokens whose shape/color matches the bp so you don't need multiple cards.

In my head, either the pool bp or the player bp have to go. Also, would this then be a CCG like Magic where your deck is purely your own, or like Dominion where everyone gets to build things from a pool?

So I've percolated on the idea for a few days now and bounced what we've discussed here with my closest gamer friend, and here are some ideas:

-Player bp seems a necessity, otherwise the customization aspects of the game are slightly lost. However, they should generally be weaker than pool bp.

-Pool bp should be limited to 4 or 5 cards per item. Once they run out players have the opportunity to build the next technological advancement (e.g., once the 4-5 Trebuchets are built, no more can be built and the Catapult card is introduced).

-Certain resources are only provided by certain blueprints. For example, a Steam Engine or Hydro-Electric Dam could be built to provide energy, or electricity resources, depending on the theme.

-This mechanic seems viable for many different themes. My friend suggested a technology race theme, we mentioned city-building, I still see it as a magic-style battle game.

-Is there a way this could be a co-op game? It might negate the need for a customized deck, but the mechanic at its heart might work.