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Multiple actions per turn vs one action per turn

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jvallerand
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Joined: 10/12/2013

I like these kinds of discussions, and have tried to start one on the BGG forums, only to have it derailed as we know the internet tends to do. And so I thought that the more serious crowd of the BGDF could better appreciate a topic like this.

I was thinking of a question like "do you prefer 1 action/turn or X action/turn, and why?", and then thought that I could not answer such a question. Therefore, I'm going with the following, hoping we can get a more serious discussion going on:

When is it better to have multiple actions per turn, compared to only one action per turn?

And because I'm from the world of academia, let's define the terminology we're using:

When I say multiple actions per turn, I don't mean multiple phases (as in, say, Eminent Domain or Dominion), but that, before another player plays, you can take multiple actions, which could all be the same if you so wanted (like in, say, A Few Acres of Snow, Android Netrunner, or Pandemic), compared to games like Stone Age or Ticket To Ride, where before you can do something else (or the same thing again), someone else plays.

baberahamlincoln
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Thoughts

I've considered this in a few of my game designs.

I feel like multiple actions per turns is a good fit when you want players to be able to have a building / cumulative effect between their actions, or something of a pairing of actions for greater effect. I feel like allowing multiple actions works better when the actions are smaller, and do not take too much to determine the outcomes of, as multiple actions can also add to turn length, and may introduce complexities regarding tracking.

In one of my current prototypes, I'm playing around with actions. In the original version, there were basically phases where all players were allowed to act, with each player taking turns taking action a, then taking turns taking action b, and so on. This seemed like more hassle than it was worth, as the phases needed to be called out / announced, but often no one was doing anything. The maintenance and tracking of the turns sometimes took longer than some of the turns themselves.

I'm moving this towards a model where each player chooses an action during their turn, and each player gets two turns within a given round (as the end of the round has an upkeep component). They can use their action to perform the same thing or different things. I'm deciding to test this model instead of a straight "take two actions per turn" model, as I want players to be able to see what each other are doing, and then be able to react in some way. Oh, that player just bought a bunch of X resources, I might want to do the same before they are all gone.

ruy343
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Joined: 07/03/2013
Hey, I've been trying that too!

I've recently been working on a strategy game called Star Command, where each player gets to take three actions per round, but in each round, players take turns taking their actions. They place one marker on the sector where action is happening to indicate their action and that's it. Play continues around the circle until all players have taken their first action, after which the cycle starts over. After 3 cycles, everyone can reclaim their markers and gain resource bonuses for what they've captured, etc.

What's neat about this system is that it allows you to have less downtime, even though it's a serious strategy game. However, it also means that your plans are more easily foiled, and my marker system is apparently confusing sometimes. But I like it because it keeps things moving, rather than having to wait for a player who takes forever because they want to plan every element of their turn.

However, actions-based turns aren't bad either when you're playing a shorter or cooperative game, because a little downtime doesn't kill anyone if it's 45 minutes. If the game is two hours, maybe you should consider moving the turns along a little faster.

Pure Stats
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Multiple Actions

I think in a game setting the more choices you give a player including actions makes the game more enjoyable and creates more ownership of the players of the game. this can only be a good thing.

Corsaire
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I think you have to balance

I think you have to balance an individual turn length against a feeling of progress. If it takes six actions to get a tangible result, then spreading it over many turns feels a bit of drudgery. However, if an action has a big game effect, it alienates the non-active players without being able to respond.

Other considerations:
Round events... if there are events at the end of a round, then the size of the action pool needs to scale to the game effect or players are going to feel knocked about rather than strategic.

Delightfully agonizing decisions... multiple actions means that one build-to is getting extra actions and making the decision of when to commit resources to create more actions versus making direct game effecting actions are good sorts of decisions to have.

Dan Felder
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I'm pretty sure it depends on

I'm pretty sure it depends on the game. However, I think that usually there should only be one *move* a turn. Defining the term...

A Move in this context is the overall strategic action you take.

Moves can, in this context, be built up up multiple actions. In Pandemic, is it really useful to think about using 4 separate actions to move 3 spaces and then build a research station at a crucial spot? The player doesn't make every action as an individual decision, the decision is to walk to the crucial spot and build a research station there. While these are separate 'actions', they work together to support one overarching goal for the turn.

X3M
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I have been experimenting

I have been experimenting with this as well.

Bottom lines (summary):
- Multiple Actions need to be balanced on the game.
- The game mechanics need to be balanced in turn on the Multiple Actions.

---It looks like that it depends a lot on the game mechanics too.---
So mine are completely adapted to the game that I am working on.

Here is my concept (please feel free to comment):

My very first version allowed all units to take 1 action each round, movement or attack. This created complete chaos and was quickly discarded. I also don't know of games that do use this. Think of it like having all chess pieces do 1 thing each round.

