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Do you like playing HARDER games???

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Fri, 02/18/2022 - 23:49
questccg
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Usually I stick to designing games that NINE (9) year old's can play with a bit of coaching and then they can partake in the FUN. But in the case of "Monster Keep" (MK) ... I found this last playtest to be pretty TAXING on the BRAIN! Ok so I managed to do OKAY to score 11/13. But it took me a good 5 minutes just to work out an equation that WORKS!

Granted Player #2's 12/13 score was a bit easier to Formulate... It makes me wonder... About PEOPLE like YOU!

Do you like playing HARDER games???

The kind that take you a few minutes to figure out (not hours). But require you to figure out: "Put a ^2 here and a x(2 / 2) there, etc???"

Of course you need to LIKE MATH. That's a no brainer. But to actually sit there and THINK of what OPERANDS and OPERATORS you need to put together to get a REASONABLE SCORE (11/13 and 12/13 are BOTH pretty good scores), is that something that interests you as a GAMER???

Just wondering because I'm positive some people like games that challenge them mentally... How to SOLVE THIS or PLAY THAT or USE THAT TACTIC or ATTACK THAT CARD, etc. This playtest was more interesting than most... In that NO AP but it gave me the overall impression that it's a much HARDER game than most of my other designs...

Maybe this means that the game is for ADULTS and simpler DECKS can be designed for KIDS to compete (I have simpler decks for sure too...) I've just been playtesting the HARDER ones ... Because my guess is that IF the HARD decks are FUN... So that means the EASIER ones will be much more engaging for the average player.

What are your thoughts???

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Sat, 02/19/2022 - 00:12
#1
questccg
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Here are the two (2) scoresheets

Player #1: (((2 x 3) x (4 / 2)) -1) ^ 1 = 11

Player #2: (((-2 - 1) ^ 2) x (2 / 2)) + 3 = 12

Dice Roll = 5 + 4 + 2 + 2 = 13 (Closest Score to Win)

Granted these formulas are NOT the most complicated MATH I have seen in LIFE... Believe my Calculus II and Electrical Engineering Courses proved much more difficult. But still... These may be a bit HARD (HARDER?!) for most nine (9) year old's that I know.

And remember that it's NOT Analysis-Paralysis when it comes to the "Formulation" phase, because it's not MATH that is difficult but working through something that allows you to REMOVE things from the equation like (2 / 2) = 1... So usually you can trim the equation by a couple OPERATORS and/or OPERANDS... Tricky YES, Impossible NO.

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Sat, 02/19/2022 - 09:16
#2
X3M
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Math difficulty

I think that the difficulty of a game in regards to math can be put on a scale.
With each next step, the number of players being able to calculate stuff declines.

Of course, an extra digit immediately means it will be the next scale as well.
The list, I put them in order to my guts feeling. But I am sure a study has been done. I also have the feeling that the number of players is about half with each next step.

Comparison, < > =
Addition
Subtraction
Multiplication
Power of 2
Negative numbers
Division
Division with brackets and rounding as result
Power of 3 or more
Root of the power of 2
Root of the power of 3 or more

Henceforth, while I personally have done calculations on divisions with rounding, negative numbers, and powers of 2.
The players for the prototype game only had to do multiplications, subtractions and additions before comparisons.
The so called public version would have only additions, subtractions and comparisons. Of which I even plan to remove subtractions.

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Sat, 02/19/2022 - 12:49
#3
let-off studios
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Age

For me personally, I've begun to like mathematics more as I've grown older. I feel like I've simply become more curious about math.

However, I tend to like higher-level mathematics in a more practical, pragmatic environment. Workplace-related problems, or in learning how things work in the real world is attractive to me.

When I play games, I don't necessarily enjoy math in that context. I find a lot of enjoyment in dealing with input randomness: making the best of a situation based on what I have to work with. In that sense, games like One Deck Dungeon or even Poker have appeal. You throw some dice or deal out cards, then try to figure out the best approach for success in those circumstances.

