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More on random elements

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questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011

Hi all,

Again this has to do with another *random* element in a Dungeon Crawl. Specifically this has to do with *rolling dice* or a movement stat. The argument is that *rolling dice* allows players to move quicker (if they roll high). The movement stat would be something like 6 for a warrior, 8 for a thief, 4 for a mage, etc. (according to the player's class). What else might be considered, it could take 3 points to make an attack, the remainder can be left for movement.

I kinda like the stat - but I also like the luck factor than rolling gives. The only thing that kinda sucks if when you roll 1 a couple turns in a row...

If anyone can find arguments for one or the other, it would be much appreciated.

Version 1.0: Dice rolling, you move according to the result. Random makes it possible to have favorable rolls that allow you to outpace the other players.

Version 2.0: A *Movement stat* that could for example require 3 points to attack and the remainder to move, or use an item such as a magical potion (1 point). Players with the higher stat will *always* move faster than other classes.

Lofwyr
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Joined: 02/16/2010
Theme

As I always try to tell folks. Theme dictates rules.

Ask yourself, is it realistic within the theme of your choosing, to have a character able to move very quickly in one turn and then uncharacteristically slow in the next. There is no connection or reasoning offered to explain this arbitrary fluctuation in movement.

An important factor when trying to keep players immersed is keeping rules intuitive. This is to say that rules should be what the player would anticipate they be.

The inclusion of a completely random element for movement only serves to break high level immersion and reinforce the fact that the players are NOT in a dungeon but instead playing a board game. The goal should always be to feed the imagination of the player and keep them involved.

E

questccg
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Lofwyr wrote:Ask yourself, is

Lofwyr wrote:
Ask yourself, is it realistic within the theme of your choosing, to have a character able to move very quickly in one turn and then uncharacteristically slow in the next. There is no connection or reasoning offered to explain this arbitrary fluctuation in movement.
...
The inclusion of a completely random element for movement only serves to break high level immersion and reinforce the fact that the players are NOT in a dungeon but instead playing a board game. The goal should always be to feed the imagination of the player and keep them involved.

Hmm... The only reason that *rolling the dice* is interesting is when players are *moving* about the dungeon they operate as a team - BUT they also compete against each other in winning Rewards/Treasures. And these are gained by moving to various checkpoints in the dungeon.

Otherwise thieves would always have the advantage because they have the most *action points* (due to high dexterity) and therefore the highest movement. But it is realistic - because a thief could move to the back of a monster and use his *Backstabbing* special skill (and double his damage that turn).

However I understand that "rolling the dice" has nothing to do with being in an actual dungeon! :)

Well it looks like I have removed *a couple* illogical uses of dice rolling (Random elements). Many thanks for your input.

MarkKreitler
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Joined: 11/12/2008
V 1.5

I like version 1.5: stats modified by die rolls -- but not in the way you think. :)

I've used a variation of the following system with some luck.

Start with some basic stats, for example:

Attack
Defend
Move

With base values:

THIEF
Attack: 3
Defend: 4
Move: 5

KNIGHT:
Attack: 4
Defend: 5
Move: 3

etc

Give players a single die roll at the start of their turn. Instead of numbers, the dice have symbols, such as:
Sword
Shield
Boot
Wand
Skull and crossbones (means 'failure')
Question mark (means 'wild' -- pick any other face as the result)

In my prototype, I found fewer than 4 dice feels boring, and more than 6 unwieldy, but your mileage may vary.

Finally, give each "class" a set of abilities:

CLERIC
Shield + Wand = "protection" spell: + 1 Defense
Wand + Wand = "heal" spell: restore 1 HP
...

THIEF
Boot + Sword (1 or more) = "backstab": + 1 to attack for each sword rolled
...

You get the idea.

Players roll once at the start of their turn and can allocate their dice as they like to activate any abilities for use during their turn.

This gives you the thrill of rolling the dice, but mediates the results to prevent too much randomness. It also adds a nice tactical decision that neither purely random rolls or purely deterministic stats delivers.

questccg
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Joined: 04/16/2011
Very very innovative!

MarkKreitler wrote:
I like version 1.5: stats modified by die rolls -- but not in the way you think. :)

I've used a variation of the following system with some luck.
...
Players roll once at the start of their turn and can allocate their dice as they like to activate any abilities for use during their turn.

This gives you the thrill of rolling the dice, but mediates the results to prevent too much randomness. It also adds a nice tactical decision that neither purely random rolls or purely deterministic stats delivers.

Hmm. I must admit that is a very attractive mechanic. Each class has 6 special skills as part of our design. So far we have not determine how they would get used. Your idea might be a good way of using them. I would have to think about it further... I have calculated that there are 10 possible distinct outcomes (using 2 dice). Having 6 skills means that it could be a realistic option... I need to think about it further.

N.B.: Using Skull as a valid option (Death instead of failure), there are 15 distinct outcomes.

voodoodog
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Joined: 07/02/2012
Works with many themes

I agree that it an innovative and very workable mechanic which could be applied to a wide variety of themes and scenarios.

MarkKreitler
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Joined: 11/12/2008
Quick addendum

questccg wrote:
I would have to think about it further... I have calculated that there are 10 possible distinct outcomes (using 2 dice). Having 6 skills means that it could be a realistic option... I need to think about it further.

N.B.: Using Skull as a valid option (Death instead of failure), there are 15 distinct outcomes.

If I understand your system, the roll of two dice would determine which skill, if any, players could activate on their turn. That's a neat mechanic in its own right, and may be the best fit for your game. On the other hand, if you let them roll 3 dice, they may then be able to choose from the combinations which skill to activate. This gives players another interesting choice to make on their turn.

Not sure if that's appropriate for your game, or if I've misunderstood your system. If so on either count, please ignore the post.

mindwarper10
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Joined: 06/13/2010
I have a game that I am

I have a game that I am working on that has a "movement system"
All characters have a minimum of 5 points, and certain facters raise it but it's always a multiple of 5.
moving a square requires an entire 5 points.
I didn't really want to use the Feet movement system of D&D...its far too unrealistic and doesnt make sense (Think of the size of the person it would take to make a five foot step...seriously... I have to jump to go five feet and still barely get that far...)
but think about using everything in 1 foot distances....so I came up with a movement system that uses points.
Using more than your max points reduces your total points for combat for a set duration, due to exhaustion.

I personally don't like none random real life things to be random in games, I know how fast I am, and know when I will become exhausted...I run...alot...alot alot...I like running...lol...I also have a farm, so I know working, and I know my percieved limits. I also know people can push themselves past what they believe their limits to be.

It makes more sense for faster people to move...faster..
It also makes sense that an overexerted person, or exhausted person may not be as fast as someone who is normally slower than them.

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