I wanted balance between attacks and movement.
Thus a limit was needed in actions, I decided on 6.
Further more I wanted players to take actions whenever they wanted. Meaning:
1 player is in turn forced playing at least 1 action point. Then other players can interfere while paying action points as well, but those are not forced.
So, a "free" play for all players, any time.

I reduced the amount of actions to 6 / Round.
The 6 is upgradable by various means. But you cannot spend actions on increasing this. Buildings things like an "Action Increaser" can be done at the end of a Round.
Other means are with Event Cards. But those are Random, and have Random effects.

I am not sure about these rules yet...

The main action costs for each player are:
- 1 Action Point (AP) for movement.
- 1 AP for an attack.
- No movement or an attack while the player is in turn, results in 1 AP discarded for that Round.
- 1 AP for defending (not forced).
- 1 AP for moving "away" with a reduced damage effect (not forced).
- 1 AP for intercepting a moving player with a reduced damage effect for the interceptor (only one squad/player).
- 2 APs for moving and attacking with a reduced damage effect for both players. (Comparable with an Assault, which costs 1 AP + the Event Card)
- 2 APs for defending and moving with "an extra" reduced damage effect for both players.
- If the Squad already paid an APs, then the next one costs: what has been paid + what has to be paid = the total AP costs.

So players now have choices in how to spend their AP. And they are "free" to decide when and how. There are still random turns of actions per round.

Having these rules also allows players to do attacks which are normally impossible to succeed. However, that player simply does less that round. So it has to be a specific situation.

---Thus the game needs to be adapted by having multiple actions in turn.---
And often, new situations arise and need to be monitored...
New rules need to be added too, to keep things going.

Since normal combat allows short ranged to fire first. An Assault with short ranged units can be very effective. However, if the victim decides to defend. He/she might also decide to intercept instead. Which can often be a more useful approach.

When attacking moving players. You start looking at each region where they move though. And you deal with it in that order. Meaning, longer ranged units might fire before your short ranged units.

When both players move, [attacker and victim]. The Attacker moves first. So the victim deals with each region where the attacker move through, first. Once the attacker arrives. Then victim will move away. Where the attacker deals with each region, where through the victim moves. Mostly resulting in firing all projectiles at the first region.
However, this way one might suggest:
That there is no extra reduced effect for both players. But normally there is already a one time reduction if the defender moves away if the attacker stands still or vice versa. That is why the reduction is done twice when both players move. Just for balance.
The second suggestion that I discard is:
Having both players move at the same time and keeping the distance the same. This will be to complex. And could result in having no combat at all.
Fast units targeted by long range (speed/Range = 7) already have a hit chance of only 28%. With both players moving, it is only 8%. Still enough to kill one or two units though. But this 8% can be compared with keeping the distance. It is as if the defending player thinks: damn, need to move, I am under fire.

Range of flying projectiles are compared with the Speed of targeted moving units. Lowest counts and is a reduction with 5/6th with each dice used. Speed/Range = 7 means having to roll 7 dice for each projectile targeted at this unit.

Bottom lines (summary):
- Multiple Actions need to be balanced on the game.
- The game mechanics need to be balanced in turn on the Multiple Actions.

ReneWiersma
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I think it is a good idea to

I think it is a good idea to try to reduce the number of actions a player can perform before another player gets to interact down to the bare minimum.

One very important reason for this is to reduce the downtime per player. Time per player is reduced to the minimum and the turn comes back to you quickly.

A side effect of this is that it increases the strategic "fuzziness" of the game, meaning you can't exactly calculate the outcome of your actions, because the state of the game will have been altered by other players before you get the chance to act again. This is usually a good thing, as it alleviates analysis-paralysis: because you can't calculate the "perfect" move, you have to act more on gut feeling and intuition, which usually leads to a more satisfying gaming experience.

To avoid the "drudgery" mentioned, it is important that each single action packs a punch, it has to mean something in the context of the game. If it doesn't think about combining actions, or at least make sure actions that are not that important go by really quick (like taking cards in Ticket to Ride).

larienna
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You might want to read one of

You might want to read one of my article:

http://bgd.lariennalibrary.com/index.php?n=DesignArticle.Article-ActionS...

That compares the difference between multiplying actions vs making proportional actions.

X3M
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I have read your article. But

I have read your article. But I can't get new idea's out of it.

In my game, a players empire grows as well. The number of forces grow too. At first, players can spend all AP on 1 or 2 squads. But eventually 6 is the max. Unless...