In that game, the most intense mathematics demanded of me would be addition. When I see mathematics puzzles in game magazines, being a step above Sudoku or Nonograms for example, I typically give them a pass. Dealing with other kinds of operands beyond addition doesn't seem very fun to me, so I'll frequently skip anything that demands it of me and will choose to throw some dice around instead.

To sum it up: at best, I'd like any mathematics beyond addition and general probability to be a practical simulation that helps me build skills, not "just a game." At worst, I'll skip so-called "math games" and puzzles immediately.

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Sat, 02/19/2022 - 17:23
#4
questccg
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Excellent LIST!!!

X3M wrote:
I think that the difficulty of a game in regards to math can be put on a scale. With each next step, the number of players being able to calculate stuff declines.

Makes 100% sense that the difficulty increases as the type of operations gets added an extra step.

X3M wrote:
The list, I put them in order to my guts feeling. But I am sure a study has been done. I also have the feeling that the number of players is about half with each next step.

Thank you for this comprehensive list of operations. I agree with it... I did not put ROOTS into the game because I felt like "Exponents" (or Powers) would be sufficient enough for the game to just have an EXTRA "minus inverter" to help players achieve their goals.

X3M wrote:

Comparison, < > =
Addition
Subtraction
Multiplication
Power of 2
Negative numbers
Division
Division with brackets and rounding as result
Power of 3 or more
Root of the power of 2
Root of the power of 3 or more

This all sounds VERY TRUE as far as operators are concerned... I also agree with your assessment of the list: harder as you move down the list.

X3M wrote:
Henceforth, while I personally have done calculations on divisions with rounding, negative numbers, and powers of 2.

Divisions must be whole numbers such as 1, 2 or 3. Could be higher like at the top "4" ... But generally speaking players will want to maybe combine a "multiplication" ("x") with a "division" ("/") to simplify the equation.

X3M wrote:
The players for the prototype game only had to do multiplications, subtractions and additions before comparisons. The so called public version would have only additions, subtractions and comparisons. Of which I even plan to remove subtractions.

I don't plan to go into "roots" nor allow for rounded divisions. Those two (2) operations just require too much additional complexity. Furthermore roots are on the bottom of your list making them the most difficult operators to manage.

But a BIG "Thank You" for sharing... I really do appreciate the input and I will keep that LIST in mind too. It's a great reference tool.

BTW you never did state if such a MATH "Card Game" would interest you??? Just curious for someone who enjoys mathematics ... Would this be something that you would be willing to TRY?!

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Sat, 02/19/2022 - 17:44
#5
questccg
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I understand what you mean...

let-off studios wrote:
For me personally, I've begun to like mathematics more as I've grown older. I feel like I've simply become more curious about math.

Dealing with other kinds of operands beyond addition doesn't seem very fun to me, so I'll frequently skip anything that demands it of me and will choose to throw some dice around instead...

But at the same time, the cards look "so cool" (even as a Prototype) with nice art that would definitely make the cards far more "COLLECTIBLE". It reminds me of the "Star Trek TNG" CCG: you could collect the cards to get Data, Picard, Troy, LaForge, etc. And a whole cast of starships, items and such. BUT you could ALSO play a GAME with the cards. Admittedly, the game was not the most amazing game ever... But it was a STEP above just collecting the cards which most of us did because we liked "ST:TNG".

I think I remember playing ONE (1) game ONCE at home with a friend.

That was it with regards to my limited exposure to THE GAME. So yeah, collectibility with a GAME was the purpose of those CCG cards. I guess in another sense, MK would not be a game for you... But I can picture people with bigger BRAINS than me... Being able to UNDERSTAND which cards to play the game with... And there are things like COMPREHENDING the OPERANDS and knowing IN-ADVANCE which cards to play down for a specific combination of cards.

