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Non-collectable yet customizable card game

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Mon, 03/12/2012 - 08:07
Crensh3000ad
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Hello there,

I'm musing about a card game format, in which a player purchases a complete set-starting pool of cards to play with - not unlike your starting card pool in Warhammer, Call of Cthulhu and Game of Thrones LCGs. I am talking about approximately 350-500 cards or so, the equivalent of 1 or 1 1/2 booster/starter displays, speaking the classic CCG language.

The entire game can then be played

--> with an instant variant = the players simply shuffle their shared cardpool deck and can commence play immediately, withour any deck construction. In order to be playable, such a shared deck must include a certain minimum amount of instants, artifacts, resources, locations and action cards, for example.

--> with two customized, constructed decks each player makes from their own pool of cards (your standard CCG/LCG approach). One players gets the Rebels / red Magic colour, while the other player chooses the Empire / black Magic colour.

I see it as a flexible approach to the game itself, since it reduces the possible fuss with building/designing a strong competitive / a weak fun-themed deck. Those keen on deck-building can do so at will, those keen on immediate playing (duel/multiplayer) can also do so, if desired.

In the past, community deck-oriented card games have done poorly, the Super Nova CCG and Gangland! quickly diminished into the unknown. On the other hand, the Middle-Earth ARDA Community Deck Variant shines with uncomplicated, non-competetive and relaxed game play which offers plenty of theme and is overly popular among the game's numerous fans - despite MECCG's defunct state.

What do you think about it ? Any comments are highly appreciated.

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Mon, 03/12/2012 - 12:14
#1
Cogentesque
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This sounds almost exactly

This sounds almost exactly like Dominon's model man?

The game comes with a LOT (see: all that is required to play) of cards for the game. During a play through, you choose to use a certain selection of cards - never all of them.

So yeah, a different mechanic but a release model exactly like dominion right?

In which case, my answer would be "Hell yes that would work" :)

What MIGHT be something interesting that you could play around with is releasing two versions of the game. One with all of the cards required to play the base, fun game - then a second "mega collectors edition" that has rediculuous amounts of cards that make up the rest of the game (and you must still ony choose SOME to play with, can never play with all) that would sell for a rediculous price.

So kind of like "Base Game" or "Ultra edition with all expansions" - that might 1. be cool, 2. net you cash, 3. Cater for the game afficionadoes without pissing off the light players

:)

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Sun, 03/18/2012 - 15:38
#2
SlyBlu7
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The game that I've been

The game that I've been playing around with works on the same principle, the starter box comes with 1 deck for each of the players, numbering around 60-70 cards. Players can have up to 3 duplicates of each card. The starter box has 2:1 sets of the cards. Once players have "picked a deck" from the starter (imagine M:TG, you play Red, Blue, White, etc) they can then buy the expansion pack to get the other half of the collection with a 1:2:3 ratio in it, completing the Starter duplicates and adding a new set.

In the future, expansions will either be the same 2:1 or 3:2:1 set up with a mirrored booster available, or a full set for a single deck type. Other expansions will include new events and monster decks, new loot cards, or entire new "starter decks" for a different setting.

I've been told that boxing too many cards into a single release will cause the price of your printing runs to SKYROCKET, while also increasing the price of any related shipping (because the box is heavier). Plus, if you give them everything at once, what do you have to offer later? I know you don't want to make it collectible, but as soon as you offer an expansion set of new cards, that's what it becomes anyways. I think that the major difference is that people *know* what they're getting in this method, and are not encouraged to trade, which is the usual hallmark of TCG/CCG titles.

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Mon, 03/19/2012 - 05:46
#3
Crensh3000ad
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Hello SlyBlu,

I like your packaging concept. Could you please elaborate on that a little bit ? What does 3:2:1 stand for ? How many cards does your base set include ?

"I've been told that boxing too many cards into a single release will cause the price of your printing runs to SKYROCKET, while also increasing the price of any related shipping (because the box is heavier)"

Yes, that makes sense. My question here would be: Dominion and other deck-builders like Thunderstone's base set and/or Dragonspire come with 500-450+ cards in them and still stick to a maximum of 20-30 Euro here in Germany. Of course, bulky packages with 1000 cards in them weigh a good lot . On the other hand, only these large portions cause trouble, not the shipment of a single booster display or so - that would be the same weight as your standard economy board game like Agricola or Dungeon Lords with lots of tokens, counters, figures and a heavy gaming board.

"Plus, if you give them everything at once, what do you have to offer later?"

I don't see that aspect as a problem at all. Again, if I look at Dominion with its pretty simple 6-pages-rules and its gazillions of expansions, it's not a big deal to come up with some creative addition that will expand the original game.

I am not sure...the Game of Thrones LCG Core Set from FFG has enough cards for 4 players. How many cards does it include ?

