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Dice vs. Strategy

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Tue, 07/16/2013 - 18:40
#31
Deveration
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Considering this is a card

Considering this is a card game why not go the more elegant route and have the Derelict's deck be the random factor.

Players would draw from the derelict deck and play the options as they come and then respond to the outcome. This makes sense as the ship might not be "together" but still in functional chunks.

Chunks might even have something like:
Fragile: Lasts for 3 rounds, then is destroyed.
Aggressive: Fires each round if able

Chunks might even have the ability to bond:
Bond: If a ship part of type A is in play, attach it to that piece.

This way you are playing to the games strengths and remain in the mechanics. This also would allow for coop and solo play.

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Tue, 07/16/2013 - 22:36
#32
questccg
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Not 100% sure yet

Deveration wrote:
Considering this is a card game why not go the more elegant route and have the Derelict's deck be the random factor.

Players would draw from the derelict deck and play the options as they come and then respond to the outcome.

Well I did not want to have to have a *deck* just for the Derelict. Just like each player, there are three (3) cards that define the Derelict starship: one model/class, one crew card and one weapon card.

I think a *recharge rate* gives player's breathing room to collect/trade and *buy* more powerful cards. A dynamic weapon (like 1d6) does give a little bit breathing room - but not as much... I'm not sure which one I prefer (of the two options).

Please give me your input...

Which do you prefer?

-*Recharge rate* for weapons means the starship does not attack for a certain amount of turns
-*Dynamic weapon* means each turn you roll 1d6 to determine the strength of the attack

Note: I think I am leaning towards the *Recharge rate* simply because it allows players several turns to plan for an attack in addition to trading (and possibly buying) cards.

Note 2: Just a FYI, I would give the Derelict's *Crew rating* = 5 and *Weapon rating* = 5 (+1d6 recharge rate) and the model/class would be 0/10 (Toughness). That would make the starship a 5/15 BEAST! :P

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Wed, 07/17/2013 - 13:35
#33
StagCutlery
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If you're already using dice

If you're already using dice as a way to track resources, then a recharge die should fit in nicely (recharge then is similar to a resource).

I know you're not keen on having a derelict deck, but for the sake of trying it out, make a Weapon Rating deck of 15 cards (ten 5's, two 6's, two 7's, and one 8). Reveal the top card when the Derelict attacks and reshuffle when the deck is empty.

Try both and how each one builds tension. Then go with the one you like best.

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Wed, 07/17/2013 - 19:22
#34
questccg
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Box constraint

StagCutlery wrote:
I know you're not keen on having a derelict deck, but for the sake of trying it out, make a Weapon Rating deck of 15 cards (ten 5's, two 6's, two 7's, and one 8). Reveal the top card when the Derelict attacks and reshuffle when the deck is empty.

The reason I did not want to use a separate deck for a scenario is that the deck and cards are already divided for the game's packaging. I have already gotten a preliminary quote for the custom production of 500 units. Obviously there must be corrections (once the prototype is fully tested) however there is limited amount of card space in the box.

The box is divided into 6 same-sized compartments for each stack of cards. Then there are 2 same-sized compartments for dice and wooden blocks.

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Wed, 07/17/2013 - 21:42
#35
StagCutlery
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In that case, can you have a

In that case, can you have a special ability on the Hull of the derelict state that it adds +3 the Weapon Rating? Then use ten 2's, two 3's, two 4's, and one 5 from your normal weapon deck?

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Thu, 07/18/2013 - 00:37
#36
Deveration
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questccg wrote: Please give

questccg wrote:

Please give me your input...

Which do you prefer?

-*Recharge rate* for weapons means the starship does not attack for a certain amount of turns
-*Dynamic weapon* means each turn you roll 1d6 to determine the strength of the attack

Given those two choices I prefer a recharge rate. From a gameplay standpoint it makes things more of a tension issue.

However you would have to track these turns still, and that feels "cheap" as the players will have to handle all the actions of this ship. The Dice is nicer in that it is automatic (save for a roll) and arbitrary. No one will feel like they are getting picked on by the Derelict as its random. There is a lack of tension though as you loose the x turn build up player planning. Instead you have: "will it shoot at me next (roll dice); well, hell/yay."

However I think you can still get both and not have to deal with any arbitrary tracking or anything too far off of your current rules. Much like StagCutlery is suggesting. Out of your card base build a (predefined) set of weapons, items, and actions for the Derelict. Each turn a player draws the top card and it goes into effect immediately (if possible) and is then destroyed after resolving (Derelict Scenario Rules). Targeting for a gun will be the ship that is the highest threat either HP/Crew or Atk/Weapon. If tied let the players decide.

