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Tabletop Version of Nintendo's Super Smash Bros.

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Kamon
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Joined: 08/04/2009

Hello!

First off I'd like to being by stating that I am not, in any way, attempting to legitimately create a miniatures game of Nintendo's Super Smash Bros. to pitch to publishers (I can't even begin to imagine the legal hurdles one would have to jump through to make that idea a reality).

Instead, what I would like to do is to create a game I can play with my close friends who also happen to be huge Super Smash Bros. fans. I feel as if the game would function the best as a tabletop miniatures game similar to Star Wars Miniatures or HeroClix.

Now, the biggest problem or headache with getting this thing to work is the most important part of the game; defeating your opponent's characters. Traditionally, characters/units begin games with a certain amount of health that is reduced from the starting amount to zero to signify the character being defeated. That is not going to be the case with this game. Just like the video game, characters will start with a damage percentage of zero and will be dealt damage over the course of the game.

For those who aren't familiar (I'm truly, truly sorry) with how Super Smash Bros. is played, each player chooses a character from a list of available options and attempts to knock the opponent off of the game stage. This is fundamentally different than having a health bar and having it reduced to zero. The greater the damage a character has taken, the easier it is to knock that character off stage and into the KO'd zone.

How to translate this into a tabletop miniatures game:
The best idea I have is to create a "Damage Chart" that specifically states how far a character will be knocked away at each damage percentage.

What the chart looks like:
01-10% = 0
11-20% = 1
21-30% = 2
31-40% = 3
41-50% = 4
51-60% = 5
61-70% = 6
71-80% = 7
81-90% = 8
91-100% = 9
and on and on and on

This means if I control a character and my opponent successfully hits me, I would do three things:
1. Increase the amount of damage my character has taken.
2. Look at this chart and determine how many squares my character should be knocked away.
3. Subtract squares according to my character's weight.

Weight of Characters:
The video game assigns characters one of three possible weights; Light, Medium, and Heavy (I believe this terminology is correct. If not, hopefully you understand what I'm saying).

Light: -0
Medium: -1
Heavy: -2

This means that if I control a character with a damage of 85%, and I read the chart above, my character should be knocked back a total of 8 squares. If this character is Light, it would be knocked back the full amount of squares. Medium weight would reduce this to 7 and Heavy would reduce this to 6.

..............................................................................................................................................................

Does anyone think this could be done? I'm just wanting to create something for me and my friends to enjoy playing, but still be mechanically sound, as we are (or once were) highly competitive players of trading card games (Yugioh, Magic, VS System, WoW, etc.). The functionality and mechanics of the game will need to be quite solid in order for us to enjoy playing it.

Procylon
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Joined: 06/27/2012
I like it. I would make it

I like it.

I would make it so that each character has a small deck of cards that represent their skills, perhaps with at least 2 modes you can use at the start:

1. Cool-down based: Skills Cards could all be accessible from the start with a cool-down so that players can't just spam the same ability over and over. Perhaps a 3 move cool-down which would effectively let you do your jumps and aerial moves to get back to solid ground.

2. Draw based: Represents the randomness most players experience when trying to make it back to the board or attack other players.

You could then have a second deck of cards that would effectively be your randomized item drops. You could toss some kind of token on the board, and the first person to get to it draws from the item deck.

Kamon
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Joined: 08/04/2009
Thanks for the reply! What

Thanks for the reply!

What we're wanting to stay away from is having to use decks of cards to represent character moves, attacks, and abilities. We'd like the character cards to contain every playable option. However, I really like your idea of having a "cooldown" restriction on certain abilities to prevent the over-use of them and to introduce more thinking in the game.

Procylon
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Joined: 06/27/2012
So more Magic style then?

So more Magic style then? That sounds good. You might still consider making each character have a set of skills that is themed for that character, and then allow mixing and matching beyond that. You could go all League of Legends with the different fighters releasing packs of new champs + their abilities.

You could also have packs that represent new arenas and whatever comes with them. How you might manage such levels is probably the hardest thing to design.

let-off studios
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Size vs. Size

You already have modifiers based on a character's size. Will attacks also have modifiers?

For example, if a Heavy character hits a Light character, does the target suffer more knockback, regardless of their current health level? Does being a Light character prevent some or all knockback damage against Heavy characters, depending on the condition of the Heavy character?

