Skip to Content
 

Heaven & Earth (abstract oriental) - some design issues/questions

6 replies [Last post]
SLiV
SLiV's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/21/2011

Hey folks,

I've been designing a game called Heaven and Earth, where two players use their eight pieces to capture their opponents Emperor. The catch being that each piece consists of a Body and a Character, an exterior and an interior if you will. The body defines how the piece moves and which pieces it can capture, whereas the character alters this in various ways. Also the Emperor is a character, so you'll have to figure out during the game which piece it is you're after.

However, there are some things I'm not completely sure about, so I'd love to hear your opinion on them.

The theme of the game is oriental / ancient China / Chinese mythos with Dragons, Pandas, Nightingales, and Emperors. But the mechanics are more that of an abstract game; a combination of chess and Stratego is how I usually introduce it.

For playtesting, I'm currently using a rather abstract gameboard and simple wooden disks with red and green stickers and black letters on them, but on the final product I was thinking of a more sophisticated look. The wooden disks seem to fit the mechanics perfectly, but instead of black letters I thought some simple chinese drawings would be more suitable.

Also, the gameboard is supposed to be a map of sorts; either player starts on one and and through the middle runs a river, going from the mountains in the west to the beaches in the east. In its current form, it's just colored hexes that somewhat resemble this, but I was thinking about having an artist draw the actual board; adding hills, forests, litte cottages etc.

It would be mostly eye-candy, though, since only a few spaces on the board need to be marked; for instance the river has no relevance to the game.

[1] The main question I have is, would the theme be too distracting for the abstractness of the mechanics? Or would they help keep the game light and pleasant to play?

--
Other than that, I have some minor issues I'd like to hear your thoughts about.

Since it's rather difficult for players to remember which piece is which, I'm having them write it down on a small piece of paper. Since it was a bit of a hassle finding books etc to hide them behind, I figured making player aids that can be placed as a cover would work; they'd also make it easy for a player to see what each piece does.

[2] But perhaps this is too clumsy?
And/or can you think of a more elegant solution? I think adding extra pieces would ruin the simplicity and beauty of the game, so I'm a little hesitant to come up with good ideas.

Lastly, some naming issues.

The center 7 pieces of the board are only accessible to the Panda, the Nightingale, the Lotus and the Queen. The idea is that these pieces are somewhat weaker and less violent than the other pieces, and are therefore provided a safe haven - except for the fact that they can capture eachother just as easily.
In the Dutch version (my native langauge), it's called "het Vrederijk", i.e. "the Empire of Peace", but in English I found "the Garden" to be more intuitive; especially since the actual 'peace' aspect of it has been removed during early development.
[3] Would "the Garden" (and retroactively "de Tuin") be less confusing than "the Empire of Peace"?

I have a piece called the Bodyguard, that can be sacrificed at any time in order to save another piece - e.g. when you Emperor has unexpectedly been captured, you can sacrifice your Bodyguard to make sure you don't lose the game at once.
[4] Is the name 'Bodyguard' too modern? Is it suitable for a piece that sacrifices itself from a thousand miles away?

Also, the Hunter is a piece specifically designed to counter the Elephant and Panda, both rather strong pieces. I suppose the idea is that an Elephant provides Ivory and the Panda, well, is just pretty and makes for a great Empress' robe or whathaveyou.
[5] Is Hunter a suitable name for this piece, since it doesn't hunt for Tigers or Dragons?

Finally, one of the latest revisions added the Engineer. It's use is pretty simple, when captured, the capturing piece is removed as well - kinda like a bomb, I suppose.
[6] Do you happen to know a nice word for someone who makes explosives? Or perhaps a different name altogether?

I wholeheartedly appreciate your thoughts and suggestions.

PauloAugusto
PauloAugusto's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/04/2011
Hello. I'm kind of new to the

Hello. I'm kind of new to the forums, but here goes.

SLiV wrote:
[...]
[1] The main question I have is, would the theme be too distracting for the abstractness of the mechanics? Or would they help keep the game light and pleasant to play?
[...]

I think abstract games can easily have light themes. For example, chess has a very light medieval war theme. I think an abstract game can go much deeper in theme. I also think that if it goes too deep, it may not suit the game well, indeed.