This way the rules are not written on cards, but still use the cards that exist currently. Plus derelict remains essentially automatic and arbitrary in its actions which riddled with flavor. The rules are even a scenario so they can take up space with X other scenarios in the rule book.

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Thu, 07/25/2013 - 22:34
#37
eviljohs
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um well. .

That was a lot of reading. and a comment on the original. Back to the theory. Dice vs strategy. I don't think the two need to be exclusive. There is a bit of variance in battle that is impossible to play out with cards. Sure have modifiers for better crew or ships. And use a dice to sway only the last little bit. Example would be that of course a massive dreadnaught is always going to win against a beat up little tub of a ship. despite what ever the variances are. But two ships seemingly evenly matched. I think the players need a bit of unknown going into battle. Not a all or nothing roll of the dice, but a small push better or worse to account for a wild factor.

Now on to how. I remember a game called bang. Ya, bang, I just looked it up. Some of the cards (character cards?) have bullets on the back. And the characters not being used by the players get flipped over and layed underneath the players active character, as a method to track damage. Sliding the card farther down, covering up more bullets as the player recives more damage. So in your case ships that arnt being used by the player get flipped over underneath the current in play ship, with (fighters? perhaps) on the back to track damage.

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Thu, 07/25/2013 - 22:41
#38
eviljohs
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MtG

From what I remember, It seemed a bit linear at first. If one player did this, then other player does this. Not a huge amount of strategy. Over the years however they have developed more depth for strategy. In that they now (with all the different cards and set they now have out) have lots and lots and lots of different combinations of ways to use the cards. Between the different stats, and skills, and whatnot. LOTS and LOTS.

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Fri, 07/26/2013 - 22:27
#39
questccg
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More strategy

eviljohs wrote:
Example would be that of course a massive dreadnaught is always going to win against a beat up little tub of a ship. despite what ever the variances are.

In my game that is NOT TRUE. Let me explain:

-A Destroyer Class starship (the biggest one) has 3/2 (Attack) or 2/3 (Defense).
-If you equip it with a *Recruit Crew* that gives a defensive bonus of +1
-If you equip it with a *Photonic Torpedo* that gives an offensive bonus of +1

Basically you now have either a 4/3 (Attack) or a 3/4 (Defense). That can be MATCHED by MANY other combinations of classes, crews and weapons.

The thing to remember is that even if you have the most powerful class, does not mean you have the strongest crew or weapon. AND even if you DO, there are Enhancement cards which can be used against the powerful starships to REDUCE their efficiency.

Once such an instant card is the *Deflector Shield* which basically turns the tables on a player: basically instead of causing a certain amount of damage, the shield deflects that damage back on to it's attacker. Obviously the opponent may counter with a *Deflector Shield* himself... This is part of the fun. Enhancements (which are Instant cards) add more strategy to the game and make things a little more challenging.

Note: This game is a DBG (Deck-Building Game). So it's not like in Magic: the Gathering where once you play the Instant card that's it, it gets discarded. In my game the card go into the discard pile, which is then reshuffled and back in your deck once the Draw pile drops to 0 cards... So you can use Enhancements (Instants) over and over... Same goes with starships and the other upgrade cards.

But because this is a DBG, you need to master having an optimal deck to get the cards you want, also in terms of trading (since another important mechanic in the game is TRADE). Too big a deck or too weak a deck are things that can be remedied but take time and in most games you are racing against your opponents.

Ultimately you need to balance TRADE and WARFARE. Too much of one and too little of the other could prove to be the reason you lose the game. So there is a lot of things to balance and in 3 or 4 player games it's even tougher since players can form alliances and then be treacherous and break them, etc...

I really hope I have solved the game's PACING. It's currently the only thing that worries me... Too slow and the game takes too long to play (obviously that is my first concern).

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Tue, 08/13/2013 - 14:07
#40
eviljohs
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I like what you are going

I like what you are going for. If you are interested in an play testing. I would be happy to try it out.

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Tue, 08/13/2013 - 15:42
#41
questccg
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Update

Just to let designers know, I have restored the concept of *initiative* in the game. This means that players need to each roll 1d6 prior to combat resolution. If the roll is in favor of the Attacking player, the attack can proceed. If the roll is in favor of the Defender, the attack ends.

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