Again, this is probably not you... But I can picture TOURNAMENT players or people who would be SERIOUS about the GAME... They would have a completely different TAKE on the game: it would be knowing their DECK and working with the "Total Dice Amount" and knowing which cards they NEED to win a game even before the CARDS are played!

I'm not a big MATH "fan" ... But in this particular game, I wanted something reasonably LITE ... Yet still "DA BOMB" when it comes to Formulation. So hitting the "Total Dice Amount" is an amazing feel when you MANAGE to do it!

As per, "rolling a few dice" ... This is something much different. Believe it or not, many people DISLIKE the "chance" with rolling dice. Since in MK, the only dice rolling is to choose a player's Mana Pools and the "Total Dice Amount", it means that the game isn't about CHANCE.

It's a bit of OUT-SMARTING your opponent, inflicting the RIGHT kind of DAMAGE and generally Formulating WHILE you PLAY and not necessarily AT THE END of the game as MOST people will do. The REAL STRONG players will be Formulating at each card being played and understanding the nature of the balance that each card may have.

But again, I recognize that this is NOT a game for you...

And so to conclude, would it be fair to say you prefer "easier" games??? Whereas @X3M may like more "challenging" games when it comes to MATH...! Again there is nothing wrong with that. We all have our preferences... But even by @X3M's own admission, he too would need to TRIM the "MATH" out of games because most people could simply NOT handle it...

Further thoughts??? Anyone!

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Sat, 02/19/2022 - 19:02
#6
questccg
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Using small numbers: 1, 2, and 3...

X3M wrote:
I think that the difficulty of a game in regards to math can be put on a scale. With each next step, the number of players being able to calculate stuff declines.

I also wanted to add (Pun-intended! LOL) that when keeping the numbers relatively SMALL under 5 or 6 (for the most part)... Also simplifies the calculations. If you are dealing with "1", "2" and maybe "3", it keeps the Formulas rather simple.

And since the "Total Win Amount" is 4 to 24... It means small numbers is mostly what you need to win with an equation.

So you are risking LESS in terms of overall "MATH" complexity due to the OPERANDS and the smaller numbers. Plus there are ways of off-setting a division with a multiplication (for example) and a negative number can be put to a Power of 2 to make it positive.

Therefore that while EACH STEP makes it harder... In allowing players to figure out their OWN NUMBERS (OPERANDS) make the Formulation phase easier to handle (for most, I believe).

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Sat, 02/19/2022 - 22:30
#7
let-off studios
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You're Probably Right

questccg wrote:
And so to conclude, would it be fair to say you prefer "easier" games???
I agree, and I think that's a completely reasonable conclusion. :)

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Sat, 02/19/2022 - 23:00
#8
questccg
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That is perfectly acceptable!

let-off studios wrote:
questccg wrote:
And so to conclude, would it be fair to say you prefer "easier" games???
I agree, and I think that's a completely reasonable conclusion. :)

The thing with "card games" is in order to have a reasonable level of complexity, I mean you don't want to reproduce a game of War nor Magic: the Gathering. At the same time, you need players to be engaged in the game... Meaning it just can't be "fluff" like a game of Monopoly. And yes, Monopoly is a well selling game ... That's not why I call it "fluff".

And don't take this wrong way @let-off studios ... Monopoly primary mechanics are rolling dice and set collection. Two relatively SIMPLE mechanics.

But IF you ever TRY to design a "card game" (like a CCG or TCG) you'll find that there are two (2) MAJOR issues that need a solution:

1. You need the "card game" to have "sufficient" complexity. It can't be "fluff" because usually "card games" are limited to some cards and maybe a few dice and tokens. The GAME needs to be VERY GOOD (to say the least).

2. There are usually no other complements like a LARGE Board or Player Mats in most cases... So what you DO with the cards is majorly what the game is about.