Going with your card idea (and with the limited knowledge and play experience I have with SSB on my old N64 I think), could you have some weapons that cause variable damage and/or knockback, or damage INSTEAD of knockback (and vice versa)? I imagine a huge hammer, for example, that causes damage + knockback against Medium and Heavy characters, but only causes damage against Light characters, since it's more like squashing a bug than smacking someone baseball-bat-style.

Please share your thoughts. Best of success with your game. :)

Toa Lewa
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Joined: 10/31/2013
Simultaneous Action

Sounds interesting. I am a huge fan of Super Smash Bros (Melee specifically). The most difficult thing I forsee is simulating performing actions at the same time. Whatever you do, I would not suggest making it a turn based game. If the game is turn based, the game would really bog down and not be as intense as the real Super Smash Bros.

Maybe you could do something like this. Each match could be broken up into rounds. During each round, each player plays a secret action. When everyone has played their action, the action tokens are flipped, and the actions are resolved in order from slowest to fastest. For example, let's say Capt Falcon and Pichu are fighting. Pichu is directly in front of Capt Falcon. Each player plays their action tokens and flip them over. Pichu's attack is thunder jolt (b button) and Capt Falcon's is Falcon Punch (b button). Pichu's attack, being faster, hits Captain Falcon first and interferes with his attack.

I would also utilize some recovery mechanic. In Super Smash Bros, when a player gets hurt in the air and lands on the ground, there is a temporary period where the character cannot move. When this happens, the player could lose a turn before being able to attack. This could make players vulnerable to a charge attack such as Falcon Punch or Roy's sword attack.

Kamon
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Procylon wrote:So more Magic

Procylon wrote:
So more Magic style then? That sounds good. You might still consider making each character have a set of skills that is themed for that character, and then allow mixing and matching beyond that. You could go all League of Legends with the different fighters releasing packs of new champs + their abilities.

You could also have packs that represent new arenas and whatever comes with them. How you might manage such levels is probably the hardest thing to design.

That's pretty interesting. I hadn't thought of mixing and matching additional abilities beyond what would be printed on the Combatant card. I like that idea.

What do you mean by "packs that represent new arenas"?

Kamon
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let-off studios wrote:You

let-off studios wrote:
You already have modifiers based on a character's size. Will attacks also have modifiers?

For example, if a Heavy character hits a Light character, does the target suffer more knockback, regardless of their current health level? Does being a Light character prevent some or all knockback damage against Heavy characters, depending on the condition of the Heavy character?

Going with your card idea (and with the limited knowledge and play experience I have with SSB on my old N64 I think), could you have some weapons that cause variable damage and/or knockback, or damage INSTEAD of knockback (and vice versa)? I imagine a huge hammer, for example, that causes damage + knockback against Medium and Heavy characters, but only causes damage against Light characters, since it's more like squashing a bug than smacking someone baseball-bat-style.

Please share your thoughts. Best of success with your game. :)

I believe all damage is dealt as the same percentage in the video game. The only difference is a Combatant's weight which would determine how far that attack would knock back the defender (I could be wrong on this). However, I suppose some attacks and abilities could be "special" in that the damage percentage dealt could be modified based on certain conditions such as weight, distance, type of attack, game the Combatant originates from, movement, current damage percentages, etc.

I basically can't wait to begin toying around with Item card effects. There are so many Items to choose from, as all I'd have to do is look up every item used in the game and generate an appropriate effect for it that would translate into the tabletop game. I could also look at other Items in video games that were not used in the Super Smash Bros. series.

Kamon
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Joined: 08/04/2009
Toa Lewa wrote:Sounds

Toa Lewa wrote:
Sounds interesting. I am a huge fan of Super Smash Bros (Melee specifically). The most difficult thing I forsee is simulating performing actions at the same time. Whatever you do, I would not suggest making it a turn based game. If the game is turn based, the game would really bog down and not be as intense as the real Super Smash Bros.

