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Limits on Print and Play Pages

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Sun, 04/17/2016 - 14:53
McTeddy
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I've been working on a Print and Play game for a couple weeks and while I love the design I am concerned.

The best way to describe the game is a solitaire RPG with a focus on permanence. As you play, your character will grow but so will the world around you. You'll make friends and enemies, learn secrets that can aid you in the future or even make choices that change future adventures.

The system is designed to allow frequent expansions. The intention is to have a steady stream of new adventures so that the players can actually engage new challenges every couple of weeks.

Each "Adventure Packet" will contain everything from a one page "board" to story line that will be advanced through playing through the stage. (On average, one adventure takes 20-30 minutes)

On average, a standard length packet looks to be about ten pages. Nothing fancy in terms of work, but you will require these pages to be printed out.

While a few sheets will be shared with other adventure, at least half the packet (relating to the story line) will be unique.

Now... you CAN replay mission boards either with included challenge variants or mix and matched with some sheets from other adventures.. but at the end of the day, story progress requires a user to print 7-10 pages per adventure.

So I wanted to ask "How much printing would drive you away from a solitaire RPG experience."

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Sun, 04/17/2016 - 18:05
#1
questccg
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FUNNY

I did not read your post before responding to lewpuls "function vs. cosmetics" thread...

McTeddy, you are probably one of the people who has sufficient Video Game design/coding skills to be able to MERGE an RPG and say an IPad (or Tablet PC integration).

As in my response to Dr. Pulsipher, my BET is that Table PC will go in the direction of "Downloadable Adventure Packs" for DM-ing adventures.

We've seem "Golemn Arcana's" microdot technology which is UNIQUE... But IMHO the KEY is Table PC Integration with "Adventure Packs" that allows all of the players "housekeeping" (statistics) and playing out the adventure with a "combat engine", etc.

Maybe the designer of such a system could LICENSE it to PNP Producers to get them AWAY from the PRINT and lead them to a DIGITAL revolution. As I said to the good Dr., my bet is someone will come out with such a system. And it will SHAKE up the RPG industry.

And if it is developed like a licensed technology (and not solely proprietary), this will mean a lot of people will be DESIGNING "Adventure Packs" compatible with such a FRAMEWORK.

As I was saying to Dr. P, I think the RPG is more PRIME for such an "evolution" over the TableTop industry - because adventures in RPGs are similar in terms of record keeping and data crunching.

Creating such an engine and then making the "Modules" sell-able will be the key. Maybe a giant like WOTC or FFG will do it FIRST, and if so, probably proprietary technology.

It would be awesome to see someone DEVELOP something that can be LICENSED at a FEE... To me that sounds like a "digital revolution" for the RPG industry.

(Last note, your idea of PNP packs seems like a DM Module from the RPG-realms - just my view...)

Update: I would checkout a Game Module such as those seen in the DragonLance Saga...

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Sun, 04/17/2016 - 18:25
#2
McTeddy
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I could, and it actually did

I could, and it actually did cross my mind.

But the paper format actually plays a pretty major role in the game both thematically and mechanically. I honestly think taking the App route will be a loss for the game.

Worse, it'll put me in competition with the wrong market. Video gamers have different expectations and I don't think it'd do me any favors to take that route.

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Sun, 04/17/2016 - 18:30
#3
questccg
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I was just presenting my thoughts...

I did not mean to imply that YOUR PNP game should be an APP...

I was just talking in "general terms".

Those old DM Game Modules could be fuel for anyone looking to develop an APP that allows for "dynamic adventure packs" for RPGs.

I'm just saying, IMHO that's what I think the FUTURE of RPGs is going to look like. Proprietary or not.

Note: I am also not saying it should be a one (1) person endeavor. It could be a OPEN SOURCE project with many contributors, allowing the engine to be developed much faster (as if it was proprietary). This kind of project would be something I would "invest" some of my free time.

Seeing an APP that could HELP DMs in storytelling that would be awesome. And IF the engine would allow for "personal touches" by the DM, like additional Events that can occur, etc.

Just some "scattered" ideas...

Note 2: The IDEA of having a STANDARD MODULE you BUY and ADD your own events to makes it more probable to be useful to DMs. I'm NOT saying that an adventure pack should start from ZERO (0). What I am suggesting is that adventure packs can be customized with DM specific Events that occur during the adventure, personalizing the game.

Instead of using an LEVEL Builder like in StarCraft, which is from scratch, I would think the FIRST step would be to PERSONALIZE an EXISTING "Adventure Pack" with CUSTOM EVENTS. So whatever artwork is used for the adventure would be managed by the PUBLISHERS of the "Digital Game Modules". And then once a DM buys such a Module, he can ADAPT it with his own side-stories which do NOT deter from the main goal of the Module.