If the game is abstract, keep the theme from messing with the rules of the game and keep it visually clean, so what's important is easily distinguished. If you do that, i think it will be much more on the side of "help keep the game light and pleasant to play".

SLiV wrote:
[...]
Since it's rather difficult for players to remember which piece is which, I'm having them write it down on a small piece of paper. Since it was a bit of a hassle finding books etc to hide them behind, I figured making player aids that can be placed as a cover would work; they'd also make it easy for a player to see what each piece does.
[...]

It can be hard to remember which unit is what, i also think. Your best weapon against the hardness of learning the game and remembering the rules is integration with a theme and visuals. It is much easier to learn and remember something if we can relate it to something else we know. It is immensely easier to recognize something if it has a distinct image.

For example, in the abstract game Hive, one of the pieces is a grasshopper. Very easy to learn and remember that it is the piece that jumps over the others. And with that specific drawing and green colour, all it takes is a quick glance at the piece to know it is the grasshopper. I really like Hive.

Our brains are extremely effective at visual pattern recognition and still today kick ass on computers.

SLiV wrote:
[...]
In the Dutch version (my native langauge), it's called "het Vrederijk", i.e. "the Empire of Peace", but in English I found "the Garden" to be more intuitive; especially since the actual 'peace' aspect of it has been removed during early development.
[3] Would "the Garden" (and retroactively "de Tuin") be less confusing than "the Empire of Peace"?

I think this is mostly a matter of taste and generally of theme. If you send the game to a publisher, all i've read so far is that the publishers mess/change the theme and often even the name of the game to something that is completely different.
Personally, i really like "the garden". Maybe "The garden of peace". Sanctuary?

SLiV wrote:

I have a piece called the Bodyguard, that can be sacrificed at any time in order to save another piece - e.g. when you Emperor has unexpectedly been captured, you can sacrifice your Bodyguard to make sure you don't lose the game at once.
[4] Is the name 'Bodyguard' too modern? Is it suitable for a piece that sacrifices itself from a thousand miles away?

My personal opinion is: it may feel too modern but, learning the rules in the correct context, it will just feel within theme. If you want to unmodernize it, one idea is changing it to, for example, "Praying Mantis Bodyguard" or "Dragon Scale Shield".
An ancient name is "champion". Although not exactly a bodyguard, "champion" is related.
Another option is Paladin, but that doesn't feel oriental.

SLiV wrote:

[...]
Finally, one of the latest revisions added the Engineer. It's use is pretty simple, when captured, the capturing piece is removed as well - kinda like a bomb, I suppose.
[6] Do you happen to know a nice word for someone who makes explosives? Or perhaps a different name altogether?
[...]

Engineer definetly sounds modern to me, but i may be biased because of not reading the rules all together.
Someone who captures/kills someone else but is also lost? Maybe "berserker" or some name that also relates to recklessly atacking?

SLiV
SLiV's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/21/2011
Thanks for the feedback.

PauloAugusto wrote:
If the game is abstract, keep the theme from messing with the rules of the game and keep it visually clean, so what's important is easily distinguished. If you do that, i think it will be much more on the side of "help keep the game light and pleasant to play".

It can be hard to remember which unit is what, i also think. Your best weapon against the hardness of learning the game and remembering the rules is integration with a theme and visuals. It is much easier to learn and remember something if we can relate it to something else we know. It is immensely easier to recognize something if it has a distinct image.


Good point. I didn't fully realise that the theme is what keeps the game light and playable.

Quote:
Personally, i really like "the garden". Maybe "The garden of peace". Sanctuary?

Hmm, Sanctuary might work as well.

Quote:
An ancient name is "champion". Although not exactly a bodyguard, "champion" is related.
Another option is Paladin, but that doesn't feel oriental.

Yeah, Champion sounds ok as well. Or perhaps Guardian?

Quote:
Engineer definetly sounds modern to me, but i may be biased because of not reading the rules all together.
Someone who captures/kills someone else but is also lost? Maybe "berserker" or some name that also relates to recklessly atacking?

Well, it's not actually an aggressive piece per se. I'll have to think about this one.

PauloAugusto
PauloAugusto's picture
Offline
Joined: 12/04/2011
SLiV wrote:PauloAugusto

SLiV][quote=PauloAugusto wrote:
[...] Or perhaps Guardian?
[...]

Guardian sounds really good.