And here are the 5 possible ways that I can think about:
1- The best way to have more Actions in a turn is to spend the gathered Event Cards in a good way. Even idle players can save these up. The deck might even get starvation. A monopoly is allowed and this is a strategy on itself. There can be a temporary all out for a certain player. Where even 30 AP can be spend, while others watch and horror.
2- The second way is to have Communications Centre, which purpose is only to increase Action points within a certain range. But the mechanic has proven to be too chaotic. And needs many adjustments. Perhaps removing Range. But then I have an overkill of choices of design. However, by design, one region of Communications Centre would allow about half a region taking an extra action.
3- I do not have upgrades/research. And will not add these only for getting more AP.
4- A tertiary way would be using higher density forces.
(Starcraft Air, is stacked in the same way)
This way, 1 AP would be twice or three times as effective as spend on normal squads.
5- Perhaps letting players gain XP too. And allowing them to gain levels. Player A is now a level 4 while player B, who did notching, is only level 0. Player A can spend 10 AP compared to player B with only 6. The difficulty with this is that an empire does not necessarily has to grow. Thus one player could get 1 squad to be super effective.

For a game that represents RTS in many ways, what else can you suggest?
Could you comment on one of the 5 above?
Players in RTS have only a certain APM= Actions Per Minute, rather depending on skill than on upgrades. To keep the board game fair, this needs to stay as constant as possible. You cannot spend more AP with skill, unless you count number 5 in the list above as such a way.

larienna
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It reminds me of Conflict

It reminds me of Conflict where you had the option to move all units or 3 units.

Move all unit could be dealy to the opposing player, while move 3 units gave time to your opponent to react, but you could only resolve 1 front at a time. In a BG, you need a way to keep track of played units to use the move all units mode.

An idea I had for a similar game is that you activate units around a commander. When yo move a commander, all units around also moves. The more units, larger battlefield, the more commanders you have to compensate. Killing an ennemy commander would hinder your opponent.

Does the nb of unit increases or reduces as the game progress?

Similar to the commander rule, you could get for example 1 action for each 8 units in play. So the bigger your army, the more actions you get.

Heroscape has this 3 action system, but where the same units could be played multiple times. It could be nastly, but it's similar to the move 3 units.

Another idea of mine was to have a nb of action for air, ground and sea units. So first players moves air, then they move ground, then they move sea.

Even if the move X units seems unrealistic because everything happens on the same time, it creates an interesting dynamic of where does the player want to put some presure.

You might put moves on a flank A, but I value so much flank B, than by attacking that flank B it forces you to spend moves from flank A to B.

Maybe there is anotehr twist that you could find to this mechanic.

Masacroso
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Hi. From my point of view it

Hi. From my point of view it depends (one or more moves by a turn) of the consecuences to the general game.

I want to say something like:
-game becomes deeper?
-game becomes more human-friendly or more computer-friendly? (and this is a very deep and wide question)
-game becomes more snowlballer or less? (snowball = one turn have a bigger/faster impact on the result of the game)
-match time becomes longer or shorter?
-game life becomes shorter or larger? (solvability)

I think the results of these questions depends of the mechanics of the game. The only way to understand all of this is practice imo, trying the same game changing some rule about the amounts of moves per turn of a player to see the impact.

P.D.: sry for my english :p

RyanRay
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Joined: 03/27/2014
Analysis Paralysis (AP)

The big risk with adding multiple action options is Analysis Paralysis (AP).

In games like Pandemic or Forbidden Desert, you get 4 actions, but it's usually pretty obvious what the best action is since there's always an element of "you could lose at any moment".

In games like Catan or Risk, however, where you essentially have unlimited things to do on your turn, there are always players who take FOREVER trying to figure out what to do because there are so many options.

Ticket to Ride is a good example someone mentioned because you essentially have two options - draw, or place trains - and that's it. Most of the thinking actually happens during other players' turns. This system of having just one action helps keeps things rolling, but also serves the game's mechanics by not allowing someone to totally screw other players by saving a few sets and then play them all at once, possibly blocking off certain paths permanently.

jwarrend
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Assuming we're talking about

Assuming we're talking about a medium to heavy strategy game, where there are a number of actions to choose from and the actions are consequential, chaining multiple actions together is desirable but is also likely to lead to analysis downtime.

I've done two things that work pretty well to counteract this, both in the same game! (at different development stages)

The first is to allow players multiple actions per turn, but have them plan their turns simultaneously. There will still be some time required for analysis, but as it occurs simultaneously for all players, there's no down time, /as long as/ the resolution of the actions is quick.

The second is to allow multiple actions, but have actions clustered together in combos -- e.g. you choose action card which say things like "Move and Attack", "Move and Build", "Build and Settle", etc, so if there are X actions, there aren't X(X-1) possible two-action turns to choose from, but only as many as the number of cards. And, you can cluster the actions that most logically go together (or separate them, if you want to make the game harder for the players).

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