Maybe you could do something like this. Each match could be broken up into rounds. During each round, each player plays a secret action. When everyone has played their action, the action tokens are flipped, and the actions are resolved in order from slowest to fastest. For example, let's say Capt Falcon and Pichu are fighting. Pichu is directly in front of Capt Falcon. Each player plays their action tokens and flip them over. Pichu's attack is thunder jolt (b button) and Capt Falcon's is Falcon Punch (b button). Pichu's attack, being faster, hits Captain Falcon first and interferes with his attack.

I would also utilize some recovery mechanic. In Super Smash Bros, when a player gets hurt in the air and lands on the ground, there is a temporary period where the character cannot move. When this happens, the player could lose a turn before being able to attack. This could make players vulnerable to a charge attack such as Falcon Punch or Roy's sword attack.

'Glad to see another Melee fan (I can't stand Brawl). The idea I had for activating Combatants is giving them a Speed value. Each "round" the Combatants would activate in the order of their Speed from the highest value to the lowest (now that I think about it, it would be cool to have Items that reduce Speed while equipped and other effects that modify an opponent's Speed).

Where would the secret actions come from? Would they be a deck of cards I have to draw from each round?

Here's our current idea of Recovery: The Recovery stat we were going to use would be printed on each Combatant's card. If Pikachu is hit with an attack at 110% Damage, the above Damage Chart would tell me that Pikachu would get knocked back a total of 10 squares before applying deductions. If Pikachu has a Medium weight, the total knock back would be reduced to 9 (-1 for Medium Combatants). Say Pikachu has "Recovery: 4+" on his Combatant card. The "+" on the stat indicates that a D6 would be rolled to add to Pikachu's total Recovery when knocked off of the stage. If I roll a 5 on the D6, I would add this result to the 4 and get a total Recovery of 9 for this attack. Since the knock back was reduced to 9 from Pikachu's weight, and the Recovery total is 9, Pikachu would return to the Stage successfully without being KO'd.

Thoughts on this?

Kamon
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Joined: 08/04/2009
Now that I think about it,

Now that I think about it, Character activations should probably pass back and forth, one at a time, between players until all Characters have been used each round.

Procylon
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Joined: 06/27/2012
Some arenas in Smash Brothers

Some arenas in Smash Brothers behave in wildly different ways. If you can figure out a way to represent that on a board or through cards(such as events that make terrain fall away and whatnot), then you could expand the game with a new arena(s) and characters in one box or in a pack.

Quote:
Maybe you could do something like this. Each match could be broken up into rounds. During each round, each player plays a secret action.

I don't think this would work very well when you factor in movement because too many effects would whiff in the air.

Better to have a MtG type system with abilities that could be played on any turn(basic attacks, jump moves, etc), and then abilities that could only be played on your turn(Charge up attacks)

Quote:
I believe all damage is dealt as the same percentage in the video game.

Maybe it was in the N64 version(I can't remember), but the latest versions I played damage depended on the skill. Easiest reference would be Samus' charge up blast.

Quote:
Here's our current idea of Recovery: The Recovery stat we were going to use would be printed on each Combatant's card. If Pikachu is hit with an attack at 110% Damage, the above Damage Chart would tell me that Pikachu would get knocked back a total of 10 squares before applying deductions. If Pikachu has a Medium weight, the total knock back would be reduced to 9 (-1 for Medium Combatants). Say Pikachu has "Recovery: 4+" on his Combatant card. The "+" on the stat indicates that a D6 would be rolled to add to Pikachu's total Recovery when knocked off of the stage. If I roll a 5 on the D6, I would add this result to the 4 and get a total Recovery of 9 for this attack. Since the knock back was reduced to 9 from Pikachu's weight, and the Recovery total is 9, Pikachu would return to the Stage successfully without being KO'd.

Thoughts on this?

Not sure if I would use dice on the return-to-board mechanic. I think too many people would roll poorly and basically die on an otherwise recoverable hit. Your characters should have the standard jump + double jump + aerial move(I think that was generally all you had) found in the game. They get knocked 10 spaces off the board, the jump for say X, double jump for Y more, and use their aerial move for whatever range/ability that move has. Each of those 3 moves could have a cooldown that only resets when the player touches the board or some other physical object. I have had games where another guy gets thrown in my direction and I use him as a stepping stone to get back on land, which is usually pretty epic.

Quote:
Now that I think about it, Character activations should probably pass back and forth, one at a time, between players until all Characters have been used each round.