I've design a CCG called "Rain of Fire" many, many moons ago. It was about the war between Angels & Demons. There were three sets: Heavens, Hell and Earth. This was in the years where I understood little about HOW to go about in designing games. Needless to say the game was COMPLETE and TOTAL CRAP!!!

Why?! Because there wasn't any type of SYSTEM (or perhaps a very POOR one at best) and so the cards were a bit "cool" the game was pure garbage.

Since then I've learned that for a "CARD GAME" you need a SOLID FOUNDATION. You need the game to be GOOD or maybe even GREAT in terms of the game's concept and then you need to take this IDEA and BUILD upon it.

And that's where the whole BALANCE between TOO COMPLEX vs TOO SIMPLE needs to be found. And maybe to some, it may still be too complex for them to WANT to play the game, which again is perfectly acceptable too!

There is nothing wrong (IMHO) with Dice games or games that utilize dice as mechanics it's just that in the case of this game, they are used at the VERY START of the game to determine the Victory Goal and Mana Pool points. The rest is more or less DETERMINISM.

I'll be the first to say that MOST of my games are SIMPLER in nature. It's just that I CANNOT "over-simplify" MK ... Because that would make for a VERY "crappy" game -- TBH!

The "MATH" is not just a mechanic in the game... IT IS THE GAME (in the end)! How well you played your cards, knock-out your opponent's operands and correct for any troubles by your opponent ... Will LEAD to a Victory or a loss.

Cheers all.

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Sun, 02/20/2022 - 10:17
#9
X3M
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Its in dutch (because we are smart)

https://www.deflippo.nl/uncategorized/24-game-421-t-m-430/

Children of 8 to 12 year old played this game.

+×÷- is used. And they need to get to 24.

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Sun, 02/20/2022 - 17:55
#10
questccg
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Wow ... That actually looks COOL!!!

At first I was confused what the NUMBERS were (2346, 2862, 3115, etc.) but I then with further observation figured out which WHEELS are to be used. How do the operators come into play??? ("+", "-", "x" and "/") I ask only because I'm unsure how many players PLAY this game... Is this a 1-Player game?! Or is it for 2-Players?? Very interesting...

Wow... That actually inspires me some more "confidence" with "Monster Keep" (MK) because this 24 Point game seems to be "challenging" but nothing else (meaning that there is no fancy art, it's just dice and wheels with numbers).

MK is of course very different... Because there is DUELING (during the Knock-Out phases of Round #1 and #2). But it does use dice for determining the Mana Pools and the Score Total players need to reach in order to win.

Curious: "How does it play???" If it's too complicated to explain... Maybe you know of a rulebook I can read (maybe)?! Just curiosity ... Because this may make MK much more popular in a place like the "Netherlands" (again maybe)?!

When I'm done with the prototype, maybe I can send you a copy?! It's only 4 Pages (Black & White). You need two (2) copies of each page (for 2-Players). There is no multi-player mode only dueling... Let me know!

Cheers... And really cool to share that with us @X3M!

Note #1: I read the introduction and it was about Hawaii and POGs... But where do the "numbers" and "dice" come into play??? The things they call "mutants" as probably just "VARIANTS", right?! Variation on the POGs and how to play with them...?

Wish there were more explanations... Just curious about these numeric POGs.

Note #2: I did some Googling for "24 game" and found this:

https://www.24game.com/t-about-howtoplay.aspx

OMG... I watched the VIDEO on that website ... And now I understand the 24 game. "Monster Keep" (MK) is going to ROCK!!! Hahaha. Never seen this game in my life (thanks to @X3M) but I've got to say ... It's very NEAT! And is also a MATH game with SIMPLE equations.

MK is different, but the essence of computing the equation is in the SAME spirit of the game. But it's more of a GAME also... Cool beans!

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Sun, 02/20/2022 - 18:15
#11
X3M
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How to play

2 or more players watch the numbers on the flippo.