"I think that the major difference is that people *know* what they're getting in this method, and are not encouraged to trade, which is the usual hallmark of TCG/CCG titles."

Yes, that is true. The trading stuff always ends up in a spiral of "who has the most money to spend on the game?".
At this moment, if I would be an active magic player, I cannot think of a reason not to buy specific M:tG or Pokemon cards on eBay or in online shops. Why waste my money on booster packs of unknown content while I want to have a certain card or a set of it for my deck? What do I do with all these worthless bad rares or whole booster packs that contain the same boring common cards ? Yes, there is an exciting gambling element, when I rip apart a new booster hoping for that ultra-mega-rare card that no other kid has yet.
But I still would exchange that exciting moment for the solid feeling that I get with

a.) buying stuff that I want to buy, not a pig in a poke
b.) in a quantity that is completely sufficient for the game's deckbuilding aspects

The way I see it, most gamers are attracted to a solid game design and a reasonable price/content-ratio, not holofoil, chase or ultra-rare cards/other collector's gimmicks.

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Sat, 03/31/2012 - 21:46
#4
Kevinct
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I like this idea!

One of the factors that have led to the abandonment of various tcgs is the money factor. As a game begins to expand and new sets with more powerful cards are released, many previously good "staple" cards become unplayable. In order for a given player to compete with others he must have a significant amount of disposable cash to attain the new staples in each block/set etc.

This has significant detrimental effects on the game as a whole. It knocks players out of the game because they don't feel they are being rewarded for buying each set because they are obsolete so quickly. Any given match between players will always favor those with the most cash. And finally it means that the company selling the product must make each set more and more powerful or players will see no reason to purchase more cards.

I like your idea because it will level the playing field in terms of financial investment to the game. My suggestion is that you reward players for being faithful to your game from the beginning. What I mean by this is that you need to find a way to make earlier sets matter later on. This could take a lot of planning on your part but I guarantee it will pay off! If you intend to make any amount of money back from your game you need to give players a good reason to expand their collection. Don't simply refurbish card ideas or make more and more powerful creatures. Try to find ways to use previously created cards in new and interesting ways.

Just my input, hope this helps! :)

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Sun, 04/01/2012 - 15:36
#5
SlyBlu7
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Sorry I didn't see your post on the 19th

I don't know if this will still help you, but anyways, I can elaborate a bit on my idea:

The starter box (as I envision it so far) comes with 4 "player decks", one for each class in the box. There is also a Loot deck, Encounter deck, and a Monster deck, which are shared by all players (this is a cooperative game). The player decks are each somewhere between 60-70 cards. The cards represent the abilities available to you as your player levels up, from level 1, to level 10. You are allowed 3 copies of each card in your deck. My plan was to have roughly 4 powers available at each level. Therefore, my initial release would look like this:

Powers - Starter Box
3 copies of card "A"
2 copies of card "B"
1 copy of card "C"

Powers - Class Expansion
1 copy of card "B"
2 copies of card "C"
3 copies of card "D" (only available in the expansion)

In this way, players who only buy the starter box have a full deck and can play the game right out of the box. They also have a few "teasers" of what is included in the expansion. If they want to fill out the 3-card limit (and thus increase their chances to draw those different cards) they would buy the expansion.
Meanwhile, players who want to have more than the original 4 starting classes (2 fighters in the party, for example) could simply buy the expansion rather than buying a whole new game just to copy 1 class.

The basic ship would include about 240 "player" cards, and then the 3 Monster, Loot, and Encounter decks. Altogether I'm aiming for a maximum of 350 cards in the starter, with most of the difference going to Loot and Monsters (monsters rotate, but I want a nice pyramid of low-mid-high level opponents).
This is a big difference from the 500 card sets for games like Dominion and Thunderstone. Part of this owes to me giving them a complete deck rather than forcing them to search through a stack to build a deck, but most of it owes to the fact that I'm not giving them the ability to customize the game right out of box. They get a deck for each class. That's it. You can play it that way, or buy the expansions (the first wave of class expansions will be offered alongside the initial release, as well as a "mega collectors edition box" that will include the 4 class expansions as well as a few extra 'special' monsters and loot.

To Kevinct's point, my expansions will not offer more powerful cards. Firstly, the game is cooperative, so there's no problem if your character deck is more powerful than mine - thanks for the help mate. Secondly, most expansions will offer completely new classes, who exist in a vacuum entirely separate from their starter-box counterparts. You can play the starterbox Warrior, or you can buy the expansion for the Knight class (which will probably include 108 cards, 3 copies for 4 powers at 9 levels). Other expansions will offer new settings (100 cards, probably 30 Monsters, 50 new loot, and 20 encounters). Of course, all the expansions are compatible, so you can have a Knight fighting alongside starter classes, against Monsters from the Core game, and Loot from the expansion setting. See how the game quickly becomes customizable?

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