So the first step is ADDING dynamic content to an EXISTING Module. And therefore PERSONALIZING it for the players according to the DMs desires.

This would mean that PUBLISHERS would make money on Designing and Publishing NEW modules. DMs could spend their time personalizing the experience further with sub-plots and storylines, to enrich the game. Much like DMs do today when they use Game Modules...

Note 3: I could picture using something like DOOMs WAD file for creating a archive with all the digital assets (Music, Artwork, Videos (maybe for high end Module production). Just conceptually - but bundle everything into one file... Just some other thoughts.

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Sun, 04/17/2016 - 19:18
#4
Tedthebug
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Re: app then my PnP response

I heard an interesting interview on a podcast (can't remember what one, sorry) saying the issue with the app/tabletop integration is maintaining currency across the OS landscape. Apparently quite a few people have issues supporting all the different android devices because some vendors customise their installation then don't bother updating them as they think people should buy a new phone every 12-18mths. I don't know how true this is though.

Regarding PnP, I'm only just getting started by using it to prototype my own stuff & test others. At this stage I'm really slow & unco at cutting straight lines & am saving for a new guillotine but if I was interested in the game & it had replay value then 10 pages isn't to much. You could also offer it on a print on demand site like the game crafter or others as an option so people can decide what they want.

It does also sound a bit like those old make your own adventure books I had as a kid that involved a bookmark that was your character stats & then you rolled d6 to make your stat rolls to see what page to turn to next (when necessary & not just a player decision). You used a paper & pencil to keep track of changing stats as you went, like health.

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Sun, 04/17/2016 - 19:36
#5
questccg
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Printing OK - Cutting... ugh!

Tedthebug wrote:
Apparently quite a few people have issues supporting all the different android devices because some vendors customize their installation then don't bother updating them as they think people should buy a new phone every 12-18 months. I don't know how true this is though.

Well I was specifically talking about "Tablet PC" or "IPad" Integration. Not Cellular Phones.

Can you picture a MAP where you see all the landscape (Hexes) and ZOOM IN on one City and the zoom goes into that city map! I can picture it - and it would be freaking awesome. And it could be like LEVELS, level 1 = Game Map, level 2 = A specific City, level 3 = A specific Building, etc. And things could be VISIBLE as you go and explore that part of the World...

And as far as PNP printing goes, IMHO ten (10) pages should be maximum. And if you need to CUT things, maybe like 3 - 4 pages would be the max. Personally I think the biggest turnoff of PNP is cutting everything.

Printing pages is easy... But you don't want too many pages. If part of it is reusable, even better (can use for replaying). The frustrating part is cutting pages of cards... That can be a major turnoff even IF you have like 2 or 3 pages.

Update: BTW having made attempts at a PNP game - not many people are interested in the "whole PNP-thing". I got very little feedback - people promising to download and play - never got results or responses. PNP in my opinion is a total waist of time.

Hamish put out a very nice "Fukushu" Ninja (or Samurai - not sure) PNP game and nobody even took a second glance. And to me the game looked interesting. Still next to nobody was interested.

Which makes me question the whole PNP thing.

Currently my impression of it is that it is a total waist of time. You take time to design downloadable content - and then nobody wants to download it... Anyways that's my experience with PNP.

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Sun, 04/17/2016 - 22:18
#6
ElKobold
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Mostly agree with what

Mostly agree with what questccg said about pnp. Very few people are willing to bother with it, or so it seems.

Personally I download PnPs to take a look at the way the components are designed and to get a better understanding how the game works.

So personally I'm very likely not to print the files after downloading, regardless of size.

That being said, there still are people who would do it, however few.
During the KS we did get some feedback on the PnP version, though it seems more people were downloading it to take a peek, rather than to try it out.

I believe we had 9 pages + board.

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Mon, 04/18/2016 - 00:43
#7
McTeddy
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questccg wrote: And as far as

questccg wrote:

And as far as PNP printing goes, IMHO ten (10) pages should be maximum. And if you need to CUT things, maybe like 3 - 4 pages would be the max.

This is exactly my concern. At 10 pages for a single adventure I can see trouble.

The good news is that there is no cutting... at least in the way you'd expect.

It takes alot of queues from tabletop RPGs, game books and one page solitaires. You need a character sheet, an adventure and a handful of dice.

Over time, the amount of materials will grow but it'll happen naturally through play and will make sense in context.

It's possible some counters or cards will be required, but I'm hoping to avoid it.

- - -

I appreciate the warnings on PnP and I definitely know what I'm up against. For the last year, I've been chatting with various premium PnP designers.

This is being done purely for the challenge of the PnP market. It was designed for that purpose and it's doing things that traditional tabletop games really can't do.

It's possible that a boxed set could be done but without the PnP I'd need to sacrifice certain thematic and mechanical aspects.

Yeah, this might be a fools dream but I do believe that PnP has potential to be something special.

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