The players decide how the operators come into play.
As soon as a player knows the answer. It can claim the flippo by holding it and tell the other players how to get to 24.

1234 can be 1X2X3X4 = 24

1347 can be 7*3 + 4 -1 = 24
or 7*4 - 3 - 1 = 24

Difficulty depends on the tricks and possibilities.

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Sun, 02/20/2022 - 18:16
#12
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Championships

Someone from my class (30 years ago) managed to get into the national championship. :)

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Sun, 02/20/2022 - 18:50
#13
questccg
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Cool beans!

X3M wrote:
Someone from my class (30 years ago) managed to get into the national championship. :)

Yeah that's actually HELPED me A LOT! Flippo or 24 Game is about choosing the correct OPERATORS in order to solve an equation where the answer is ALWAYS 24.

"Monster Keep" (MK) is a dueling game for 2-Players in which the opposite is true: given a series of operators you must choose the best OPERANDS in order to solve for a RANDOMIZE Score Total that is determined at the start of the game!

Operands (or numbers) are the SAME: 1 to 9.

But I think that ATM the highest value in MK is 6.

Operators are very similar with the addition of the "Exponent" ("^") which allows players to INVERT a negative value using "^2" (Power of 2). Or there is also the operation of multiplying two (2) negative numbers also.

I knew MK had POTENTIAL... And now that you showed me the POG 24 Game... Holy crap, MK is something to get excited about... I don't know how I will be able to bring the game to market ... But at least have a great prototype to play with and test... Is sufficiently exciting ATM.

Wow... Thank you so much for sharing! I was beginning to think that MK was going to be TOO COMPLICATED (for most people). And then I see the 24 Game being played by children aged 8+ and it gives me hope that IF we as kids collected "Garbage Pail Kids" (which were mondo rude) maybe there is a PLACE for MK in the world...

Cheers @X3M!!!

Note #1: In MK, one of the tricks to handling Division and simplifying it is to do a Multiplication BEFORE and then the Division.

For example: x (4 / 2) = x 2 OR x (6 / 3) = x 2

That yields a multiplication by "2" which is usually very useful in Formulating a valid Equation to achieve the "Score Total".

Another example is "1": x (3 / 3) = x 1 or x (2 / 2) = x 1

Uses two (2) operators to make a NULLIFIED multiplication which does NOT affect the Equation's total... Also very useful.

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Sun, 02/20/2022 - 21:41
#14
questccg
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Tournament play = NOT an all-or-nothing result

Similar to Poker Tournaments, you could have OPEN "duels" where the most important factor is scoring as NEAR as possible to the "Score Total". Meaning that losing by 1 Point is NO BIG DEAL. It's still a respectable score and in the larger scheme of things, it means a "1 Point deviation". So knock-out rounds are more about doing your PERSONAL best. And scored as follows:

1 + 2 + 0 + 0 + 3 = 6 point score in five (5) matches.

The LOWER the point score the better... And a player with only 6 points would certainly be chosen to play in the next set of rounds.

It's not about winning/losing ONLY. It's about PLAYING SMART too! Something like that... Thoughts?!

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Sun, 02/20/2022 - 22:13
#15
questccg
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Also ...

"Monster Keep" (MK) is meant to be a Collectible Card Game (CCG). The 1st Edition of the game ONLY has 15 unique Monsters/Cards... But you can have at MOST three (3) of a card in your 15 Card Deck. You have 30 Build Points (BPs) to construct your Keep of "Monsters"!

So like Flippo there is a COLLECTIBLE aspect to the game too.

But it's a much better game than Flippo (or POGs). Why??? Well let me explain a bit of analysis of POGs.

1. Since all of the POGs are put into one stack, Player #1 has the biggest advantage to score the MOST POGs, then Player #2 is next with the second biggest advantage, and so forth. Going LAST is the worst.

2. Putting everything into one stack ... How can you REMEMBER which POGs belong to which player??? It is difficult to implement a tracking method. Plus the POGs are meant to be shuffled and placed TOGETHER.