Turned based combat will definitely slow things down, so it is something you will have to consider designing around. Ways to make players take their actions quickly and whatnot.

You may have to take into account that the last player to go may get ganged up on which is why I would suggest some instant type abilities that he can perform on his turn to defend himself, or otherwise inject himself into a battle happening between other players.

Kamon
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Joined: 08/04/2009
What exactly is being

What exactly is being suggested when you say I should use something similar to MtG?

Procylon
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Instant and Sorcery. Each

Instant and Sorcery. Each player has abilities that can either be played on their turn, or on anyone's turn.

Quick abilities, basic attacks, etc could be used at any time while slower abilities, charge-up attacks, etc could only be used on their turn.

The only problem you might have is if you use a cooldown system then other players will know what abilities you have that are ready to go. Not that they don't know this in the video game, but the faster pace doesn't let them think about this as much as in a turn-based game.

Using a draw based system would allow you to keep information hidden and therefore surprise your enemies with certain moves, but you lose some ability to handle skills like the video game does.

Given how important jumping and movement is in the game, you might keep the 3 jump moves on the board where you can use cooldowns, while the rest of your abilities are drawn each turn.

Kamon
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Procylon wrote:Instant and

Procylon wrote:
Instant and Sorcery. Each player has abilities that can either be played on their turn, or on anyone's turn.

Quick abilities, basic attacks, etc could be used at any time while slower abilities, charge-up attacks, etc could only be used on their turn.

The only problem you might have is if you use a cooldown system then other players will know what abilities you have that are ready to go. Not that they don't know this in the video game, but the faster pace doesn't let them think about this as much as in a turn-based game.

Using a draw based system would allow you to keep information hidden and therefore surprise your enemies with certain moves, but you lose some ability to handle skills like the video game does.

Given how important jumping and movement is in the game, you might keep the 3 jump moves on the board where you can use cooldowns, while the rest of your abilities are drawn each turn.

We would like to design the game to play without the use of a deck of cards. What I had in mind is Character cards containing everything you needed to play the game; abilities, stats, movements, and attacks,

Procylon
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You wouldn't have to use

You wouldn't have to use "decks". I think 10 or fewer cards per player would work pretty well on a draw system.

I am not sure how you would capture the breadth of character abilities found in the video game on one character card, especially including stats and text outlining how each move is supposed to hit enemies, unless that card happened to be extra large.

For instance, with Samus you might represent each of these lines as 1 card:
Jumps + Aerial Move
Basic attacks - Kicks, Sweeps, Punches, etc
Grabs
Energy Cannon
Bomb Ball
Energy Whip (Aerial Move)
Flamethrower
Missile
Homing Missile
Morph (Plus all Morph abilities)

I am thinking that if you use 1 card with the character info and as many abilities as you can fit on the card, you will have a character that has maybe 2-3 moves they get to spam repeatedly.

One card might look like this:

Energy Canon
Deals X% damage per turn charged. (Y turns max)
Charge can be interrupted.
Travels horizontally Z spaces per turn until striking a player or obstacle.

Kamon
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Procylon wrote:You wouldn't

Procylon wrote:
You wouldn't have to use "decks". I think 10 or fewer cards per player would work pretty well on a draw system.

I am not sure how you would capture the breadth of character abilities found in the video game on one character card, especially including stats and text outlining how each move is supposed to hit enemies, unless that card happened to be extra large.

For instance, with Samus you might represent each of these lines as 1 card:
Jumps + Aerial Move
Basic attacks - Kicks, Sweeps, Punches, etc
Grabs
Energy Cannon
Bomb Ball
Energy Whip (Aerial Move)
Flamethrower
Missile
Homing Missile
Morph (Plus all Morph abilities)

I am thinking that if you use 1 card with the character info and as many abilities as you can fit on the card, you will have a character that has maybe 2-3 moves they get to spam repeatedly.

One card might look like this:

Energy Canon
Deals X% damage per turn charged. (Y turns max)
Charge can be interrupted.
Travels horizontally Z spaces per turn until striking a player or obstacle.

So you're suggesting cards that represent techniques instead of having every playable option on the character card. That's probably a pretty solid idea since it would definitely be difficult to fit everything on one card. I'll have to play around with this idea and see what I can come up with.