MondaysHero
Offline
Joined: 07/08/2011
Couple of things

Hey there, it looks like your game is really coming along! Cognrats!

My first thought it, you might want to change the name of the Queen. If she's not the most powerful piece in the game (like in Chess) this might be confusing to players who walk in expecting chess. Perhaps Courtesan?

As for Engineer, to keep with Theme, why not call him the Alchemist? the Emperor had plenty of "doctors" mixing up random things to keep him immortal.

Nto sure if I have an answer for the hunter. I don't think its a bad name.

Good luck as you continue.
-Monday

Spoonful
Offline
Joined: 11/22/2011
Here are my thoughts on your

Here are my thoughts on your questions:

[1], [5]
The theme is not distracting as long as it supports the rules and does not clash with them. By this, I mean it should take what we already know about the theme and use that to help us learn the rules. A perfect example of theme teaching the rules of a game is your hunter-elephant-panda mechanic. Everyone knows that hunters hunt animals. So when they see those pieces, they already know a little bit about how they work without having to learn it. The confusing part is that you also have a tiger and a dragon and people may expect the hunter to be strong against these characters as well. However, you may be able to use the art to create a distinction between hunted and not-hunted animals.

A similar situation arises with your board design. Geographical features have built-in associations: a mountain space may be hard to move through, a forest/garden space may be a good place to hide, a river may be difficult to cross. Mountains could be used to mark a special space and the function of that space could relate to mountains somehow. However, if mountains mean something, then people will expect the other geographical features like the river to mean something as well.
(edit: This is the reason Smallworld uses separate pieces of cardboard to represent the mountains.)

Your other option with the board is to use geographical features purely for flavor and use something else, perhaps man-made features, to indicate special spaces.

[4], [6]
Maybe read up on Chinese history. Gunpowder was invented there, so i'm sure there were lots of words for explosives and bodyguards.

[2]
Check out the game "Confusion: Espionage and Deception in the Cold War". That game had a neat design approach to Stratego-like mechanics.

Hopefully that was helpful. Let me know if anything was unclear. I'm not big on abstracts, but this game seems fun.

-Brian

SLiV
SLiV's picture
Offline
Joined: 10/21/2011
Great comments.

MondaysHero wrote:
Hey there, it looks like your game is really coming along! Cognrats!
Thanks!

Quote:
My first thought it, you might want to change the name of the Queen. If she's not the most powerful piece in the game (like in Chess) this might be confusing to players who walk in expecting chess. Perhaps Courtesan?
Hmm. Well she's not actually called the Queen; she's called the Empress. It was my own mistake; the sticker on the Empress piece says "Q" as to not confuse her with the Elephant ("E") or Emperor ("K").
I think you still raise a valid point, but a lot of my playtesters play chess at various levels, and they did not seem to be confused by it.

Quote:
As for Engineer, to keep with Theme, why not call him the Alchemist? the Emperor had plenty of "doctors" mixing up random things to keep him immortal.
Alchemist! That's the word I was looking for. Thanks!

Spoonful wrote:
The theme is not distracting as long as it supports the rules and does not clash with them. By this, I mean it should take what we already know about the theme and use that to help us learn the rules.
Yeah, I see what you mean.

Quote:
A perfect example of theme teaching the rules of a game is your hunter-elephant-panda mechanic. Everyone knows that hunters hunt animals. So when they see those pieces, they already know a little bit about how they work without having to learn it. The confusing part is that you also have a tiger and a dragon and people may expect the hunter to be strong against these characters as well. However, you may be able to use the art to create a distinction between hunted and not-hunted animals.
Yeah. I guess it could very well be clarified even more by the theme; especially since the Elephant and Panda are two precious but slow pieces.

Quote:
Your other option with the board is to use geographical features purely for flavor and use something else, perhaps man-made features, to indicate special spaces.
Yes, this was what I was thinking off: there might be mountains, rivers and forests, but the serve no gameplay purpose. But the cities on either side do represent something (i.e. the starting positions), as will the wall and temple in the middle (the Garden). I suppose using buildings to differentiate makes sense.

Quote:
Check out the game "Confusion: Espionage and Deception in the Cold War". That game had a neat design approach to Stratego-like mechanics.
Thanks, will do.

Quote:
Hopefully that was helpful.
It was! Thank you both.

Syndicate content


forum | by Dr. Radut