3. What's the point of having 1, 2, or 3 POG values if the goal is to always score the MOST points. The analysis leads to making ALL values the SAME. Either play ALL "1" or ALL "2" or ALL "3".

4. Keeping POGs that you collect is not great if YOU play ALL "3" and your opponent plays ALL "1" POGs. There is a case for biased game play.

5. If you have POGs of multiple values, the game is less strategic because it becomes pure LUCK which values you get ("1"s vs "3"s...) So it's fundamentally a game of CHANCE with Player #1 having the biggest stack and opportunity to get the most POGs.

So generally speaking POGs (or Flippo) are actually a poor "game". Sure kids can PLAY ... But if you perform a bit of analysis, you see that the game is not BALANCED and is biased towards the 1st player scoring the most POGs from a single "common" stack.

I'm just doing some "analysis" of the POGs as a "game"... Don't be haters and tell me "it's just a game"... True it is. But it's not the best game for the reasons that I've explained above.

Cheers all!

Note #1: If you LIKE POGs (or Flippo), one way to make the game more "strategic" is when Player #1 hits the stack and scores "3 Points", that SCORE is noted on a PIECE of PAPER: 2 POGs = 3 Points. Subsequent players do the same but before the POGs that were "scored" get put BACK INTO the stack. As such each player has roughly the SAME odds of scoring points.

At the end of the Round (After the last player's turn), the highest NUMBER of POGs "scored" are REMOVED from the stack in ORDER of the HIGHEST score to the lowest one. So if I scored: 3 POGs = 6 Points, we would remove "3 POGs" from the stack and continue forwards for the player with the next highest amount.

This "performs" similar to the original method of play (in that the stack is LOWER for the NEXT ROUND not turn).

Just thought I'd share that with POGs (Flippo) FANS... To make the game more fair and NOT biased towards the First Player onwards. Cheers!

Note #2: If you are playing where the POGs are KEPT, then the fairest way to do so is to INVERSE the above logic and go the LOWEST score to choose his/her POGs first (like 1 POG = 3 Points). The lowest player may get to choose the LEAST amount of POGs to keep even if he/she chooses first.

This means the WINNER of the round with the MOST points goes LAST. BUT... he/she gets to choose the MOST amount of POGs from what is left over from the "common" POG stack.

Again this is a simply a question of maintaining a sense of fairness. The worst performance is awarded the smallest recompense but at the same time the option to choose FIRST. This makes the selection the best for that player even if the other players get to choose more POGs for their selection.

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Mon, 02/21/2022 - 18:08
#16
X3M
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It was played a bit differently

The dots only indicated the difficulty. Each pog was equal in points. Everyone went at the same time.

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Mon, 02/21/2022 - 19:41
#17
questccg
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POGs or 24 Game???

X3M wrote:
The dots only indicated the difficulty. Each pog was equal in points. Everyone went at the same time.

I'm asking because 24 Game was difficulty (dots), equal in points and everyone simultaneously.

But the POG game where you stack and throw a POG at the stack have points (1 to 3), different point values (scoring) and played one player at-a-time.

There are two (2) games with POGs. I think you are referring to 24 Game with the MATH and operators. The POG game is a dexterity game in which you throw POGS against a stack... Like the opposite of JENGA (where you DON'T want the thing to fall)... In POGs, you try to hit the most of the stack as possible to win POGs.

Just wanted to clarify ... My explanations (analysis) was for the POGs game... And not the 24 Game. 24 Game is cool and I see nothing wrong with it. It just may be a bit boring in the LONG RUN. Something that MK hopes to correct with cool art, neat Monsters, interesting Tactics and a very SOUND framework at its base...

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Mon, 02/21/2022 - 20:43
#18
X3M
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Oh, the jenga game

No one liked that one tbh.

And we also had 4 to 8 points eventually.

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