Any other suggestions from anyone?

Jarec
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Joined: 12/27/2013
There are some things that

There are some things that I've been thinking about making a fighting game into a board game:

The relentless nature of fighting game would suggest to ditch the basic IGOUGO turn based and use some sort of reaction based system.

Mixups; are situations where an opponent forces the other in a bad spot where he has to essentially guess his next move, this is something that is easy to incorporate into a board game (by making them guess, or course) and are frequent in any fighting game.

Invincibility frames and Hitboxes; are essentially the things that tell which move beats the other when performed at the same time, this and many other nuances are pretty hard to implement in a board game. (I had some sort of token system in mind where players secretly choose a number between 1-5 representing the the distance and precise timing. Some moves would be strong in some areas, while completely missing in others. This of course would be guesswork too, like in the mixup situations, so I don't really know).

Blocking and Safety of the moves; in short when an "unsafe" move is blocked, it opens the attacker up for unopposed counterattack. Unsafe moves usually are more powerful in other areas. Blocking of course would be a reaction as normal (and as in Smash Bros., would be a used resource).

Well, these are some things to consider, and maybe get inspiration from.
There would be some more things to consider when trying to emulate a fighting game, but I think the more one tries to emulate one, more dull the end result would be.

Kroz1776
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Joined: 10/09/2013
A Few Comments

I'd just like to make a few points and state a few opinions.

First off, the damage percentage is different between different characters/moves. Kirby's throw does a different amount of damage than other characters. Also, in the first game, if you played on 200% Kirby's throw was downright OP in the sense that it was a one hit KO everytime. This was fixed in later games. Certain moves also had more killing power while others had more damaging power. The fan is a perfect example of this! It actually pulls them to you instead of knocking them away, and since it attacks so fast, if you're good, you can get them up past 100% dmg from 0%! Some attacks, while they do the same damage, knock characters further than other moves. There are moves that damage more than Captain Falcon's punch, but There aren't many that can knock someone quite as far as his punch. Same for Luigi's jump punch, or Jigglypuffs weird, I'm going to go to sleep on you now and blow your brains out move.

Also, the weight of a character I believe is more of a % than a subtract this amount kind of deal. I think a better representation of the different weights would be,

  • Light - 200% flight distance
  • Medium - 100% FD
  • Heavy - 50% FD

Now, onto moves, personally I like the idea of basic attacks being out there, but I think they shouldn't have cooldowns on them. They're basic attacks and meant to be spammed in the game and I believe in your game. Smash attacks and special attacks I could see having a cool down. Blocking I could see as well, but still allow you to use it, but if you use it three times, you lose your next turn.

To speed up the decision making, you could package in the game two sand timers. When it's time to choose a move, you flip the hourglass and you have to select a move by the time it runs out. You could give it say, 20 seconds. This speeds up the game and makes people think on their feet.

MrPretty
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Joined: 02/23/2013
More ideas

Platforming and 2d:
First question is are you looking for the game to take place on a 2d plane like smash bros? Sticking with your miniature based theme I would also question platform design. Because in smash bros you will often find yourself on a different platform maybe even directly on top of your opponent.

Jumping:
Jumping is a critical component of smash bros. it seems like you will have to simulate the double jump and special jump mechanism. Rolling dice to live is a horrible idea, but I also feel that getting hit at 100 percent is certain death.

Items, item throwing and blocking:
Another key component. Items could offer special abilities with limited uses. But throwing the item is a super fun aspect of people trying to recover from a knock off. Not to mention it opens up the possibility of a preemptive knock off. Blocking is the hardest because it's a reactive action. But so is dodging. Again this is a key component because it burns your ability to maneuver.

Of course I am trying to come as close as possible here trying to simulate the game and that might not be optimal for the board version.

My gut says that if your intent is to use miniatures, I would also assume an action point allowance system is applicable. And I would propose a way to gain additional action points by standing still. But the maximum action point spending should be based on jumping back to the platform. But there needs to be some element of simultaneous movement. Someone's suggestion of instants from magic is a fantastic idea... Except maybe instead of cards you build a magic-like stack based on action points spending. Of course not all points can be spent on the stack but reactive points should steal from your ability to maneuver.

You have a solid start here. I would like to see it blossom.

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